Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

  1. #1
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

    (snip)"The white working class vote

    I am not referring to the ongoing and intense discussion of The Reverend Jeremiah Wright. Wright is a separate problem for Obama. Whether Obama has been, or will be, permanently weakened by his long and close association with Wright, or has soared above it with his Philadelphia speech, is not the subject of these thoughts. Something much simpler than the answer to that question has been starkly apparent for some time, certainly since well before the Wright eruption: Consistently, and by large margins, Obama has lost the white working class vote to Clinton in all states critical to the Democratic ticket this November. The lurking suspicion -- impossible to verify or refute -- is that much of Clinton's handsome portion of this demographic will not go to Obama in the November election.

    This has grave implications for a Obama, at least in Ohio, Michigan, Florida, Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Working class whites have voted heavily for Clinton in these states (or, in the case of Pennsylvania, will soon do so). The return of the Reagan Democrats, not the odious fulminations of Reverend Wright and their consequences, is what is now driving Democratic Big Wigs to the bourbon cabinet. Predictably, the media either refuses to acknowledge this now established voting pattern or, in some cases, actually denies its existence.

    The latest example of denial is by Dan Balz, staff writer for the Washington Post, who remarked in his March 17, 2008 article purporting to analyze the white male vote, that Wisconsin (where Obama did relatively well among white males overall) and Ohio (where Clinton crushed him, 66-33%, among white working class males) are "states with striking similarities." It appears Mr. Balz has not looked at the two states closely and thoughtfully. In the crucial details of racial demographics, Ohio and Wisconsin are worlds apart; and it is through these details that Obama's white working class problem can be understood.


    A tale of two states

    Here are some pertinent facts about Wisconsin and Ohio: Wisconsin has about 5.5 million residents, Ohio about 11.3 million. Wisconsin is about 89% white and 5.7% black, while Ohio is 85% white and about 11.5% black. The small (but statistically significant) difference in percentage of blacks living in the two states was the least part of Obama's problem in Ohio. Obama's real difficulty in Ohio - and it has been a consistent one for him in similar states -- is the widely dispersed and interwoven location of the two racial groups in that state, versus their relative isolation from each other in Wisconsin. Here, I warn the reader, we are entering emotionally rough terrain for those schooled only in the mandatory American racial catechism of the last forty years.

    For at least the last two generations America's racial policies have been predicated on a near religious belief that increased contact between the races will produce harmony, good feelings and positive relationships. Our experience during this period has been uniformly the opposite. Urban white liberals have fled the public schools by the hundreds of thousands, self-segregation by blacks on university campuses is widespread, resentment in the workplace (by both races) ubiquitous etc. In his Philadelphia speech Obama himself referred -- perhaps the first such reference by a black politician without open contempt -- to the concerns that many white Americans have about blacks.

    The salient fact is this: in settings where the two races deal more directly with each other, and get to know each other better, through shared public schools, workplaces, public conveyances, universities, etc., they seem to like each other less, not more.

    This fact is laid bare, at least for anyone willing to see it, by the Democratic primary results thus far.

    Consider the following additional facts about Wisconsin and Ohio, those states with "striking similarities."

    In Wisconsin more than 75% of the black population resides in the Milwaukee area, a metropolitan area that accounts for only 32% of Wisconsin's total population. This means that in Wisconsin the white portion of 68% of the state's population (which is more heavily white than the state as a whole because of the concentration of blacks in Milwaukee) rarely if ever encounters blacks. Thus, for a high proportion of Wisconsin whites, blacks are abstractions, approached most closely by turning on Oprah.

    Now consider Ohio: to begin with, the black population, in percentage terms, is nearly double that of Wisconsin (11.5% versus 5.7%). But its dispersion within and among the white population is the real difference between the two states' racial demographics. In Ohio 80% of the state's 11.3 million residents reside in the eight largest metropolitan areas (Columbus, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Toledo, Akron, Dayton, Youngstown and Canton). These cities contain, in the order listed, 24%, 51%, 43%, 24%, 28%, 43%, 44% and 21% black residents. Thus, in Ohio a very high percentage of the white population, particularly its working class component, has regular contact with blacks, or, if living in outer suburbs, has direct contact with other whites who do.

