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Thread: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

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    Default Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    No longer just a Sci-fi scenario. With so much acreage devoted to bio-fuel production there is already a world - wide food shortage. Too much U.S. acreage
    has been planted with corn and soybeans are being under-produced. Grain prices
    are still rising and the demand for grain fed cattle in China and India keeps increasing. China is already tapping its SPR = "Strategic Pork Reserve " . Seriously.
    In order to keep its people fed , China has slaughtered millions of Army and other gov't owned hogs rather than import U.S. pork.

    If the U.S., Canada and Western Europe devoted 70% of all available acreage to bio-fuel production it would only generate enough ethanol and other bio fuels to meet 10 % of demand.

    The current heartbreaking choice is between buying groceries or prescription meds. Tomorrow it will be between buying bread and filling the gas tank.

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    There is going to be some pain yes, but in the end, it will get us out of dealing with crazy people with oil in their backyards.

    Corn being made into fuel is a government incentive.

    It is well established that switch grass (hay basically) makes more the bang and can actually get over Melonie's often retort that corn can't even economically power the tractor harvesting it.

    As newer technology comes on line that is more efficient, we have to trash some of these 30 year old laws made back in the 70's. Of course, getting a new law made is a lot easier than getting an old law unmade.

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    ^^^ this will never happen in the USA. Just like prescription drugs or heating oil, low income Americans will get enough food no matter what the cost via some sort of entitlement program or tax credit. Of course, this will be paid for by increased taxes on 'middle class' taxpayers, who also get the privelege of paying their own higher fuel bills and higher grocery bills and higher prescription drug prices along with paying a higher tax rate to subsidize the cost of health care, heating oil and groceries for their lower earning 'neighbors'.

    The 'tin foil hat crowd' would also tell you that one of the TRUE reasons for pushing ethanol mandates so hard was to cause a plausibly deniable large increase in worldwide food prices. Ultimately, the Arabs can't eat oil and the Chinese can't eat cheap manufactured goods.

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    Prescription drugs... People are too dependent on their little pills... It's gonna come back to bite them in the ass one day when they find out everything including their body has become resistant.

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    I think it is possible in regions that are too arid to be viable crop producing region (ie; everything must be trucked in). With the ever increasing cost of fuel, some people are going to have to make some really tough choices. Food , gas or medicine.

    I'm in Phoenix AZ today. There are Millions of people here and certainly not enough water to grow food or raise animals to feed the entire city. As fuel price continue to rise, it will get to the point that some people living here won't be able to afford to buy food.


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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    Prescription drugs... People are too dependent on their little pills... It's gonna come back to bite them in the ass one day when they find out everything including their body has become resistant.
    No kidding!! Those silly diabetic children who think they need insulin! They are so coddeled!! Don't even get me started on people who "think they need" medication...Bitch please!! People really need to toughen up!!

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    There is going to be some pain yes, but in the end, it will get us out of dealing with crazy people with oil in their backyards.

    Corn being made into fuel is a government incentive.

    It is well established that switch grass (hay basically) makes more the bang and can actually get over Melonie's often retort that corn can't even economically power the tractor harvesting it.

    As newer technology comes on line that is more efficient, we have to trash some of these 30 year old laws made back in the 70's. Of course, getting a new law made is a lot easier than getting an old law unmade.
    I'm afraid not. The U.S. has already run out of viable cropland i.e. all that can be planted is being planted. Deriving ethanol from corn is highly inefficient and USES plenty of energy to produce as Mel and I have repeatedly pointed out.

    The reason we have these dumb policies are strictly political. U.S. farmers haven't been this comparatively wealthy since the Civil War. All 2 million of them. That's right. Over 300 million Americans sucking it up to benefit 2 million people.

