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Thread: a very scary statistic just released ...

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    Default a very scary statistic just released ...

    from the Columbus Dispatch .

    (snip) "Nearly one in 10 Ohioans now receives food stamps, the highest number in the state's history. Caseloads have almost doubled just since 2001, with 1.1 million residents now collecting benefits, according to the Ohio Department of Job and Family Services. Low wages, unemployment and the rising cost of groceries, gasoline and other necessities are to blame for financial hardships facing many Ohio families. Caseloads have been rising steadily in the past seven years, said Brian Harter, spokesman for the state agency which oversees the food-stamp program."(snip)

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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    Damn!
    I believe it, that's horrible.


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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    Ohio is hurting big time from the recent economic problems faced by our nation.


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    Arrow Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    These statistics must also be exacerbated by the displaced flood victims from last year's most violent flood. Not to mention all of the flood damaged homes which were either uninsured, underinsured or flat-out turned down for insurance payment, which surely affects the Ohio economy negatively, of course, and that of our entire country in many ways.

    All that even before bringing up Ohio's crops and how their agriculture has been so negatively affected by a variety of issues.

    Scary to see these statistics, considering the overall state of our country's economy.

    Sad to know that the so-called "American Dream" has changed from:
    Making-it-BIG to Making-ends-Meet-while-barely-keeping-Head-above-Water (Barely, while trying not to sink).

    *Sigh*
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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    There are plenty of scary statistics. When I was living in Mississippi, 70% of school students were eligible for free or discounted lunches. Guy on TV claimed 60% of african-american fourth graders could not read and write. 70% of black children are born to never married mothers. (37% for all of US)

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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    Gee, and to think Ohio is mostly white. I think this statistic is scary. Only because of that reason. I dont hear them talking about Michigan. I believe Michigan little world was hit harder than Ohio.
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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    to me this scary statistic is scary because it clearly shows the cumulative effect of globalization on the US manufacturing base i.e. high paying mostly union manufacturing jobs with excellent benefits are evaporating, with absolutely no (legal) alternatives presenting themselves that would provide anywhere near the same level of income / standard of living.

    This also has a huge side effect in the form of lost gov't tax revenues plus rising gov't costs of providing social welfare benefits. For every $60k a year manufacturing job that has permanently evaporated in ohio, this also probably means that the state lost $5k in tax revenue plus gained another $10k in social welfare benefit costs. Ultimately, states are required to balance their budgets. With 10% of Ohio's population on food stamps (and paying no income taxes), and with another 10% of Ohio's population working for the gov't (some to administer all of these social welfare programs), I have to wonder who is left to tax !

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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    The poverty is spreading to W VA too:

    One in 6 West Virginians is on food stamps

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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    I just found this statistic, and it looks like we are losing ground in the income potential of 25-34 age group. This chart is listed in 2004 USD, as a comparison of actual buying power NOT actual income.

    Median annual earnings for 25-34 age group by demographic.


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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    ^^^ that's an excellent find, Paris ! I have seen a ton of statistics showing year over year income changes, but nothing that puts all the pieces together like this does.

    But actually, there are still missing pieces - one of which is the effect of taxes that are incurred downstream of the income shown in your report. Rising income taxes, rising sales taxes, rising fuel taxes etc. all combine to make out the trend shown in your report to be even worse in the real world !!!


    I would also add that there is another massive risk factor involved with this trend. If you look at 10% of Ohoians being 'non-productive', i.e. relying on the tax money of fellow Ohioans to provide for themselves, and you look at 17% of West Virginians now doing the same thing, it leads to a scary 'convergence'. With stagnant incomes, how can young workers possibly handle the massive tax burden that must eventually come home to roost i.e. the taxes collected from three workers having to support one gov't employee's paycheck plus one retiree's SSi check plus one neighbor on food stamps / medicaid / welfare ?

    At some point (and arguably that point is already here, but we just keep borrowing more money and refusing to recognize it), it will simply be economically unsustainable. At that point, there will be no option but to fire gov't workers, to cut retirement benefits, and to cut food stamp / medicaid / welfare benefits in order to avoid a revolt by the remaining workers / taxpayers.