    The widely disparate residential patterns of the races is obvious: in Wisconsin, the vast majority of whites live, work, shop, and send their children to school in a world that includes few if any blacks; in Ohio the reverse is true, and the races regularly brush up against each other in all these categories of daily life. Judging from how well Obama did among white voters in these states (satisfactorily in Wisconsin, abysmally in Ohio) increased racial familiarity is not a boon to the Illinois Senator.


    The sad truth about racial interaction

    Good debaters (and those on the ideological Left) will point out that I have linked two phenomena causally (racial interaction, on the one hand, and disinclination by working class whites to vote for a black candidate, on the other) without actually demonstrating cause and effect. But fortunately it does not take a Ford Foundation grant and a two year study to see what is happening. In this year's Democratic primary results the two phenomena -- extensive racial interaction and poor outcomes for Obama among working class white voters -- have been so universally conjoined that cause and effect can be reasonably presumed.

    Without exception, the Wisconsin pattern (little interracial contact) and the Ohio pattern (much more such contact) have correlated with identically opposite results throughout the Clinton/Obama battles: every state outside the South where Obama carried the white vote and won the primary or caucus was one with a small to negligible black population (Wyoming, Vermont, Wisconsin, Maine, Washington, Nebraska, Minnesota, Kansas, Utah, North Dakota, Idaho, Alaska and Iowa); in every state where a substantial and widely dispersed black population regularly interacts with whites, Obama lost the white vote and lost the primary: Texas, Ohio, Rhode Island, California, New Jersey, and Massachusetts. I have omitted the candidates' home states (New York for Clinton, Illinois and Hawaii for Obama). Pennsylvania, where Clinton has a commanding lead, will follow the Ohio pattern, as will Florida and Michigan in the increasingly unlikely event of do overs.

    Simply put, blacks and whites are not doing well together in America, circa 2008. Obama's battle with Clinton, all the pretty rhetoric notwithstanding, is remorselessly exposing that undiscussed fact. Obama is hurt by this -- severely it would appear -- in states where the races interact extensively, particularly at the working class level; while, in states with few blacks, the lamentable state of America's race relations is masked and Obama does reasonably well among white Democrats.

    But the states with extensive racial interaction are precisely those that Democrats regularly carry, or need to carry, to win. Of course in several such states whites in general vote sufficiently Democratic to overcome the now obvious disinclination of working class whites to vote for Obama (e.g., Massachusetts, New York, California). But that is not true of the critical states mentioned above and, possibly, several others. "(snip)


    (snip)"Candor

    Michelle Obama attended Princeton and the Harvard Law School. Taking her at her word, interacting with whites in these rarified settings did little to improve her feelings about her country, including, presumably, the whites who made up the majority of her classmates. Given America's current rules of racial engagement -- which allow negative views of whites by blacks to be expressed but forbid the reverse - Mrs. Obama felt free to express herself publicly (though now, no doubt, wishes she had been less candid).

    On the other side of the divide, the only remaining permissible venue for white expression of racial grievance is the voting booth. Where social policy, proximity, and numbers create mandatory interaction by whites and blacks in settings less elegant than Princeton and Harvard, white disenchantment engendered by that interaction finds its outlet in elections.

    The theory that greater familiarity is an antidote to mutual antagonism holds only if each party likes what it sees in the other as the familiarity develops. This does not appear to be the case with either principal race in America. The consequences are playing out at the ballot box.

    Doubters of this reality should not only consider Mrs. Obama's words, but take a look at the racial demographics of states outside the South where her husband won the white vote (and the state), and compare them with the racial demographics of the states where he lost the white vote (and the state).

    Whether this voting pattern will persist is a matter on which no guess is ventured. Whether the Wright fiasco will worsen it for Obama is unknowable. That the pattern does exist is an indisputable fact. "(snip)

  2. #2
    God/dess Paris's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6,345
    Thanks
    168
    Thanked 801 Times in 419 Posts

    Default Re: weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

    My husband and I would be considered 'White working class' and neither of us have a problem with the idea of Obama as president.

    Yes, Wright said some hateful and racist things. So what? He isn't running for president, Obama is. Those articles are divisive. I don't like to be told how to think or feel about anything, most especially my feelings on race and racism. Those articles are trying to do just that. I might be more inclined to vote Obama over Clinton simply because those articles tell me it is against my demographic.

    This is ridiculous. As if minorities wish to force majorities into indentured servitude or some other outrageous fear that drives racism in the population. Equality is just that. Not a shift of the power base to another demographic.


