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Thread: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

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    Default New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    (snip)"Gov. Eliot Spitzer offered a vague public apology today after he was linked to an international call girl ring.

    In a brief, cryptic statement broadcast on national television the first-term governor, who attempted to make ethics the cornerstone of his administration, said he "acted in a way that violates the obligations to my family, that violates my or any sense of right and wrong."

    News reports linked Spitzer to the indicted Emperors Club VIP, an upscale escort service that supplied well-heeled johns "fashion models, pageant winners and exquisite students." for up to $5,500 an hour.

    Spitzer is believed to be the mysterious "Client 9" who arranged to have a prostitute meet him at a Washington D.C. hotel this past Feb. 13. "(snip)


    NY's governor Spitzer, like many other democratic candidates in the 2006 election, ran on a platform of reforming the 'culture of corruption' that supposedly surrounded his republican predecessor. Apparently the 'culture of corruption' doesn't exist for democrats unless one gets caught by a federal sting operation (which in this case accidentally caught gov Spitzer on tape as part of a federal wiretap aimed at the international upper echelon escort service).

    However, this is already raising larger questions in regard to the ethics of other prominent Democrats ... among them Barack Obama's alleged association with a Middle Eastern terrorist money launderer, the underlying reasons for Hilary Clinton's refusal to release her personal tax returns etc. Also, the political pundits are already pointing out that this is what happens when voters cast their votes based on campaign rhetoric and mainstream media puff pieces, rather than doing their own research.

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    I am not big on guilt by association. All kinds of people from all parts of the country get into the political ride.

    I do know most of these people are looking out for A #1 and it ain't us!

    A democrat fucking around isn't really new news.

    Since he was big on harboring illegal aliens I say good riddance. I can't believe he wouldn't be ashamed of breaking those laws.

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    ^^^ the 'tin foil hat' crowd would point out that democrats breaking prostitution laws or democrats breaking immigration laws have an important point in common ... that their political philosophy believes that neither of these 'crimes' should actually be a crime. Nevertheless the law is still the law until enough votes (or supreme court appointments) can be mustered to change it, a governor takes an oath to uphold the law, and this governor was caught red-handed.

    Actually, the 'tin foil hat' crowd would point out that the likely reason that this international high end escort service operating out of Washington DC attracted a federal investigation was for reasons having essentially nothing to do with prostitution, and a whole lot to do with Mata Hari.

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Indeed, neither prostitution nor immigration should involve the government.

    As for the Mata Hari stuff, unnecessary. They were probably just horny and power tripping.

    Nuremberg didn't save anybody adhering to "the law is the law".

    I'm not mad at him for renting prostitutes, I'm mad at him for ever occupying the office of chief thief in New York State.
    You can't love something you think is flawless - me


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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ the 'tin foil hat' crowd would point out that democrats breaking prostitution laws or democrats breaking immigration laws have an important point in common ... that their political philosophy believes that neither of these 'crimes' should actually be a crime. Nevertheless the law is still the law until enough votes (or supreme court appointments) can be mustered to change it, a governor takes an oath to uphold the law, and this governor was caught red-handed.

    Actually, the 'tin foil hat' crowd would point out that the likely reason that this international high end escort service operating out of Washington DC attracted a federal investigation was for reasons having essentially nothing to do with prostitution, and a whole lot to do with Mata Hari.
    Actually, as I pointed out in the similar thread in Club Chat; the investigation
    started with Spitzer which led to the escorts. Not the other way around.

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    One point I have yet to see in any of these related topic is that Spitzer was super tough on corporate crime. I think that was the #1 reason he was busted.

    In the age of Enron, Halliburton, etc. going after corporate crime is often dangerous business for those who attempt it.

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyLuck View Post
    One point I have yet to see in any of these related topic is that Spitzer was super tough on corporate crime. I think that was the #1 reason he was busted.

    In the age of Enron, Halliburton, etc. going after corporate crime is often dangerous business for those who attempt it.
    One has nothing to do with the other. Spitzer hasn't been busted for anything. Yet.
    Do you think he should tough it out a la Bill Clinton and Larry Craig ?

    Spitzer was dumb enough to send money from a Campaign account to the Emperor's Club forcing the bank to alert the IRS under money laundering laws. The account history was enough to justify further investigation and a wiretap.