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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    That would be the state my husbands babys mama lives.... sounds about right... she doesnt work, lives with her mother, is 37. Yup, shes in the right state. Loser.

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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    Michigan just hit 1 in 8 on food stamps.

    Perhaps we know what this "new economy" will be.

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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    It's getting to the breaking point. The nation no longer is on the receiving side of compound interest. Right now our national debt is going higher beyond our ability to pay it back. It is just a matter of time before we won't be able to pay our American Express with our Master Card anymore (which is essentially what is going on).

    I'm afraid that the US government is going to write a check that bounces, and that check may be for the tickets home for our overseas service members.

    I'm not real familiar with the historical details of past budget crisis's. I think we had been weeks from bouncing government checks back in the 80's. But we weren't at war (well, the cold war but not actively in battle).


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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    I think its a cheap trip home since they own the boats, no?

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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    Quote Originally Posted by LuvlyDancer View Post
    I think its a cheap trip home since they own the boats, no?
    Huh??

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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    ^^^ am I to assume that this is a reference to continued American presence in the Middle east serving to avoid a huge potential future increase in oil prices ? If so, then such an abrupt pullout would actually have a double whammy.

    If, like the 1970's, the Arab oil producers were to be again 'coerced' not to export as much oil to the USA, American domestic prices for oil / gasoline etc. and related prices for food, domestically manufactured products etc. would increase significantly (again). Those price increases would fall squarely on the weekly budgets of American workers. But whammy number two would come as a result of the US gov't being forced to increase payouts for food stamps, welfare checks, for home heating bill assistance etc. so that Americas 'poor' people would still have their 'minimum acceptable standard of living' maintained. This of course would have to be paid for by additional tax increases on American workers.

    The tin foil hat crowd will tell you that the fact that all of these states are now issuing statistics that 10% - 13% - 16% of their populations has signed up for social welfare benefits is a testament to the 'moral hazard' which the US gov't has created - i.e. the fact that the standard of living that is achieveable via social welfare benefits plus working 2 days per week (to maintain eligibility for those benefits) is now the same as, or in some cases even better than, the standard of living achievable by a low skill American worker who chooses to work full time at a non-union job and 'pay his own way'.

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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    The tin foil hat crowd will tell you that the fact that all of these states are now issuing statistics that 10% - 13% - 16% of their populations has signed up for social welfare benefits is a testament to the 'moral hazard' which the US gov't has created - i.e. the fact that the standard of living that is achieveable via social welfare benefits plus working 2 days per week (to maintain eligibility for those benefits) is now the same as, or in some cases even better than, the standard of living achievable by a low skill American worker who chooses to work full time at a non-union job and 'pay his own way'.
    The tin foil hat people are saying the labor statistics are bullshit and lies, not that there is a great conspiracy to pay welfare.

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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    ^^^ well there is a difficult statistic to get around ... the fact that 'poverty study' after 'poverty study' continue to show that people who are beneficiaries of social welfare programs only work an average of 16 hours per week ... or quit jobs requiring that more hours be worked after a few months ... with the somewhat obvious purpose being to limit their actual reportable gross incomes to a level that does not threaten their eligibility for continued social welfare benefits.

    This of course circles back to the 'moral hazard' created by existing gov't social welfare benefit policies ... i.e. that the 'equivalent cash value' of a $20k per year 'qualifying' income + subsidized rent + subsidized utilities + medicaid + food stamps etc. is something on the order of a pre-tax $30k+ annual income. This has created a situation where, once a person becomes eligible for social welfare benefits, if a $12-$13 per hour full time job comes along they would be crazy to take such a job and forfeit their benefit eligibility. This of course is a major departure from the situation which existed in the 1930's, where people were motivated to move in search of jobs - as opposed to today's situation where many people are content to stay at home, to work part time at whatever jobs are available locally, and to rely on social welfare benefits to maintain a 'minimum acceptable standard of living'.