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


  3. #3
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

    ^^^ as the article says, "that the pattern does exist is an irrefutable fact".

    Equality is just that
    as the article also points out, it is the current LACK of equality that is presumably driving this voting pattern. To be specific, it is the ability of black Americans to publicly voice their grievances against white Americans, but a LACK of ability for white Americans to do the same (outside the voting booth at least).

    I might be more inclined to vote Obama over Clinton simply because those articles tell me it is against my demographic.
    actually, as an Oregonian, the demographic suggests that you will be inclined to vote for Obama. Oregon has a very low percentage of black residents (only 1.9% per 2006 census data, with most of those concentrated in a couple of large cities), thus it fits the 'Wisconsin pattern'. Oregon also has a heavy majority of democrat voters, such that any potential crossover of 'white working class' democratic voters not choosing to support Obama is unlikely to result in a McCain victory no matter whether Hilary or Barack winds up being the democratic candidate.

    In other words, in the eyes of both democratic party and republican party strategists, the outcome of the Oregon vote is a foregone conclusion. In other words, regardless of whether the DNC and democratic convention nominates Obama or Hilary, the actual presidential election will assign all of Oregon's electoral votes to the democratic candidate. As such, the DNC and democratic convention have absolutely nothing to lose in the state of Oregon by nominating Hilary instead of Barack.

    On the other hand, where other states with much larger black populations are concerned, and where potential crossover of 'white working class' voters could in fact make the difference between a democrat or a republican winning the state's electoral votes, the DNC and democratic convention would be taking a far greater risk by nominating Obama than by nominating Hilary.

    This of course brings us right back to the main point of this thread, that the DNC and democratic convention are increasingly viewing Barack Obama to be 'unelectable'.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 03-21-2008 at 01:27 PM.

  4. #4
    God/dess Paris's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6,345
    Thanks
    168
    Thanked 801 Times in 419 Posts

    Default Re: weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    as the article also points out, it is the current LACK of equality that is presumably driving this voting pattern. To be specific, it is the ability of black Americans to publicly voice their grievances against white Americans, but a LACK of ability for white Americans to do the same (outside the voting booth at least).
    ^^I don't understand this reasoning. For every white that has a legitimate grievance due to affirmative action (or whatever) there are likely 100 blacks that can voice the same grievance of being passed over for an opportunity because of race.

    I don't understand what everyone is so afraid of. People are people. Just because someone looks different, talks different, had a different religion or family life does not mean that they are any less (or more) capable of being successful. It is the pervasive and subtle discrimination in our media and entertainment that is doing the most damage. People view themselves through the eyes of others. Just like teenage girls have BDD due to unreasonable media images, minorities are faced with the same self esteem issues.

    There is a subtle gnawing on my psyche at all this racism talk. I find it embarrassing and infuriating at the same time. I KNOW what I grew up around. I KNOW what I've seen personally re: racism. To pretend that it doesn't exist or it is being blown out of proportion is insulting to the victims of racism.

    As strippers we know what it feels like to be unjustly stereo-typed. We can hide our professions (Well, maybe not you, Melonie). We can't hide our race. We chose our professions. We don't choose our race.

    My hope is that when Obama becomes president, he will blow the stereo type out of the water and bring real equality to black/white relations in this country. Equality in that young black Americans can see a reflection of themselves in the presidency as opposed to the media images that are unfairly portrayed.


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


  5. #5
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

    ^^I don't understand this reasoning
    if you'll pardon the political incorrectness, the reasoning is very simple ... put yourself in the position of a democratic or republican political advisor. Black votes don't matter, it's that simple. The democratic candidate is going to receive 90%+ of the black vote, no matter who the democratic candidate is and no matter who the republican candidate is. The situation might be different if black voters had ever supported a republican, but for the past 40 years this has never happened. Therefore the worst that can happen in regard to the DNC and democratic convention selecting Hilary over Barack as the presidential candidate is that some small percentage of black voter may choose not to vote. In the worst case this might translate into 10% lower turnout by black voters, and at approximately 10% of the total population this would in turn translate into a 1% reduction in the total votes that Hilary would receive and zero additional support for McCain.