    A former escort became an informant who explained to the Feds how the dummy or shell corporations worked. Spitzer was dumb enough to use the mails and a cell phone owned by and paid for N.Y.S. and you think this part of a "vast right wing conspiracy" ? He was a long time customer who had money on account.

    He did not make many friends on Wall Street. After what he did to Dick Grasso and Langone it was no surprise that the news of his involvement generated a cheer on the floor of the NYSE. BUT, he didn't make many friends in Albany either. His arrogance; his sanctimony; his mean and vindictive way of doing things alienated many in his own party.

    One undercurrent in this mess was Spitzer's selective prosecution of escort agencies while A.G. He patronized an agency controlled by one "family" and went after their competition.

    On top of everything else, he expected to have unsafe, unprotected sex just because he was paying big money..

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Control of a country's borders is precisely the business of government. It is one of the reasons governments exist.

    Control of its citizens' sex lives isn't.

    Spitzer is a dope and, as far as most people who are suppose to be in the know, a hypocritical, mean spirited, man. There is plenty there to hang him on but fucking high end working girls shouldn't be one of them.

    Related solely to the sex part, it's an issue between him, the women he paid, and his wife [of course]. No one else.
    Fiat justitia, pereat mundus.


    BTW, while we are on the subject, is it needed to point out the obvious: That it is just possible that if you are willing to judge the worth of someone simply by what you read on a website about them it might say a whole hell of a lot more about you than it says about the person you are judging?

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Prostitution should be legal.

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Quote Originally Posted by dlabtot View Post
    Prostitution should be legal.
    Yeah, so long as you can still reach the child exploiters and slavers.

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden_Rule View Post
    Control of a country's borders is precisely the business of government. It is one of the reasons governments exist.

    Control of its citizens' sex lives isn't.

    Spitzer is a dope and, as far as most people who are suppose to be in the know, a hypocritical, mean spirited, man. There is plenty there to hang him on but fucking high end working girls shouldn't be one of them.

    Related solely to the sex part, it's an issue between him, the women he paid, and his wife [of course]. No one else.
    Notwithstanding the fact that he prosecuted escorts while an ADA and agencies
    as AG ?

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Why couldn't you?

    Child exploiters are pedophiles. Still a crime if prostitution is legal.

    Those who traffic in human beings are still kidnappers. Still a crime if prostitution is legal.

    Make it a compounding offense, like hate crimes. If you exploit a child by prostituting it the charge is pedophilia with a prostitution compounding.

    Same for sex trafficking.
    Fiat justitia, pereat mundus.


    BTW, while we are on the subject, is it needed to point out the obvious: That it is just possible that if you are willing to judge the worth of someone simply by what you read on a website about them it might say a whole hell of a lot more about you than it says about the person you are judging?

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Notwithstanding the fact that he prosecuted escorts while an ADA and agencies
    as AG ?
    Like I said, a hypocrite.
    Fiat justitia, pereat mundus.


    BTW, while we are on the subject, is it needed to point out the obvious: That it is just possible that if you are willing to judge the worth of someone simply by what you read on a website about them it might say a whole hell of a lot more about you than it says about the person you are judging?

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden_Rule View Post
    Related solely to the sex part, it's an issue between him, the women he paid, and his wife [of course]. No one else.
    I disagree. In his position as Govenor he is part of making and enforcing laws. Therefore he has a responsibility to follow the laws. By breaking a law (soliciting prostituition) he has failed in his responsibility. Thus it is an issue for the judicial system and the people of New York who elected him expecting him to do his job.

    "should be legal" or "shouldn't be" is irrelevant, because right now it is ILLEGAL.

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    One has nothing to do with the other.
    Obviously, I disagree.

    It's just a gut feeling I have that he was targeted for exposure because he was tough on corporate crime. At this point it's just an opinion though & it may likely stay that way unless something else comes out- fact wise.

    Another opinion I have is that the government should not have any place in CONSENTING ADULTS sex lives regardless of political party, religion or anything else for that matter.