    Coincidentally, radio news did a story this morning quoting a nationwide statistic that 28 million Americans (out of 300 million) will be receiving food stamps this year !

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    Arrow Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    Hi Melonie, remember this?

    "The real reason behind U.S. Immigration Reform..."


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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    ^^^ oh definitely ! The more expensive unskilled labor becomes within the USA, the more American industries dependent on unskilled labor will relocate / outsource to China, India etc. - with 'hands on' agriculture being just the latest example. And for those American industries who are both dependent on unskilled labor but also locked into geographic proximity (i.e. retailers, lawn care, food service to name a few), the name of the game is automation and human staff reduction (self check-outs, huge turn on a dime mowers, 'canned' menus of outsourced foods).

    Circling back on topic, a statistic was just released today showing that my own New York county has one in every nine residents now being signed up for the food stamp program. Again, given the high gov't mandated costs for any American employer to hire an unskilled worker (relative to Mexico, China, India et al), and given the availability of social welfare benefits that provide a 'minimum acceptable standard of living' for unemployed unskilled Americans, there appears to be a growing percentage of unskilled Americans whose sole 'official' purpose in life has now been reduced to voting for politicians who promise to continue / increase social welfare benefits !
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-01-2008 at 03:51 PM.

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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    In teaching my students here, I emphasize to them that people in America have lots of stuff but mostly aren't very rich.

    The stereotype is that we're all rich. After all, in China, you have to be pretty rich to get a computer, microwave, fridge, etc. In the US we're sufficiently saturated that you can find them on a curb -- but making rent works many people's fingers to the bone...

    It's a pretty sad state of affairs.
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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    ^^^ the stereotype from a foreign viewpoint that all Americans are 'rich' isn't totally wrong. The 'minimum acceptable standard of living' that essentially any American will be provided by simply signing up for social welfare benefit programs is FAR above that which can achieved by working full time at an unskilled job in any foreign country that doesn't offer similarly generous social welfare benefits. Thus if the truth were told, the actual goal for many foreign immigrants to the USA is to simply become eligible for our social welfare benefits ! One proof of this is the 'Anchor Baby' syndrome, where unskilled immigrants legal or illegal strive to have a baby which will be born on American soil.


    (snip)""Anchor babies," such as those Dr. Cosman describes, are a key factor in rising, unpaid medical costs. Because illegal aliens cannot be turned away from hospitals, and because all children born in the United States receive citizenship, "anchor babies" are a double fiscal threat. The hospital must provide free medical care to mother and child. The parents are seldom deported since they must stay with the new American "citizen." Thus, an entire new family joins the "anchor baby" on the dole, as the case Cosman documented so well proves.

    The Center for Immigration Studies provides alarming statistics regarding births to immigrants, legal and illegal, not least of which is that illegal immigrants account for 10 percent of all births in the United States:

    * "In 2002, 23 percent of all births in the United States were to immigrant mothers (legal or illegal), compared to 15 percent in 1990, 9 percent in 1980, and 6 percent in 1970."

    * "Even at the peak of the last great wave of immigration in 1910, births to immigrant mothers accounted for a slightly smaller share than today. After 1910 immigration was reduced, but current immigration continues at record levels, thus births to immigrants will continue to increase."

    * "Our best estimate is that 383,000 or 42 percent of births to immigrants are to illegal alien mothers. Births to illegals now account for nearly one out of every 10 births in the United States."

    * "The large number of births to illegals shows that the longer illegal immigration is allowed to persist, the harder the problem is to solve. Because as U.S. citizens these children can stay permanently, their citizenship can prevent a parent's deportation, and once adults they can sponsor their parents for permanent residence."

    And the cost of illegal immigrant births? About $2 billion annually. Mexicans know the score when it comes to "anchor babies." Anchor babies provide benefits. Mexican ambulances cross the border to drop patients at American hospitals, knowing the patients will receive free care. Those patients include mothers in labor. About 3 million anchor babies, Rubenstein reports, have been born in the United States.