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    ^^^ well, in the larger sense, many other Americans benefit as well. Start with all of the uber-rich investors in Ethanol refineries, in Archer Daniels Midland stock etc. who get to pocket hefty dividends and who also get to take an ethanol production tax credit against other taxes that they owe. Then move on to the uber-rich 'absentee' owners of vast tracts of US farmland ( a highly publicized example is Manhattanite David Letterman who owns Iowa farmland and rents it out to local farmers), who get to pocket the US Gov't farm subsidy checks tax free. Besides the votes of the farmers themselves, this is also about creating and maintaining a very lucrative tax shelter for certain uber-rich Americans.


    As to the total potential productivity of US farmland, there is still quite a bit of 'marginal' farmland that is not being cultivated. The reason of course is that this acreage results in marginal crop yields without heavy investment in fertilizer, irrigation, pesticides etc. which in the past have compromised profitability. But if the food price is sky high this is no longer an issue ... providing that a nearby US city isn't going to fight over water resources being diverted to irrigation.

    Next move on to all Americans, via a reduction in the US trade deficit. This occurs of course because America is still a net exporter of basic foods, so if prices go up the trade deficit goes down !

    The 'tin foil hat' crowd will also tell you that certain people in certain back rooms are preparing for the day when food exports will no longer be a matter of having money to pay for the food, but a matter of US gov't policy as to whether a highly motivated would-be food buyer should be 'approved' to purchase US food exports or not. This will come in very handy when the day comes that China / Middle East / Russia / Venezuela etc. publicly pursue policies that are contrary to the interests of the USA.
    Last edited by Melonie; 03-04-2008 at 02:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    All above posters omitted seafood (and "fish farms") from the equation. Although not everyones a seafood lover, 75% of earth's surface IS made up of water.

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    ^^^ so far the US Dep't of Agriculture doesn't offer tax money funded subsidy payments for 'fish farms', nor does the IRS offer tax credits for the production of fish ... which is probably a major reason that there aren't too many 'fish farms' around !

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by minnow View Post
    All above posters omitted seafood (and "fish farms" from the equation. Although not everyones a seafood lover, 75% of earth's surface IS made up of water.
    Not to mention the many indoor greenhouses that exist already or the ones that can be created in the future. There is also the option of having them underground as well. Plus greenhouses can be maintained 24 hours a day 365 days a year. Things like that can help balance the difference between land being used for biofuels and those which used to be used to grow food.

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyLuck View Post
    Not to mention the many indoor greenhouses that exist already or the ones that can be created in the future. There is also the option of having them underground as well. Plus greenhouses can be maintained 24 hours a day 365 days a year. Things like that can help balance the difference between land being used for biofuels and those which used to be used to grow food.
    WHERE do you think the space will be to have enough greenhouses to feed more than 300 MILLION people ? In urban areas ? On highway medians ? Great ! Now our fruits and veggies will be chock full of lead, mercury and other heavy metals to go along with tuna and salmon.
    Plus, you'd have to supply the energy to heat the greenhouses and keep the lights on ?( Remember PHOTOSYNTHESIS ? ) And the WATER to irrigate since they won't be exposed to rainfall and snow ?

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    [QUOTE=Deogol;1430285]...Corn being made into fuel is a government incentive...[QUOTE]From this link,

    http://www.carepublic.com/blog.html?...tom_mcclintock

    The following quote:
    -----------
    "The Air Resources Board has now mandated that all fuel sold within California in the next three years must have at least ten percent ethanol.

    Think about this for a moment. It takes one acre of corn to produce 350 gallons of ethanol. There are 15 BILLION gallons of gasoline sold in California each year. That means in order to meet the ten percent requirement in three years, we’re going to have to convert 4.3 million acres of farmland to ethanol production in a state that has a grant total of 11 million acres producing crops of any kind.

    And for what, exactly? The governor told the United Nations last month:

    “Last year in California, we enacted groundbreaking greenhouse gas emission standards.
    “We enacted the world’s first low carbon fuel standard.
    “Do I believe California’s standards will solve global warming? No.
    “What we’re doing is changing the dynamic, preparing the way and encouraging the future...”

    So even the individual most responsible for this economically catastrophic public policy ADMITS that it’s not going to solve global warming. He just wants to set an example.