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    it's pretty difficult to make prostitution legal, since you have to define what sex acts are 'legal' and what's not. you also have to define WHERE you can legally sell the sex. and what constitutes a 'legal provider'.

    and since this means a bunch of stuff customers are gunna want will be illegal, you are back to the original problem of how reduce harm-risk for the girls (or guys) doing it.

    decriminalisation is not ideal, but it at least acknowledges that such private work (like childcare and housecleaning) is sort of beyond the government's ability to reasonably legislate.

    legalisation generally just benefits whatever the equivalent of walmart is for private work at the expense of all the small-scale operators doing it.

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    A Democrat in a sex scandal? Didn't see that coming. Next thing you know, they'll catch a televangelist.

    Ordinarily, I'd call this a problem between his wife and him, but if he did as alleged, and if he used public or campaign funds, then it's open season on New York governors. Obviously, the electorate can make their own judgments on how this plays into their voting choice, so his career is megahosed anyway, in all likelihood.

    Whether he was pursued by corporate avengers or not, and I choose to believe "not" until there's at least a shred of evidence, then if he did as alleged, he did so knowing the consequences, so he deserves the consequences when they catch up.

    Didn't the escort cross state lines to get there? Isn't that, um, another potential big Federal issue?

    Sux2B him right now. Man.

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Spitzer was dumb enough to send money from a Campaign account to the Emperor's Club forcing the bank to alert the IRS under money laundering laws. The account history was enough to justify further investigation and a wiretap
    indeed ! Todays news updates are saying that the investigation was started based on bank 'suspicious financial activity' reports, which amount to some $80,000 being transferred out of Spitzer's (campaign) accounts to 'front' corporations ... which were eventually tracked down to the high end escort agency although early suspicions were actually related to possible political bribes.

    Also today's news updates are saying that two potential federal charges may yet come down on Spitzer's head. One is 'money laundering' i.e. channeling of (campaign) money through 'shell' companies. The other is the Mann Act, since Spitzer paid for the escort to travel across state lines from NY to DC for purposes of prostitution. There has been no mention of any charges being brought against Spitzer for 'soliciting' prostitution.

    Additionally, the transactions appear to go back over a period of several years ... which merely adds to the incredible hypocrisy level. There have been comments made that Spitzer as AG was patronizing one escort agency (reputedly operated by a certain 'family') while at the same time prosecuting another escort agency (reputedly operated by a different 'family'). Thus any speculation that this 'outing' was related to Spitzer's business enemies may be partially true, but is likely to involve the waterfront rather than wall st. !

    Regardless of what sort of back room deals are under consideration, Spitzer has a huge problem in that his oath as governor requires him to uphold the law ... thus any commission of a crime provides solid grounds for impeachment. Arguably a code of ethics also applies (oxymoron in NY state LOL), which also makes him vulnerable to impeachment without the necessity of a conviction. At the moment prominent NY state republican leaders have given Spitzer 48 hours to resign, or impeachment proceedings will be set in motion against him.

    Ultimately, Spitzer may or may not attempt to hang in there ... doing so gives him leverage re a possible appointment to Hilary Clinton's potentially soon to be vacated senate seat after the upcoming election, doing so also gives him leverage in regard to plea bargains with the feds, and doing so also denies a prominent NY republican from possibly being 'bumped' up the ladder. However, at this point Spitzer is a non re-electable 'lame duck' ... a very public embarrassment to the democratic party ... and a potential presidential election campaign 'spoiler' for Hilary Clinton (who has still not agreed to make public her own tax returns) and potentially Barack Obama as well (who already has some suspicious personal finance questions of his own to answer re his Chicago mansion, a lobbyies, and a middle eastern multi-millionaire also associated with 'money laundering').
    Last edited by Melonie; 03-11-2008 at 11:12 PM.

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    I disagree. In his position as Govenor he is part of making and enforcing laws. Therefore he has a responsibility to follow the laws. By breaking a law (soliciting prostituition) he has failed in his responsibility. Thus it is an issue for the judicial system and the people of New York who elected him expecting him to do his job.

    "should be legal" or "shouldn't be" is irrelevant, because right now it is ILLEGAL.
    You misread what I wrote. I said, "related solely to the sex part".

    I am sorry if I wasn't clear. I was referencing that they are going to make this, at least in part, about the infidelity between husband and wife. "Character issue", they will say. "Hypocritical bullshit! The vast majority of you are fucking around. ", will be my response.

