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Thread: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

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    Default Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007...ecoming-h.html

    I'm seriously considering a nat. gas vehicle. We have a really high # of fueling stations here in UT. The gas is less than $1 a gallon and nat. gas gets really close to the same # of miles reg. gas does.

    I'm still researching this. I'm not clear on some key details yet ( such as how easy it would be to fill up if I do a road trip .... which is rare anyway since I usually fly everywhere ).

    The state gov. has a fleet of these and every year they sell used ones . They are cheaper than gas/electric hybrids.
    Last edited by carmen_b; 05-21-2008 at 01:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    on a BTU basis, which is the driving force for prices of natural gas and propane versus oil, natural gas is at a record high of $11.51 per MMbtu. However this pales compared to the mmbtu price of gasoline which is in the $25 per MMbtu range right now. The reasons for this pricing disparity varies ... limited ability to transport gaseous natural gas long distances leads to low prices in some regions and much higher prices in other regions (northwest price is low nationally speaking). Also demand from regional power plants has a large effect on regional natural gas prices (with natural gas power plants concentrated on the east and west coasts). Add to this the fact that America has a limited capacity to import natural gas from foreign sources, and at the same time environmental advocates are blocking the construction of new power plants fueled by anything besides natural gas, setting the stage for a domestic supply shortage with associated major price increases in the near future.

    Yet another large factor is the (so far) absence of a mechanism to charge road tax on natural gas / biofuels / electricity used for motor vehicles. Road tax amounts to 20% of the pump price of gasoline in states like NY and CA, whereas natural gas and biofuels are (so far) escaping this markup. However, as the use of other fuels besides gasoline / diesel proliferates, states are actively looking to alternative methods of collecting road tax i.e. a vehicle registration markup based on type of vehicle, a vehicle inspection markup based on annual miles driven, even GPS tracking of which roads vehicles are driven on at what specific times (with a huge tax applied to interstate highway use at rush hour). If and when these alternative road tax collection methods are enacted, the present 20% (or so) tax avoidance pricing advantage of natural gas / biodiesel / hybrid electric vehicles will disappear.

    I guess the bottom line is that converting a vehicle to natural gas involves many thousands of dollars worth of extra investment in CNG vehicle storage tanks, CNG fuel flow controls to the engine. However the technology is well proven and, for the moment at least, enjoys about a 2:1 cost savings in fuel for zero road tax CNG versus fully taxed gasoline.

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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    I've read good things about the natural gas-powered Honda Civic. According to Honda's website, the suggested price for one is $24,590.

    http://automobiles.honda.com/civic-gx/

    The page you linked says that in Utah, you can get $7,000 in federal and state tax credits for buying one. Also if your home is connected to a natural gas line, Honda offers a natural gas pump, so you can refill your gas tank at your home instead of having to go to a gas station. It might also be cheaper this way. I read that it costs $500 - $1,500 to have this installed.

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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    it sounds like a short-term cost shifting rather than a viable long-term solution. the supply of natural gas is plummeting-- same as oil, really.

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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    ^^^ agreed that limitations on the ability to import natural gas will probably lead to an even worse future shortage situation than oil.

    About the cost shifting, to reiterate ... the cost effectiveness of natural gas fueled vehicles is contingent on three major factors, A - other taxpayers' money helping to fund the purchase of the conversion, B - other taxpayers' money paying for natural gas vehicle owners' avoided 'road tax', and C - the fact that in many areas of the USA the 'price' of natural gas to retail customers is not yet 100% deregulated.

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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    Quote Originally Posted by carmen_b View Post
    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007...ecoming-h.html

    I'm seriously considering a nat. gas vehicle. We have a really high # of fueling stations here in UT. The gas is less than $1 a gallon and nat. gas gets really close to the same # of miles reg. gas does.

    I'm still researching this. I'm not clear on some key details yet ( such as how easy it would be to fill up if I do a road trip .... which is rare anyway since I usually fly everywhere ).

    The state gov. has a fleet of these and every year they sell used ones . They are cheaper than gas/electric hybrids.
    Any non-standard vehicle will always
    i) Cost More
    ii) High Cost of Maintanence
    iii) Fail more
    iv) Overall pain in the ass

    Then you can make a movie 'Who Killed the Gas Car?". and there will be plenty of idiots who'll believe anything against Corporations, Government, Rich People and you recoup your lost money

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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    That's not true. Electric powered vehicles, such as the EV1, are much more reliable than standard vehicles. Their main disadvantage, and reason they never became popular, is because of their limited range and the long charging time for their batteries. The Prius uses both an electric motor and internal combustion engine for power, and as far as I know, isn't any less reliable than standard vehicles. If the internal combustion engine and everything associated with it, were removed from the Prius and replaced with more batteries, it would be even more reliable. The only problem is that it would have the same problems of limited ranges and long charging time that I mentioned before. Perhaps these problems will eventually be solved with lithium batteries.