    In that singular respect, I predict that he will succeed beyond his wildest dreams.

    Do you think the public is going to get a very rude awakening when they discover that the sky isn’t falling, the emperor isn’t wearing new clothes, and you cannot shut down vast sectors of the economy while expecting a new wave of prosperity?
    -----------
    I found the amount of cropland in California listed at 11.4 million acres, so the amount of cropland devoted to ethanol if corn is used is approaching 40% of most of the available cropland in California. Should have some interesting side effects at the grocery stores here.

    As to fish farms, perhaps it will depend upon whether there will be any fish left to farm,

    http://www.mbayaq.org/cr/cr_seafoodwatch/sfw_of.asp

    So Malthus may yet be proven to be correct, despite the intervention of various technologies delaying his prediction.

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    WHERE do you think the space will be to have enough greenhouses to feed more than 300 MILLION people ? In urban areas ? On highway medians ? Great ! Now our fruits and veggies will be chock full of lead, mercury and other heavy metals to go along with tuna and salmon.
    Plus, you'd have to supply the energy to heat the greenhouses and keep the lights on ?( Remember PHOTOSYNTHESIS ? ) And the WATER to irrigate since they won't be exposed to rainfall and snow ?
    Seriously dude- you are so incredibly close minded and lacking in creative thought process. Try and be a bit more innovative and you will see that the world isn’t doomed or such a bad place after all

    Now on to your questions- I said it would HELP balance things. I did not say it was the end all answer to replace all the land used for biofuels rather than food.

    As for where these thing can be created the possibilities are huge. As for light needed to grow things, duh, hello- ever heard of grow lights plus some indoor places use skylights too. Where to get the energy for lights? Solar, wind and hydro power. Water is a bit more of a challenge but things like rain/snow collection could easily be put to use.

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyLuck View Post
    Seriously dude- you are so incredibly close minded and lacking in creative thought process. Try and be a bit more innovative and you will see that the world isn’t doomed or such a bad place after all

    Now on to your questions- I said it would HELP balance things. I did not say it was the end all answer to replace all the land used for biofuels rather than food.

    As for where these thing can be created the possibilities are huge. As for light needed to grow things, duh, hello- ever heard of grow lights plus some indoor places use skylights too. Where to get the energy for lights? Solar, wind and hydro power. Water is a bit more of a challenge but things like rain/snow collection could easily be put to use.

    I'm "close minded" ? No ! I'm open to all sorts of ideas INCLUDING those with which I disagree. I'm capable of changing my mind in the face of new facts ; or more facts or better facts.

    I didn't say the world was doomed BUT we ought to take note of certain realities.
    For one thing, the Earth's population is 6 billion and growing. Just in my lifetime, it has tripled. China's population has gone from 600 million to 1.2 BILLION; India's from 500 million to over a Billion; the U.S. from 175 million to 320 million.

    The number of arable acres in the U.S. has DECLINED. Millions of acres of farmland
    were converted to housing tracts, strip malls and shopping centers. So WHERE are you going to put all those greenhouses ? And the underground ones wil have to be lit and heated which uses energy.

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    ^ Learn to read. I already answered your questions, Stoner. I'm done with your preconceived notions for today. I can only talk to a brick wall (aka you) for so long. I've made my points. Take them or leave them. I really don't care

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyLuck View Post
    ^ Learn to read. I already answered your questions, Stoner. I'm done with your preconceived notions for today. I can only talk to a brick wall (aka you) for so long. I've made my points. Take them or leave them. I really don't care
    You NEVER said WHERE you'd put them ! Or HOW you'd collect rain and snow
    in Phoenix or Las Vegas !

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by VegasPrincess View Post
    No kidding!! Those silly diabetic children who think they need insulin! They are so coddeled!! Don't even get me started on people who "think they need" medication...Bitch please!! People really need to toughen up!!

    Insulin comes in little pills?? People want an immediate cure for everything, they don't want to wait for their body to fix things normally... Why do you think Pharmacies and Pharmacists are in such high demand? Because people suddenly are getting more and more sick? Try and think a little about the issue before you respond...