    On the other hand, if Obama is nominated and if the 'Ohio pattern' applies to a particular state, there is a real risk of some 'working class white' democratic voters not only choosing to NOT vote for Barack, but a few may actually vote for McCain. If, unlike Oregon, the proportion of democrats to republicans in the particular state is close to being equal, then putting Barack on the ticket versus Hilary might actually result in a McCain win in that state. If enough such states are swung to McCain by 'working class white' voters boycotting Obama or (worse) casting a vote for McCain, the national election could go to McCain as well.

    I would add that bringing real equality to black/white relations is exactly what is now causing trouble for Obama. For example, look what mainstream media did to Mitt Romney over his religious affiliations ! Apparently it is very dangerous to be a 'rich white man' these days, particularly after the Rev. Wright's comments. However, the 'equality' of Obama's serious candidacy now precludes mainstream media making an issue of Mitt Romney's religious affiliations while ignoring Obama's religious affiliations.


    To pretend that it doesn't exist or it is being blown out of proportion is insulting to the victims of racism.
    are you referring to Barack and mainstream media attempting to 'spin away' Rev. Wright's racist commentary, and 20 years worth of voluntary listening on the part of Obama ? If there were only one good development to have come out of Obama being a serious contender in the presidential election, it is that formerly 'unspeakable' issues are now able to receive somewhat 'equal' discussion ... including the apparent pattern that 90+% of black democratic voters choose to vote for a black candidate (which in itself has huge racist implications but essentially no accusations to that effect), while some small percentage of white democratic voters do not (but which immediately spawns accusations of racism).

    Some have made the observation that, were it not for racism, Barack Obama would not be a serious contender in this year's presidental election at all - most recently prominent democrat Geraldine Ferraro. Whether there is any truth in that assertion or not is another question entirely, but at least it is being spoken about for essentially the first time.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 03-21-2008 at 06:32 PM.

  6. #6
    Featured Member
    Joined
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,030
    Thanks
    21
    Thanked 117 Times in 78 Posts

    Default Re: weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

    I'm not going to read through all that stuff that you copied from somewhere melonie so I'll just answer the thread topic.

    NO.

    Obama is just as electable as McCain, not to mention McCain carries the dangerous stigma of being both a Republican and for the war. So in that place he's not unelectable.

    Against Hillary again no. The nomination is going to come down to superdelegates and those people are mostly not going to be enfluenced by this, they've already made up their mind, and aren't telling... So again he is electable in that area.

  7. #7
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

    ^^^ I guess that you haven't been keeping up with the latest poll results ?





    (snip)"McCain leads 46 percent to 40 percent in a hypothetical matchup against Obama in the November presidential election, according to the poll.

    That is a sharp turnaround from the Reuters/Zogby poll from last month, which showed in a head-to-head matchup that Obama would beat McCain 47 percent to 40 percent.

    "The last couple of weeks have taken a toll on Obama and in a general election match-up, on both Democrats," said pollster John Zogby.

    Matched up against Clinton, McCain leads 48 percent to 40 percent, narrower than his 50 to 38 percent advantage over her in February.

    "It's not surprising to me that McCain's on top because there is disarray and confusion on the Democratic side," Zogby said

    Obama gave a speech on Tuesday rebuking his pastor, the Rev. Jeremiah Wright, for sermons sometimes laced with inflammatory tirades but said he could not disown him and it was time for Americans to bind the country's racial wounds.

    The poll showed Obama continues to have strong support from the African-American community but that he is experiencing some slippage among moderates and independents.

    Among independents, McCain led for the first time in the poll, 46 percent to 36 percent over Obama.

    He was behind McCain by 21 percent among white voters.

    Zogby attributed this to a combination of the fallout from Clinton's victory in Ohio earlier this month and the controversy over Wright's sermons.

    "And, just the closer he gets to the nomination, the tougher questions whites ask about an African-American candidate," Zogby said."(snip)


    you and I may not agree with the poll results, but you can rest assured that political strategists are paying attention to the changing trend !

  8. #8
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,493
    Thanks
    120
    Thanked 50 Times in 35 Posts

    Default Re: weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

    Everyone has a crazy person in their life.

    He is plenty electable - compared to the other bozo's running.

    Hillary is corrupt as hell.

    McCain is willing to keep us in Iraq for 100 years.

    Lets hope a third party candidate shows up.

  9. #9
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

    ^^^ technically speaking, you already have one in the form of Ralph Nader. Of course, thanks to America's electoral college winner take all system (by state), a voter for Nader is essentially equal to a vote for John McCain.