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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    a clarification needs to be made that NEW electric powered vehicles are more reliable than standard vehicles. However, the jury is still out as to the long term reliability / maintenance cost involved with electric powered vehicles ... and particularly so from the point where the vehicle reaches 5 years of age such that the battery pack starts failing and the electric motors and electronics start developing issues.

    Similarly, the jury is still out as far as 'Blue Book' or insurance valuations for 5 year old hybrids. At the moment the 'political correctness' and limited quantity of available second-hand hybrid vehicles tends to increase demand, while real repair cost data regarding 5 year old hybrid vehicles is extremely scarce. Additionally, hybrid manufacturers are deliberately limiting the quantity of vehicles imported into the USA to stay below the 60,000 vehicle per manufacturer gov't tax credit ceiling ( new hybrid buyers certainly don't want to find out after the fact that they bought the 60001st 2008 American prius, thus losing thousands of dollars worth of gov't subsidy tax credit payments).

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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    ^ It's a lot to read up on. I'll report back. I should test drive a used one soon.

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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    What price range are you looking at for your vehicle?

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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    $6000-$7000. Small pick up or car ( I don't care if half the trunk is a fuel tank .... I only need to fit 2-3 people usually anyway ).

    The state of Utah has a fleet that they sell off every few years ( to buy new ones for their employees ). Why ? Have one ?

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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    My goal is to keep my costs the same. Right now my payment is $100 ( $3,000 car loan) , my gas is roughly $150- $160 a month. If I reverse those figures , I'll be even. If I add in the tax credits, I'll be ahead. I'm still researching this though. I don't want a 6-7k investment to be obsolete in 3-4 years or the fuel for it to be marketing so heavily commercially that the costs there increase. Might be too many variables right now.

    I don't care if it's inconvenient to fuel in other areas. Utah and Wy have 90 fueling stations. Northern CA ( where I'm at 2nd most often ) has a bunch too.

    I've gotten too lazy for roadtrips and fly everywhere anyway. Oddly enough ... as economical as I am in my daily life, when I travel , I usually drive sports cars that get awful gas mileage ( I pay extra for them , not a company expense ... it's my little travel luxury ) .

  13. #13
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    Available in very limited quantities later this year, in places that have the infrastructure to fuel it. With 50+ mpg of hydrogen fuel, a more efficient fuel manufacturing process than gasoline, and an exhaust product of water - just water - it might catch on in the years to come.

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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    I remember when I lived in Northern IL. in the early 90's the local gas company had converted all their vehicles to natural gas, a few other companies that had fleets of vehicles had as well. If you wanted to convert your car they would help you get it done and would free of charge come out and run a gas line into your garage and install a small compressor so you could fill your car up overnite.

    This was when gas was about $1.00 a gallon now that it is $4.00 one would think that it is a more popular idea.

    With most families having two cars, converting one for daily comuter type driving and keeping one for long trips where you needed to still use gas would seem to be feasable. You could also just rent a car for those few times a year you needed one thus saving all the expense of having/manintaing a second car.

    It is a not exactly true to say that hydrogen cars, either fuel cell or internal combustion produce nothing but water.

    At the car, yes this is true, but for now the main source of hydrogen is making it from natural gas, after you remove the hydrogen you are left with the carbon to deal with.

    An alternative would be to make it from water via electroyisis, the only by byproduct being oxygen. The down side of this is it requires a lot of electricity so the question is how do you make the electricity. Nuclear power would seem to be the best answer but I don't that happening. Solar or wind I don't see that making enough.

    You would also need to worry about the source of the water, you would need to use either sea water or maybe fresh water from the great lakes. Too many other places in the county are already suffering from drought effects and could not afford to use/loose however many, most likely millions of gallons of water a hydrogen plant would require.

    A tanker built along the lines of an LNG tanker with a reactor onboard that would operate in international waters would seem feasable but it would be expensive to build and when building the hydrogen terminal, you could run into all the same NIMBY problems that you see when someone want to build an LNG terminal.