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    Insulin comes in little pills?? People want an immediate cure for everything, they don't want to wait for their body to fix things normally... Why do you think Pharmacies and Pharmacists are in such high demand? Because people suddenly are getting more and more sick? Try and think a little about the issue before you respond...
    I read it as sarcasm.

    Don't worry about it. You would not believe how blown out of proportion some of my posts have been made into.

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    Featured Member minnow's Avatar
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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ so far the US Dep't of Agriculture doesn't offer tax money funded subsidy payments for 'fish farms', nor does the IRS offer tax credits for the production of fish ... which is probably a major reason that there aren't too many 'fish farms' around !
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Are we talking overall food supply, or just fixating on 1 source that just happens to have govt. subsidies? see www.mindfully.org/Water/Fish-Farming-Overtake-Cattle.htm
    When it takes 7kg of grain to yield 1kg of live weight livestock, and 1kg live weight fish requires< 2kg of grain, the productivity gains are incentive in themselves. Granted, most of this is taking place in developing countries (China, Vietnam, Indonesia, etal). A visit to supermarket seafood section (read the labels) bears this out. If 1 area gets squeezed, another source can move in to fill the breach.
    FWIW, I haven't noticed any shortage of beef, pork, or fish in various supermarkets, nor have I seen a slew of steak restaurants shuttering their doors.

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    Granted, most of this is taking place in developing countries (China, Vietnam, Indonesia, etal
    This is happening for a REASON. The reason of course is that food producers in China / Vietnam / Indonesia can measure their net profits without regard for gov't subsidy payments, tax consequences etc. whereas in America the gov't subsidies and tax factors have become just as large as the 'free market' profits in the case of some foods.

    I haven't noticed any shortage of beef, pork, or fish in various supermarkets, nor have I seen a slew of steak restaurants shuttering their doors.
    this is also happening for the very same reason. In China there is a huge shortage of pork ... because average Chinese workers wages are now rising to the point where pork is 'affordable' (or was, until the recent price increases). There is no similar pork shortage in the USA, because average low skill American workers are buying less expensive hamburger.

    On the subject of steak restaurants, for a fact Max & Erma's, Ponderosa and some other 'midscale' restaurant chains are in big trouble where profits are concerned. The reason of course is that average American workers can no longer afford to go to these restaurants, and are taking their business 'downscale' to Wendys or McD's or BK. Of course 'upscale' restaurants aren't having similar profitability issues, because if you're 'rich' enough to go to an upscale restaurant in the first place it doesn't matter whether your fillet mignon dinner is priced at $20 or $30 or $40.

    Circling back to the topic of this thread, where America is concerned there is again zero chance that anybody will wind up starving. Our social welfare programs will make sure that low income Americans can afford hamburger and the occasional trip to Wendy's or McD's or BK. However, as food prices rise the cost of such social welfare programs also rises. This additional cost is ultimately paid for by higher taxes on average Americans (or their employers) plus a higher percentage of their after tax incomes having to be spent on more expensive food. The eventual result of those higher taxes and higher food prices is that average Americans, instead of buying dinner at a 'midscale' restaurant for their own family, are buying dinner at a 'downscale' restaurant for both their own family and their low income neighbor's family.

    In Asia of course, the 'poor' can't afford meat at all, whereas the workers want to buy pork to the point where it is now in short supply (China actually has a strategic PORK reserve to mitigate shortages since they refuse to import America's pork surplus !). This serves as a strong incentive for poor 'peasants' to move to the Chinese cities, get jobs, become consumers of meat and a lot of other things, save money, grow the Chinese economy etc.

