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Thread: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

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    Default Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    In a thread about Haiti, it was pointed out that Hugo Chavez was 'buying' himself a pivotal role in the lives of millions of third world people, by interjecting his 'financial support' to keep them from hunger / starvation. However, it would appear that Chavez and Venezuela may only be a proxy for the rising TRUE colonial power ...

    (snip)"Europeans have, for half a millennium, been unchallenged as the global colonisers, but last month the respected Economist magazine dubbed the Chinese "The New Colonists".

    While the Congo in central Africa was once over-run by Belgians, it is now the Chinese that can be found wondering around its mining belts.

    In Lubumbashi, the capital of the Congo's copper-rich region Katanga, the Economist reported "a sudden Chinese invasion".

    Troubled Angola recently shunned Western financial aid because of the amount of Chinese money pouring into it, in return for commodities.

    From Kazakhstan to Indonesia to Latin America, Chinese firms are gobbling up oil, gas, coal and metals.

    Canadian authorities were recently alarmed to find the Chinese interested in exploring the Arctic Ocean, in a bid to get a share of the minerals beneath the thawing icecap.

    In eastern Siberia, Russians worry that China is by default taking over their empty land.

    The West has long seen Africa as its backyard, but Western diplomats now worry that not just Africa, but South America, too, is being lost to China.

    And Western governments are concerned that the rules of the game are changing. Most worryingly, as China's brutal suppression of the once independent Tibet shows, this is not a superpower that respects Western standards on human rights.

    From Darfur to Myanmar, China is cuddling up to murderous dictators.


    At home, it holds mass executions of criminals with bullets in the back of the head while transplant surgeons stand by to harvest their still pulsating organs.

    Yet Western governments have been in such awe of China's looming power that their response has not been to challenge its abuses, but to try to silence their own protesters at home.

    From the UN to the IMF to the World Bank, the international institutions that attempt to govern the planet were made in the image of the victors of World War II. Now power is shifting from West to East, the whole liberal democratic world order will face its first serious challenge in decades.

    Many fear that things could get ugly.

    There is only one thing worse than an unchallenged superpower - it is a superpower with a victim mentality, which feels the world owes it a favour."(snip)

    from

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    Sounds like propaganda crap to encourage action against China's horrid stance on human rights...

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    I guess someone has to fill the vacuum left by the faltering American superpower. China seems like the most likely candidate in our modern age. Or India. But China seems to have it's shit together just a little better at this point.


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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    To call a far reaching economy colonialism in my mind is a vast exaggeration.

    China's economy is three times the size of India's and growing faster. India won't be catching up for quite a while.

    The wild estimates I have seen for China being a superpower is still 2050 or 40+ years away. We have time.

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    ^^^Time for what? To endulge in more ridiculous behavior? If we don't get our shit in gear, and fast, China will pass us in 40 years. Even if we do we'll get passed eventually, we'll just get ahead and then slack off again.

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    ^^^ I took the point of the article to be that, in terms of 'Colonial exploitation' of the raw materials of third world countries, China is engaging in a crash program. China is cutting contractual deals with, and establishing an official presence in, a whole bunch of (non-democratic) South American and African countries that are rich in oil / gas / copper / iron / other raw materials. Granted that in 'Western' colonial days the presence in those third world countries was established at the point of a gun ... while China's colonial presence is being established by spending truckloads of their US dollar trade surplus while allowing local despots to wield the guns - along with China's implied guarantee that if the local despot were to be threatened by say an intervention by a western power, that China would intervene.

    As the article mentioned, these sorts of Chinese colonial presences are setting the stage for the day when, say, Venezuela and Nigeria simply decide to stop exporting their oil to America ( despite the existance of contracts and Western owned facilities ) and decide to ship it to mainland China instead ( while kicking out Western interests and nationalizing Western owned facilities ). If / when that happens, America would have extremely few options open to replace that lost supply of oil, and even fewer options in regard to restoring that same supply of oil via historically effective means (i.e. US troops suddenly appearing)

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    ^^^I say let em'. The problem with making a deal with a "despot" or a "warlord" etc. is they don't stay in power forever... So unless you want to keep buying off despots then it's not the best plan...

    I'm still not worried, China's won't and can't do this fast enough for it to be that big a deal. Not to mention they couldn't interfere with us militarily, not to protect some despot ruler who is at odds with the International Community.

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    As the article mentioned, these sorts of Chinese colonial presences are setting the stage for the day when, say, Venezuela and Nigeria simply decide to stop exporting their oil to America ( despite the existance of contracts and Western owned facilities ) and decide to ship it to mainland China instead ( while kicking out Western interests and nationalizing Western owned facilities ). If / when that happens, America would have extremely few options open to replace that lost supply of oil, and even fewer options in regard to restoring that same supply of oil via historically effective means (i.e. US troops suddenly appearing)
    There is a lesson of Cuba and it's now defunct benefactor the USSR that may be heeded by the communist wanna be's.

    Not saying they are gonna learn the lesson though.

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    ^^^I say let em'. The problem with making a deal with a "despot" or a "warlord" etc. is they don't stay in power forever... So unless you want to keep buying off despots then it's not the best plan...

    I'm still not worried, China's won't and can't do this fast enough for it to be that big a deal. Not to mention they couldn't interfere with us militarily, not to protect some despot ruler who is at odds with the International Community.

    If it interferes with China's oil they will be looking at us in a hard way.

    For all the talk about how bad communism is, we have basically created a monster by feeding it dollars, technology, and work.

    Kind of reminds me of other super-powers in the past who have forgotten what ambition looks like.

    We live in a world with a lot more people and the same amount of resources... and in some cases far less quantities of certain resources. That aims up for some friction.

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    I'm still not worried, China's won't and can't do this fast enough for it to be that big a deal. Not to mention they couldn't interfere with us militarily, not to protect some despot ruler who is at odds with the International Community
    actually, they already have ... or do you think that the UN has held off on sanctioning Iran for so long because the really didn't think nukes were under development ?

    I'm afraid that Deo has the inevitable supply versus demand basics down cold. Today the primary emphasis is on gas and oil, but copper, aluminum, uranium, palladium, tin, platinum, concrete and a host of other vital materials plus food, fertilizers, pesticides etc. are also in the picture. Just like Japan in the late 1930's, if America threatens to 'strangle' China from imports of vital materials, it's highly doubtful that China will refrain from 'seizing' what she needs over American objections. This will especially be the case if the third world country that is the source of the vital materials has a despotic leader who has already been 'bought' by the Chinese, and a no longer starving local population who has been 'fed' by the Chinese, who CHOOSE to sell all of their vital material supply to China and zero to America.

    No offense intended, but I doubt that many people really have an accurate idea of just how dependent on foreign imports the US has become - particularly for oil and gas, and for vital materials i.e. copper, aluminum, etc. As of this year, we are now also dependent on food imports, because a huge amount of American farmland is being used to grow ethanol biofuel feedstock rather than human edible crops, and because fruit and vegetable farmers can no longer be economically competitive. If these imports should be cut off, or even if these imports should be bid up in price by the Chinese to levels that are 2-3-4 times today's price levels, the American way of life as most people know it would cease to exist.

    If this were to happen, yes the 'rich' could still buy all of the US grown 'organic food' they want ... but the 'working class' will find the produce dep't shelves at WalMart to be virtually empty. If this were to happen, yes the 'rich' could still afford to drive to the office and heat/cool their homes, but the 'working class' would find themselves in a situation where the price of gas required to drive to their job exceeded the earnings the job actually provides ! If this were to happen, what remains of US manufacturing businesses would close their doors due to the sky high energy costs. In other words, if this were to happen, the entire suburban 'working class' culture of America would no longer be economically sustainable. People placed in that sort of situation tend to be short on patience.

    Arguably, much of this scenario is already taking place ... but in 'slow motion'. If the '[email protected]!t hits the fan' in regard to say an embargo on Venezuelan oil imports or Chinese food imports, the pace would quicken tremendously.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-15-2008 at 03:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    ^^^Do you really think China wants that to happen? They need a market, and we're it, if our economy collapses and people are starving, not many people are going to be buying what they produce.

    And again, if that was to happen (which it won't) the U.S. military would quickly take action against these "evil despots" and instill a friendly leadership who would forgo agreements to China. If that happens, China can't do ANYTHING. They can't stop us militarily, for the moment no one can. Besides who would the international community side with in that battle?

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    ^^^ actually, the Chinese are developing their own domestic market rather nicely. They also have India, Europe etc. Thus while losing their US export market would be painful it would certainly not be terminal. Arguably they are already losing their US export market in 'slow motion' due to rising Chinese energy and labor costs and the declining US dollar exchange rate.

    Given recent declarations by the international community, if the 'democratically elected' president of Venezuela were to make a choice to stop oil exports to the USA and to instead export oil to China, and if the US were to subsequently 'invade' Venezuela to depose that 'democratically elected' president, to stop Chinese exports and to resume shipments to America, somehow I think that international public opinion would view America as a hostile agressor ! Look at all the negative public opinion spewed at the US for invading Iraq ... and we were far from alone in doing it ! Under those circumstances, there is also no guarantee that 'invading' US troops wouldn't find that 100,000 well armed Chinese 'security advisors' to the Venezuelan military were already present in Venezuela !

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    ^^^We're talking about Despots. And if we invaded Venezuela, China wouldn't assist, China's not stupid. They simply can't fight us. Besides we wouldn't need to invade Venezuela to get rid of him, a few simple pushes to the right people would have him eliminated quickly.

    Besides, once Chavez is gone, so will his "21 Century Socialism" so theres not a lot of time left for that.

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Under those circumstances, there is also no guarantee that 'invading' US troops wouldn't find that 100,000 well armed Chinese 'security advisors' to the Venezuelan military were already present in Venezuela !
    China's ability to "force project" outside of neighboring countries on a large scale is lacking and not expected to be of any concern until 2015...possibly longer. That simply entails the physical assets necessary...not the ability to protect said assets. Here is an article you might find interesting Mel;

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    ^^^ and you may be intrersted in this ...



    and more recently ...



    (snip)"the former Soviet aircraft carrier Varyag was commissioned into the Chinese Navy as Shilang, hull No. 83. The name was selected because Shilang was the last Chinese Navy admiral to invade Taiwan.

    However, the fact the Chinese have the Varyag is in part due to the Clinton administration.

    In 1998 the engineless, weaponless Ukrainian aircraft carrier was sold at auction for $20 million. The winning bidder was a Macao-registered firm called Chong Lot. The purchasers pledged it would be used for peaceful purposes. The carrier was to be sent to Macao and would be used for a floating casino.

    Turkish authorities, who denied the carrier passage through the Bosporus Strait because it was a warship, finally gave in when everyone, including the Clinton defense establishment, declared the Varyag to be a floating slot machine and not an aircraft carrier.

    In the end, the carrier never made it to Macao but somehow ended up at the main Chinese naval base in Dalian. Today, it is an official Chinese Navy warship."(snip)

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    ^^^So they have one 20 (atleast) year old carrier? Don't we have atleast 10 supercarriers, with plans to build more?

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    China has been very hesitant to build/buy an aircraft carrier. India and even Thailand have one. China is taking the long view.

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    ^^^So they have one 20 (atleast) year old carrier? Don't we have atleast 10 supercarriers, with plans to build more?

    All they have to do is plant that fucker in front of Venezuela with a pledge to protect and then it is up to us to start the war or not.

    You have to think more sophisticatedly regarding military power.

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    Quote Originally Posted by space_Cadet_28 View Post
    China has been very hesitant to build/buy an aircraft carrier. India and even Thailand have one. China is taking the long view.
    Hesitant?

    They already have one.

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    All they have to do is plant that fucker in front of Venezuela with a pledge to protect and then it is up to us to start the war or not.

    You have to think more sophisticatedly regarding military power.
    And we either:

    A. We start whispering to some of those people in the oil producing regions who are not happy with Chavez, they'd probably listen.

    B. Surround it with four of ours and kindly ask the Chinese if they'd like to lose their carrier on top of Venezuelan oil.

    C. Or we just wait a few years let Chavez go and see that someone more friendly to us is put into place.

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    ^^^ you're missing the point I think. If the Chinese are investing in 'win the hearts and minds' projects, if the Chinese are handing out aid money, if the Chinese are stationing thousands of 'technical advisors', and if the Chinese are willing to pay top Renmimbi for Venezuelan oil, it is extremely likely that ...

    ... the impoverished majority of Venezuelans will look upon the Chinese very favorably

    ... whatever future Venezuelan leader emerges will be in China's pocket

    ... any opposition move on the part of the USA would be viewed as naked aggression by the vast majority of the world community ... and would draw a UN sanction unless the US vetos in it's own selfish interest ...

    ... any opposition move on the part of the USA would result in an embargo on food exports / manufactured goods exports etc. from China to the USA ... creating an immediate 40% shortfall in some foods, creating a 90% shortfall in clothing, and creating all sorts of other shortfalls re manufactured goods.

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    ^^I got off track, but militarily we're fine, we would of course veto something selfishly, so would the Chinese and the Russians...

    Still it doesn't matter, China's not going to be able to buy off Venezuela or anyone else that easily. Not to mention, if American's were motivated and were lacking the money, China would lose it's biggest market, even with India and Europe they can't afford to lose the American market. So it won't happen, even if we did get in a scuffle over Oil, if they embargoed us, they'd run out of money pretty fast.

    But let's say it does happen, let's say China buys off Venezuela, then we could just easily cut exports to Venezuela... Which makes up about a third of their imports. Then we can start calling in debt of which I beleive their is still several billion. I don't think it'd be to long before they either started selling us oil again, or we'd find enough justification to move in. And you can't convince me China would go to war with the U.S. over Venezuelan oil.

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    ^^^ it's academic really. If 50% of the US is unwilling to go to war after the 9/11 attacks and 3000 dead American civilians, domestic support for a Venezuelan invasion exclusively because of oil supplies / prices would be next to zero - even if it were to lead to $10 a gallon gasoline and rationing of motor fuel / heating oil.

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    ^^^ Unless of course those Americans are starving and hungry and can't drive there cars... A little propaganda and it'd be done with, plus Venezuela wouldn't be like Iraq.

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    Default Re: Chinam the NEW colonial power ...

    ^^^ 100% propaganda may have worked in the past, from 'remember the Maine' right up to the Gulf of Tonkin 'incident'. However, based on the reaction of mainstream US news media and American liberals to the 50% propaganda that was used to justify the Iraq invasion, it will never work again. IMHO if Americans wind up starving / hungry and can't afford gas to drive their cars, instead of a call for a Venezuelan 'coup' there will be calls to increase social welfare benefits enough to cover the rising costs of food and gasoline ... as well as a call to increase taxes on the middle class enough to pay for it !

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