    Frighteningly, in some states, immigrant births nearly exceed births to real Americans, and in too many counties to name, immigrant births exceed births to real Americans. In California, for instance, immigrants accounted for nearly 50 percent of all births. In Los Angeles County, about 56 percent of births are to immigrants, a pattern repeated across the country in county after county and city after city.

    Even worse, however, a significant share of these immigrant births are births to illegals. In Arizona in 2002, CIS reported, illegals accounted for 56.4 percent of the births among immigrants and 17.2 percent of all births. In New Mexico, the figures were 55.1 and 9.7 percent; in Texas, 54.8 and 16.6 percent; in California, 47.7 and 22.1 percent. Breaking the statistics down to the county level, the picture gets worse. In Monterey, California, for instance, illegals accounted for 61.9 percent of immigrant births and 34.8 percent of all births. In Hidalgo, Texas, the figures were 64.4 and 33.4 percent, and in Lake County, Illinois, hardly a border state, the figures were 49.4 and 16.2 percent."(snip)

    from

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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    Actually, illegal immigrants aren't eligible for social welfare benefits unless you count free emergency room treatment as a social welfare benefit. Mostly they come to take illegal jobs -- the ones created by those employers who don't want to pay a living wage. Since they're off the grid, they don't have to deal with the expenses of being on the grid (which is part of what makes a living wage so high; certainly higher than the current minimum, in most areas.)

    It's true that certain basic standards of living are higher in the US. It's also true that others aren't. To take an example, in China, fresh vegetables and fruit are easily available to even the poorest, while in the US, someone on a subsistence wage likely lives on ramen noodles and other packaged snack food, as that is the cheapest thing available -- and that inflates their health care costs when they develop the inevitable stomach problems or malnutrition or diabetes or whatever else that results from living on a diet of crap. Another example -- since housing codes are de-emphasized, there are fewer homeless in most areas here. A lot of people grow their own food -- especially poor people. In the US, the privilege of having a garden is pretty costly! There are functioning bus and train systems everywhere, which the US of all developed countries lacks, meaning that in China it is possible for people to reach their jobs without owning a car. And finally, though the quality of medical care is overall somewhat lower, it's less than a tenth the cost of medical care in the States.

    I'm not saying life is better here; not in a million years. Hot running water is rare; pollution is pretty heavy. But there are definitely some aspects that balance it out in unexpected ways. Take the car thing, for example: being too poor to own a car, in the US, means being too poor to work at 3/4 of the jobs you might be qualified for. Not so in China. So the fact that few people here own cars is a different statistic when phrased in light of the quality of transit systems.
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    Default Re: a very scary statistic just released ...

    ^^^ the minute that an illegal mother gives birth to a baby on American soil, the baby becomes eligible for social welfare benefits ... which in turn means that the mother can sign up for WIC, food stamps, TANF, subsidized rent, subsidized utilities etc. on the baby's behalf ! This also means that the illegal immigrant mother, and any other illegal immigrant family menbers, are now 'immune' from deportation. Thus, thanks to the American citizen 'anchor baby', the entire illegal alien family will now be provided with a 'minimum acceptable standard of living' via American social welfare programs which exceeds the standard of living they could have achieved by working full time in their home country. There is a full discussion of this at the link I posted above.

    Combining the statistics of 23% of all US births occurring to immigrant mothers (legal or illegal), and 42% of that 23% = 10% of all US births occurring to illegal immigrant mothers, at the very least this means that social welfare benefit signups are growing at a rate which exceeds 10% per year. This certainly explains the 1 in 10 or 1 in 8 or 1 in 6 American residents collecting food stamps statistic. But that statistic fails to point out that the same 1 in 8 American residents are also collecting other social welfare benefits besides food stamps. That statistic fails to point out that the same 1 in 8 American residents have no 'useful' skills to offer to (legal) American employers vs. the cost of US minimum wage pay rates, meaning that they are likely to continue collecting social welfare benefits forever.
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-07-2008 at 03:54 AM.

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