    In America, arguably the exact opposite will eventually happen. Sooner or later, some American workers are going to reach the conclusion that with progressive tax rates and social welfare benefit eligibility being the way they are, the workers are 'busting their asses' to achieve a standard of living that is only marginally better than the standard of living their 'poor' neighbor achieves by working sporadically thus becoming and remaining eligible for social welfare benefits. In the past, issues such as 'pride' acted as a deterrent. However, with today's new 'walk away from your mortgage' - go bankrupt on your credit card - the gov't will come to the rescue philosophies, that deterrent has all but completely eroded. However, as more and more American workers are either forced out of their jobs or choose to stop 'busting their asses', the tax revenues thus 'wealth transfer' necessary to pay for a gov't subsidized 'minimum acceptable standard of living' for 'poor' Americans dries up. This in turn will eventually bankrupt American cities and states. At that point the 'minimum acceptable standard of living' for 'poor' Americans will have to drop ... which might actually translate into some Americans actually experiencing hunger.

    ~

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 03-06-2008 at 04:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    On the subject of steak restaurants, for a fact Max & Erma's, Ponderosa and some other 'midscale' restaurant chains are in big trouble where profits are concerned. The reason of course is that average American workers can no longer afford to go to these restaurants, and are taking their business 'downscale' to Wendys or McD's or BK. Of course 'upscale' restaurants aren't having similar profitability issues, because if you're 'rich' enough to go to an upscale restaurant in the first place it doesn't matter whether your fillet mignon dinner is priced at $20 or $30 or $40 (snip)
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    What does this have to do with supposed "food shortage"? Anytime there's a recession (officially declared or defacto), people will "downscale". Maybe that is why I was recently able to buy some London Broil "on sale" @ $2.99/lb. @ local grocery store. When consumer demand/inventory miscalculations occur, prices drop, and , yes, some stores/chain restaurants go out of business. In the concrete jungle known as Northwest Highway (Dallas metro area- home to many stripclubs, restaurants, etc), I did witness a Whoppingly Large Number of ONE Outback Steakhouse closing down. A more upscale Papadeaux(sp??) remained open.
    Then again, so did a nearby Jasons Deli, and a Mongolian BBQ. Maybe more time strapped people were opting for quicker self serve lines than traditional sit down wait to be served meal. Or,people that weren't so time strapped headed to nearby Mens Club for their steak fix. Starvation in America anyone...

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    What does this have to do with supposed "food shortage"?
    Where America is concerned obviously there isn't any 'food shortage'. Eric Stoner's original post never attempted to make that point ... nor have any other posters. The actual point was that greatly expanded corn and soybean planting in the US for non-food use has greatly increased the PRICES for farm produce, as well as increasing prices for meats, dairy products etc. which are affected by higher feed costs.

    Eric's real point was that increasing food prices are now in danger of creating a situation where low income Americans cannot afford to buy food and also buy gasoline (and by implication medicine, heating / utility bills etc). There was never a question of an actual shortage of food in America, only a shortage of money with which to pay for more expensive food.

    Other countries, however, may be in a very different situation. Many countries are reliant on (primarily US funded) food handouts from the UN ... and while the US is still budgeting the same number of dollars to be given away this now buys significantly less food. Some countries have trade barriers erected to prevent the import of US foods (i.e. China will not allow the import of US pork, for example), thus these countries may face actual shortages. Other countries (like Mexico for example) would LIKE to import a ton of US corn since they do not have the fertile land / water to grow enough domestic corn to put a tortilla on every table. However, with the current 'world' price of corn for import, there simply aren't enough pesos left over in the paychecks of Mexican workers to be able to afford the purchase of tortillas anymore.

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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    WHERE do you think the space will be to have enough greenhouses to feed more than 300 MILLION people ? In urban areas ? On highway medians ? Great ! Now our fruits and veggies will be chock full of lead, mercury and other heavy metals to go along with tuna and salmon.
    Plus, you'd have to supply the energy to heat the greenhouses and keep the lights on ?( Remember PHOTOSYNTHESIS ? ) And the WATER to irrigate since they won't be exposed to rainfall and snow ?
    Low earth orbit greenhouse satellite, solar panels, and desalinated sea water. Duh.


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    Default Re: Real starvation in the U.S.A. ?

    ^^^ that would work ... at a price of $100 per tomato !

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