    People with power almost always do because power makes it easy and people are corruptible, even if only in small ways like getting some on the side. Most of us do it because we can and we just haven't been caught yet." I fuck around sometimes myself. I'm just candid enough to admit that I do. At least in such places as I am sure it can't hurt me to do so. [yep, real brave soul ]

    Side Note: Broken laws are broken laws. I'd change the ones regarding consensual solicitation and prostitution between adults in this country if I could. Only because they make no sense to me. Three thousand years of recorded history says if you have a woman who wants to sell sex and a man who wants to purchase it these two individuals are going to find each other. Yet we are still trying to keep it from happening. Waste of time and effort, not to mention resources.

    For the sake of society it is much better, and makes far more sense, to attempt to control it than stop it. Zone it. Mandate condom use and medical check ups. License it and tax it. Fees and licensing money to be dedicated to any social issues brought about by its existence. Clinics. Counseling. Training and job placement for sex workers who want to get out of the life. Etc.

    Society has control. You actually save a little cash because enforcement becomes easier. You can dedicate resources to other sex related issues that do require them, like trafficking and kiddie porn. Zoning keeps it out of the public eye and the payment for any social ills is born, mostly, by those involved so the general pop doesn't have to foot the bill.

    Just common sense in my book.
    Fiat justitia, pereat mundus.


    BTW, while we are on the subject, is it needed to point out the obvious: That it is just possible that if you are willing to judge the worth of someone simply by what you read on a website about them it might say a whole hell of a lot more about you than it says about the person you are judging?

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    well, our illustrious governor is now an ex-governor ! Apparently the fact that the money laundering investigation turned up something like $80k worth of Spitzer (campaign fund) expenses being paid to escort services over a period of many years shot down any attempt by the governor to plead 'I made a mistake and I'm sorry'. In his mind, the only mistake was apparently getting caught.

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyLuck View Post
    Obviously, I disagree.

    It's just a gut feeling I have that he was targeted for exposure because he was tough on corporate crime. At this point it's just an opinion though & it may likely stay that way unless something else comes out- fact wise.

    Another opinion I have is that the government should not have any place in CONSENTING ADULTS sex lives regardless of political party, religion or anything else for that matter.
    Do "feelings" trump the facts, as known, for you ? Who targeted him ? His own bank ? Their the ones who alerted the IRS. There are a number of Federal laws REQUIRING them to do that. When the IRS ran into the escort agency they called the FBI.
    According to you, Spitzer shouldn't have been investigated ? How about Larry Craig ? or David Visser ? or McGreevy ?

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Spitzer's wire transfers came from his personal accounts at North Fork bank. There is no conclusive evidence yet that suggests it came from campaign funds.

    I'm nowhere near excusing his actions, but this was a speculative canard that needed correcting.

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno View Post
    Whether he was pursued by corporate avengers or not, and I choose to believe "not" until there's at least a shred of evidence, then if he did as alleged, he did so knowing the consequences, so he deserves the consequences when they catch up.
    Oh yes, I agree completely. He knew the risks, took the chance and will now face the fallout of his actions. No question about that for me at all.

    I just think it's odd that he is the one and only person being exposed in this whole sting operation of that very pricey escort agency. With what those girls were charging there must be other "big fish" on that hook.

    Which reminds me. What ever happen to that D.C. Madame case? Wasn't there supposed to be tons of political people using her service? I wonder why they never got exposed?
    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    they weren't democrats

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    Default Re: New York's 'crusader' for improved ethics will resign or face impeachment ...

    Spitzer's wire transfers came from his personal accounts at North Fork bank. There is no conclusive evidence yet that suggests it came from campaign funds.
    the investigation's wiretap warrant was issued based on the possibility of misuse of campaign funds and/or bribes. Agreed that no evidence has been made public in regard to either of these suspicions. Now that the governor has resigned, it is highly doubtful that any official charges will be brought against him on any count. That's also the way it usually goes for democratic politicians.


    I just think it's odd that he is the one and only person being exposed in this whole sting operation of that very pricey escort agency. With what those girls were charging there must be other "big fish" on that hook.
    some VERY big fish actually ... UK press briefly ran a story that a billionaire British Earl was also a client of the same agency, but the story has apparently been pulled.

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