  10. #10
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

    It's March ! Not October . Let's see what happens after a few more McCain gaffes.
    Let's see if Obama wipes the floor with McCain during the debates.

    Btw, who has made sure to bring out all this crap about Obama ? Billary.

    The darkened photo. The Somali costume. Rev.Wright. All Hillary , Hillary , Hillary.

    Inter alia, it causes me to chuckle that Hannity, Monica Crowley and other conservatives are helping Hillary do her dirty work. Crowley is at least intellectually honest enough to admit it.

  11. #11
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

    ^^^ oh, agreed ... that the ultimate beneficiary of all of this controversy ... and our probable next president as a result ... is Hilary !

  12. #12
    Featured Member
    Joined
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,030
    Thanks
    21
    Thanked 117 Times in 78 Posts

    Default Re: weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

    ^^^I don't know... I think she benefits, but I also think Obama is coming strong off the Wright issue...

    In the end it's going to come down to the superdelegates and who do they think can beat McCain... I still question in Hillary can beat McCain... While I think a lot of Hillary supporters would vote for Obama, I think a lot of Obama supporters would never vote for Hillary and would even go vote for McCain.

  13. #13
    Featured Member
    Joined
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,030
    Thanks
    21
    Thanked 117 Times in 78 Posts

    Default Re: weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

    I'm still confused by these choices we have... This year when I though democrats would be coming out of the wood work in a chance to take the Presidency after a downslide of Repubicans, and look at who we end up with? McCain? Hillary?? Obama???

  14. #14
    Senior Member RandomUser's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    101
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

    I always lie to pollsters when they call me. Either completely opposite or slightly off to the side.

    McCain's 100 years in Iraq is stated as not in a state of war, but more like our 60 years in Germany and Korea.

    Obama has a lot of novelty to him and a chance to move the race issues forward. I don't think pollsters who use trending can adequately describe his effect on Electorate. I know a couple of conservative Republicans who are thinking of voting for him.

    I don't see how Obama can distance himself from his spiritual mentor, the minister of hate. It's like having two strikes against you before you even get to the plate to bat.

  15. #15
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

    McCain? Hillary?? Obama???
    ^^^ yeah, the running joke refers to choosing between Curly, Larry and Shemp ... except somebody threatened to sue because the analogy was in insult to the memory of Shemp !


    I don't see how Obama can distance himself from his spiritual mentor, the minister of hate. It's like having two strikes against you before you even get to the plate to bat
    ultimately, this issue will get thoroughly picked apart as the nomination / election draws closer. If Obama's carefully crafted public image of promise winds up falling by the wayside, i.e. if Obama's calls for change become perceived as being changes for the worse in the same manner as Rev. Jesse and Rev. Al in previous campaigns, the DNC and superdelegates will not hesitate to throw Obama under the proverbial bus. They are NOT going to take a chance on losing the november election to McCain, even if it means temporarily angering their black voting block constituency. As pointed out earlier, even if the DNC and superdelegates wind up alienating black voters, they really have extremely little to lose (i.e. there is no way that black voters would cross the aisle to vote for McCain).

  16. #16
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,493
    Thanks
    120
    Thanked 50 Times in 35 Posts

    Default Re: weekend commentary - is Obama now 'unelectable' ?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandomUser View Post
    I always lie to pollsters when they call me. Either completely opposite or slightly off to the side.

    McCain's 100 years in Iraq is stated as not in a state of war, but more like our 60 years in Germany and Korea.

    Obama has a lot of novelty to him and a chance to move the race issues forward. I don't think pollsters who use trending can adequately describe his effect on Electorate. I know a couple of conservative Republicans who are thinking of voting for him.

    I don't see how Obama can distance himself from his spiritual mentor, the minister of hate. It's like having two strikes against you before you even get to the plate to bat.

    I also believe it is time to get out of those places too.

    Remarkably, Obama seems to be THE protest vote against the status quo.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 73
    Last Post: 12-09-2008, 12:39 PM
  2. weekend commentary - Zogby poll of Obama voters
    By Melonie in forum Member Boards
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 11-28-2008, 03:58 PM
  3. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-10-2008, 12:09 AM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-05-2008, 08:09 AM
  5. weekend commentary - Obama favors 'carbon tax'
    By Melonie in forum Member Boards
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 04-08-2008, 01:19 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •