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Thread: Double standards

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Double standards

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSexKitten View Post

    "The word “slut” is commonly used and still has no masculine counterpart bearing equally virulent implications."

    "Because of the pervasiveness of such double standards within society, sexual relationships are forced into a specific pattern with set rules and guidelines. Men are expected to initiate most sexual encounters and relationships, and women are expected to succumb but only after certain criteria are met. Outings, gifts, and promises of monogamous commitment are several examples of the arbitrary markers for a woman allowing herself to indulge in sex without fear of societal or internalized, personal reprisal. In this way, the female sexuality is essentially commoditized. “Men who have sex are said to ‘get some.’ Women who have sex without getting enough in exchange are said to be ‘cheap,’” (Kalbfleisch 157)."


    This standard is absolutely alive and kickin', doll. Especially outside of our particular culture, and though slowly diminishing, still very much within as well.

    Agreed. It is diminishing, especially within our subculture--but our subculture is outside the norm. And it's in our subculture as well, far more than might be apparent. Also, the progress we who are working in or going to SCs tend to see is lost on middle America--or we wouldn't be seeing all these new legal problems--making nudity in Daytona illegal via the Supreme Court being but one example.


    The thread in Customer Conversation got me thinking about this, and it goes way beyond customer relations, so I thought I would start a thread here about it.

    There are many kinds of double standards involving the opposite sexes, of course--the most famous being a guy who fucks a lot of women being regarded as a real stud/hero/successful guy, but the woman who fucks a lot of guys as a whore, to be looked down upon in various ways.

    Then there is the 'It's OK for me (and those of my sex) to make this kind of statement/judgement, but not for you (or those of yours)' double standard. I have seen that a lot as well.

    And there's more, of course, but anyway--to what extent do you all think the classic DS exists? Whose fault is it? What are the origins--biological, cultural, socio-economic, some combination? Who perpetuates it? Men, women, both?

    How does it apply to the industry? As much as guys getting jealous of dancer girlfriends is deplored, I have so often seen dancers be jealous of a DJ lover for flirting with other dancers, even if it's part of the working relationship. Another reason not to play at work...
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
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  2. #2
    TheSexKitten
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    Default Re: Double standards

    Hello hello! I agree that there are definitely stripper-held double standards not only involving the fact that many of us think most customers are "pathetic", but also the fact that many of us disparage prostitutes.

    As far as the general culture is concerned, I believe that most of the biological arguments for the birth of the DS are faulty, since these standards do not exist in many matriarchal/matrilineal societies (like the Mosuo of China), and are much less prevalent in ones where economic power is more thoroughly distributed between the sexes.

    Since concerns about paternity have been assuaged with the onset of better reproductive technology, all that's left is the issue of the children being provided for. Since we can see the difference in cultural sexual perceptions between matri/patri societies, the link is between economic dependence IMO. Obviously religious beliefs play a huge part in it, but I think that as women are able to take care of themselves and their children, the need for a man's approval is drastically lessened, and so the dynamics have the opportunity to even out.

  3. #3
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Double standards

    "Slut: A woman with the morals of a man." To me, that sums up the double standard nicely.

    Sure there's double standards, in clubs and in here. You have guys sneering at dancers as lowlifes while they patronize those "lowlifes" compulsively. You have dancers rolling their eyes at guys pathetic enough to go to stripclubs while catering to those pathetic guys' egos. You have gender and ethnic and racial and belief-biased people, except when it comes to their own gender, ethnicity, race, and belief structures.

    But I think that's a reflection of the human condition as a whole. I've been looking for a group of people who act consistently for their betterment, without bias among each other, and I just can't find them. Heck, even chimps are warlike and territorial. It must be hard-coded in or something.

  4. #4
    TheSexKitten
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    Default Re: Double standards

    True... what is it with us primates?! We will be our own destruction, I swear!

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double standards

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSexKitten View Post

    As far as the general culture is concerned, I believe that most of the biological arguments for the birth of the DS are faulty, since these standards do not exist in many matriarchal/matrilineal societies (like the Mosuo of China), and are much less prevalent in ones where economic power is more thoroughly distributed between the sexes.

    Since concerns about paternity have been assuaged with the onset of better reproductive technology, all that's left is the issue of the children being provided for. Since we can see the difference in cultural sexual perceptions between matri/patri societies, the link is between economic dependence IMO. Obviously religious beliefs play a huge part in it, but I think that as women are able to take care of themselves and their children, the need for a man's approval is drastically lessened, and so the dynamics have the opportunity to even out.
    Well put, indeed. I wonder how much of it is cultural, though, too--the sheer conservative fear of behaving differently than our mothers and fathers have raised us, and the patterns our peers have expected us to conform to. The behavior patterns that television, movies, and other media have constantly reinforced.* The double standard could be increasingly atavistic--but still rule--due to this inherent fear of social upheaval.

    But the economic factors promoting the continuation of the DS are of course still very much with us, so it's hard to say how much this is true.

    *To be sure we have shows like Sex and the City, in which promiscuous women are portrayed in a positive light. But shows are outnumbered by the sheer mass of propaganda to the contrary, and also regarded as being 'controversial', 'daring', cutting edge--in other words, flaunting the 'normal' sexual ethical codes. And sure enough, the strippers always have to be killed by some weirdo in every movie made about them.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
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    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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    Featured Member LilSweetVixen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double standards

    I'm glad to see that in the SC community you don't have this classic double standard. It still exists in the hetero mainstream world, but since I'm not hetero or mainstream, it's not my problem. Even if this double standard didn't exist, because I'd still be a stripper, bi, atheist, Satanist, etc. Never wanted the cookie-cutter middle American life, house in the burbs. Even promiscuous mainstream guys who brag that they're players and endorse the double standard end up getting hitched and living a life I would never want for myself, a life of monogamous drudgery, divorce, alimony, child support, split custody, and keeping up with the Joneses. Then all they have are their memories. Meanwhile I'll be in an open relationship with a hot porn star or a guy like Johnny Soporno, still stripping, and having my cake and eating it too.

    "You have demonic genius" -Naomi Wolf
    "I very much resent it when people - maybe with good intentions or from a progressive point of view - keep telling me, 'It's their culture' ... It's like saying the culture of Massachusetts is burning witches." -Azar Nafisi


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    Default Re: Double standards

    Bonobos are primates and very closely related to chipms, but with a much less violent community structure. Most of their social tensions are resolved through sex, not fighting. Just sayin, dont pick on the primates.

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double standards

    Quote Originally Posted by LilSweetVixen View Post
    I'm glad to see that in the SC community you don't have this classic double standard. It still exists in the hetero mainstream world, but since I'm not hetero or mainstream, it's not my problem...
    It could still easily be your problem. Say if you get attacked after work, and you call the cops, and they find out you are a dancer. There is a serious problem, stemming directly from the double standard, with law enforcement and sex industry workers. Not all cops in all cities, but a very large percentage of cops in the USA in general. Same problem with judges or juries.

    I commend you for your spirit, though, and desire to escape atavistic limitations.

    Also there is still a double standard thing going on in the clubs, too--though it might be less immediately obvious. Guys that get laid a lot acquire reps out of all proportion to their true sexual capabilities, I have seen this time and time again. Like my old friend, a DJ in Daytona they used to call 'The Anaconda', who had them lining up for it. Turns out he was average sized and not all that great in bed, according to three female friends of mine who fucked him.

    Women who sleep with a lot of guys are still looked down upon by many other women in the industry. I have seen this innumerable times and heard it in the dressing rooms.

    Men are still by far predominantly in control of the business as managers and owners, perhaps far more so than in other businesses. They also tend to regard the women working for them as being inferior in a number of ways, and tend to behave in a sexually predatory fashion. And managers, no matter how repulsive they might be physically, wind up fucking an amazing number of dancers simply because they control the clubs. In ten years working the clubs I it has become quite obvious to me that the DS is alive and kicking, despite the surface progress.

    But don't let me discourage you, please. Be free and revel in that freedom. Don't let the bastards grind you down.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

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    Featured Member LilSweetVixen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double standards

    I'm surprised to hear that there are strippers who look down on promiscuous women. Here there is a thread called "how many cocks have you had" where many of the dancers say they had had sex with over 30 men.

    "You have demonic genius" -Naomi Wolf
    "I very much resent it when people - maybe with good intentions or from a progressive point of view - keep telling me, 'It's their culture' ... It's like saying the culture of Massachusetts is burning witches." -Azar Nafisi


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    Default Re: Double standards

    Quote Originally Posted by Djoser View Post
    It could still easily be your problem. Say if you get attacked after work, and you call the cops, and they find out you are a dancer. There is a serious problem, stemming directly from the double standard, with law enforcement and sex industry workers. Not all cops in all cities, but a very large percentage of cops in the USA in general. Same problem with judges or juries.

    I commend you for your spirit, though, and desire to escape atavistic limitations.

    Also there is still a double standard thing going on in the clubs, too--though it might be less immediately obvious. Guys that get laid a lot acquire reps out of all proportion to their true sexual capabilities, I have seen this time and time again. Like my old friend, a DJ in Daytona they used to call 'The Anaconda', who had them lining up for it. Turns out he was average sized and not all that great in bed, according to three female friends of mine who fucked him.

    Women who sleep with a lot of guys are still looked down upon by many other women in the industry. I have seen this innumerable times and heard it in the dressing rooms.

    Men are still by far predominantly in control of the business as managers and owners, perhaps far more so than in other businesses. They also tend to regard the women working for them as being inferior in a number of ways, and tend to behave in a sexually predatory fashion. And managers, no matter how repulsive they might be physically, wind up fucking an amazing number of dancers simply because they control the clubs. In ten years working the clubs I it has become quite obvious to me that the DS is alive and kicking, despite the surface progress.

    But don't let me discourage you, please. Be free and revel in that freedom. Don't let the bastards grind you down.
    This reminded me of something I saw at a previous club. The manager was a sleaze, a pervert, a chauvinist pig (and far worse) yet many of the women slept with him. It became a joke to other dancers to call him a stud. The dancers engaging in the behaviour were looked down upon as hookers. I think to be honest all involved were promiscuous, but I really didn't care. It didn't affect me so why should I engage in name calling when everyone has done questionable things? I think in general strippers are more open sexually and many men (and women not in the business) resent it because they aren't being "the way they are supposed to".

    I think it boils down to mainstream society and how women and men should act differently. Women are expected to like shoes, babies, weddings, etc. while guys are expected to like sex, "manly" things, etc. I think this is bs and hate stereotyping anyone. In fact I loathe most "girly" things and tend to prefer many "manly" pursuits (video games for example).

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double standards

    Quote Originally Posted by LilSweetVixen View Post
    I'm surprised to hear that there are strippers who look down on promiscuous women. Here there is a thread called "how many cocks have you had" where many of the dancers say they had had sex with over 30 men.
    Well that doesn't sound like all that many to me--though it's not a small number either, lol. But yeah some of the dancers do look down on them, from what I've seen. Or on men too sometimes. I had a dancer ex that gave me endless shit for sleeping with a couple dancers--before we ever met--at one club I worked in (before I figured out it was stupid and could get you fired!), even though the women totally came on to me not the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    This reminded me of something I saw at a previous club. The manager was a sleaze, a pervert, a chauvinist pig (and far worse) yet many of the women slept with him...

    I think in general strippers are more open sexually and many men (and women not in the business) resent it because they aren't being "the way they are supposed to".

    I think it boils down to mainstream society and how women and men should act differently. Women are expected to like shoes, babies, weddings, etc. while guys are expected to like sex, "manly" things, etc. I think this is bs and hate stereotyping anyone. In fact I loathe most "girly" things and tend to prefer many "manly" pursuits (video games for example).
    Agreed to all three. I have seen more managers (also some bouncers and DJs) who were butt-ugly, who thought they were Joe fucking Stud because they got laid by a lot of dancers--and then even more would sleep with them because of their attitude! Like 'what's wrong with this picture?', lol...

    And yeah a lot of guys are clearly threatened by promiscuous women, and love to use the 'slut' label, while congratulating their pals for being 'Players' for doing exactly the same thing. Fuck off assholes.

    And the forced gender roles suck. It starts very early when boys are expected to watch football after Thanksgiving dinner while the women and girls hang in the kitchen, etc. I'd be bored to death and hated football even then so was 'the weird kid.' To this day I tend to defy the gender straightjacket, sometimes deliberately like when the sports fanatics are bellowing and stomping about some hugely famous big jock and I ask what sport it is.

    It works really well because I really don't have a clue who any of these motherfuckers are, so it's genuine and they sense that. Also they can't deploy the standard 'You're a pussy if you don't like football/basketball/whatthefuckeverball shit', since 99 times out of a hundred I could easily kick their fucking asses.

    And I get all mushy about the kitties, which has raised a few eyebrows I know. I suck at fixing cars and have no idea what model is what or what they are called, ask me if I care about that either? (Though I do think Porsches are nice) OK I am digressing a bit but you get the idea.

    I like women who can fix cars and hate weddings...

    But you know maybe we just need to be patient. It wasn't all THAT long ago that women weren't ever seen in the ranks of the executives or CEOs, that 'Father Knows Best' was a huge TV show, etc. Hopefully by the time our kids grow up there will be less forced gender role playing and the Double Standard will be kicked to the curb. I suspect it will die a slow death though, and linger on for another hundred years at least, in one form or another.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

    ______________________________________

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    Default Re: Double standards

    "You don't get any medals for surrendering son" I think grandad put it best honestly. Men are for the most part the sexual pursuers so it makes sense that sex is treated as an achievement while the opposite is true of a female.

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    Moderator Djoser's Avatar
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    Default Re: Double standards

    What's interesting to me is that there have been a lot of women who have adapted very readily to the World Power Politics game, and to an even greater extent in the world of Big Business, since these realms were opened to women starting around the 60s. Not all that long ago in the greater scale of history.

    So claiming they aren't suited for competition in what was formerly an exclusively male domain, as some guys will, isn't a valid argument.

    Like Margaret Thatcher for instance. Whatever you think of her politics, whether she should have stomped the Falkland Islands like that and so forth--she did go toe to toe with the other leaders of the great powers for many years.

    Of course there have been any number of women in the past who turned the tables in a big way, like for insttance Hatshepsut, Cleopatra, Theodora, Catherine the Great, Elizabeth of England, and my personal favorite, Artemisia of Halicarnassus at the Battle of Salamis. But then the men always managed to keep the women from trying the same thing and things went back to 'normal'.

    Women basically being bought and sold, but then having spirit resorting to the use of feminine wiles to compensate. I think it's far more this than a biological thing going on--several thousand years of heritage to be transcended.
    You must have chaos within you to give birth to a dancing star.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    Free your mind, and your ass will follow.
    George Clinton

    ______________________________________

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