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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    A nautural gas powered hybrid especially the plug in type would seem to be worth looking at as well.

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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    With 50+ mpg of hydrogen fuel, a more efficient fuel manufacturing process than gasoline, and an exhaust product of water - just water - it might catch on in the years to come.
    the cost of hydrogen is directly proportional to the cost of natural gas used as the feedstock, and the cost of electricity used to 'crack' it. So far all analysis of hydrogen fuel economics has relied on imports from the midwest ... which make use of dirt cheap coal fired electricity. However, with these coal fired power plants under pressure due to CO2 emissions (net CO2 produced by electrolytic hydrogen cracking are sky high - but most of it occurs at the coal fired power plant stack and not at the vehicle's tailpipe), the use of natural gas fired electricity winds up with hydrogen costing far more and producing a similar amount of total CO2 as simply using the natural gas as vehicle fuel.


    If you wanted to convert your car they would help you get it done and would free of charge come out and run a gas line into your garage and install a small compressor so you could fill your car up overnite.

    This was when gas was about $1.00 a gallon now that it is $4.00 one would think that it is a more popular idea.
    state governments are squashing this, because they now recognize the lost 'road tax' revenues resulting from using (untaxed) natural gas / hydrogen / electricity as a vehicle 'fuel'. Some state gov'ts are actually starting to bust bio-diesel owners who are scavenging used oils or purchasing (untaxed) oils at WalMart ! A couple of states are researching mandatory GPS installation in vehicles, with 'road tax' billed to the vehicle owner based on miles driven - independent of what fuel the vehicle actually uses. Other states are researching billing the vehicle owner based on miles driven as part of the annual vehicle inspection / registration requirement. IMHO this is ultimately the fair thing to do versus states adding a 20% 'road tax' to the actual wholesale price of gasoline but letting natural gas / hydrogen / hybrid-electric vehicles slide without having to pay a similar 'road tax' even though they are using the very same roads.

  17. #17
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    Honda has developed its own solar cells, twice as efficient as current commercial solar cells, to generate the electricity for hydrogen processing.

    It also produces a home hydrogen production unit that runs on natural gas, although that obviously has limited application to the households that 1) have the room for it, 2) can afford to have it, and 3) are limited enough in their driving to fuel up at home regularly.

    The well-to-wheel carbon output of the Honda hydrogen car is less than half that of a gas-driven car, not even taking into consideration the use of less carbon-producing electric sources, such as nuclear, wind, solar, hydro. Honda is also hard at working to develop hydrogen production from sources other than natural gas. I don't know the progress there.

    It's not perfect, but it's a start on a better path. We'll see if the market goes there, particularly as those hydrocarbons coming out of the ground keep getting so much more expensive.

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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    It's not perfect, but it's a start on a better path. We'll see if the market goes there, particularly as those hydrocarbons coming out of the ground keep getting so much more expensive.
    I'm in complete agreement ... in theory. However at this point in time, it's impossible to realistically evaluate any of the true costs versus benefits due to gov't subsidies for hydrogen fueled vehicles, gov't subsidies for solar, gov't subsidies for wind power, hydrogen fuel being temporarily free from 'road tax' etc.

    All of those cost factors do exist, but for the moment at least a hydrogen (or natural gas, or hybrid, or electric) vehicle owner's 'neighbors' are paying for those costs instead of the hydrogen (or natural gas, or hybrid, or electric) vehicle owner himself. My concern is that the present subsidy and/or 'road tax' exemption situation could turn around on a dime as federal / state budgets come under increasing pressure. This could be particularly problematic for someone who makes a large long term investment in a hydrogen (or natural gas, or hybrid, or electric) vehicle only to see the 'rules changed' after the fact - i.e. they have spent the big money but won't be receiving the vehicle purchase tax credit, wont be receiving future subsidies or future 'road tax' exemption, that the payback equation was depending on.

  19. #19
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: Natural gas vehicles, anyone own one ? Heard good or bad things ?

    Then I think your attack is more properly against taxing (or tax-relieving) policies rather than the straw man of scientific dubiousness. The alternative is to keep making the same cars, burning the same oil, until we no longer have a sustainable supply. And then we can go to crisis management. But that doesn't sound like a conservative approach.

    And keeping in mind, if I do get a hydrogen car (which I won't - wrong area), I'll still be paying for my neighbor's gas car and gasoline through subsidies and tax breaks to oil companies.

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