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Thread: AA and legal help, please

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    Featured Member Perry's Avatar
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    Default AA and legal help, please

    Okay, so I got a DUI last summer. Please see my reahab thread for the full details. I'm still gratefull for my time in the program, and I've recognized, and am comming to terms with my problem with alcohol. But I simply cannot comply with my sentance of attending AA for 18 months.

    Previouse groups have refused to sign my papers when I refuse to speak. Others have simply done their damndest to get my freaking number. And the best of the lot has completely ostrized me for being an atheist.

    All that being said, I'm perfectly fucked as it's a violation of probation not to attend these meetings. I could face jail time because I'm not a Christian.

    I was wondering if anyone knows how to go about appealing the sentance? Or maybe knows a good lawyer that would take this to a higher court? I have rights that grant me the freedom of religeon - or at least I did untill I was on probation

    Any and all help would be fantabulouse.

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    Featured Member dangerousdiva's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    This an alternative to AA/NA. A lot of probation, drug court, ect... like programs accept it in lieu of AA/NA.

    I highly recommend it, as it's not religious centered or higher powered centered at all. It uses self empowerment and cognitive reasoning techniques to combat addiction, which just seems more logical to me.

    http://www.smartrecovery.org/intro/index.htm

    Good Luck!

    ETA
    They also have a support forum

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    God/dess Bunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    Can't you just go to the meetings to avoid the violation even if you aren't into what they preach? Also, what state are you in? That might help to know if you are looking for an attorney.

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    Veteran Member Morgan_TX's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    ^^^I don't think she can. You have to understand that AA is not just about the meetings. They EXPECT you to be completely open to all these strangers about EVERYTHING (including personal contact info). For example, many AA groups require that you have a "sponsor". They expect you to tell your story to the entire group of strangers. And the OP says that they're refusing to sign off on her papers because she doesn't feel comfortable giving that kind of information to them.

    From AA: "We discovered that a key factor in this progress seemed to be humility, coupled with reliance upon a Power greater than ourselves. While some members prefer to call this Power “God,” we were told that this was purely a matter of personal interpretation; we could conceive of the Power in any terms we thought fit. Since alcohol had obviously been a power greater than ourselves during our drinking days, we had to admit that perhaps we could not run the whole show
    ourselves and that it made sense to turn elsewhere for help. As we have grown in A.A., our concept of a greater Power has usually become more mature. But it has always been our personal concept; no one has forced it upon us."

    Oh, and here's the "Twelve Steps":

    THE TWELVE STEPS
    OF ALCOHOLICS ANONYMOUS
    1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—
    that our lives had become unmanageable.
    2. Came to believe that a Power greater
    than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
    3. Made a decision to turn our will and our
    lives over to the care of God as we understood
    Him.
    4. Made a searching and fearless moral
    inventory of ourselves.
    5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to
    another human being the exact nature of our
    wrongs.
    6. Were entirely ready to have God remove
    all these defects of character.
    7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
    8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed,
    and became willing to make amends to them all.
    9. Made direct amends to such people wherever
    possible, except when to do so would
    injure them or others.
    10. Continued to take personal inventory
    and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
    11. Sought through prayer and meditation
    to improve our conscious contact with God, as
    we understood Him, praying only for knowledge
    of His will for us and the power to carry
    that out.
    12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the
    result of these steps, we tried to carry this
    message to alcoholics, and to practice these
    principles in all our affairs.



    As an atheist, it's pretty darn hard to comply with these steps. For the AA folks, her unwillingness to admit that there's a "Higher Power" means that she's failing the FIRST step! This is part of the reason the AA requirement is not truly Constitutional.

    Contact me for a psychic reading or spiritual advice!
    I can contact all my exes at once by drawing a pentacle on the floor, sacrificing a ram, and shouting "Hail Satan". Convenience is a must.


    Quote Originally Posted by MissAlethea View Post
    I don't want to touch your pee-pee. And that's what you want. I guarantee you didn't approach because of my sparkling character.
    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    Well treat like a glass slipper. Go out and find the Prince that magnum fits.

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    God/dess Andygirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    There are plenty of AA meetings that will sign your court card just for showing up. It isn't actually an AA thing to harass people like you've described. That's people trying to run it their way. You can tell them to stick it up their asses and still get "credit" for attending.

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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    I believe the court can only make you attend, not make you participate. The signature I think just certifies you were there. If the group refuses to sign it, call the main office and complain. You might also ask your probation officer what your options are.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

    If you're in your twenties and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're in you're forties and aren't a conservative, you have no brain - Winston Churchill

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    God/dess Sirona's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    You don't have to believe in a Christian god to get through AA.
    God is in reference to who or whatever your higher power is.



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    Veteran Member Morgan_TX's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    ^^^But an atheist by definition believes that there is NO higher power.

    It's true that AA is not specifically a Christian organization, but it IS a religious organization.

    Contact me for a psychic reading or spiritual advice!
    I can contact all my exes at once by drawing a pentacle on the floor, sacrificing a ram, and shouting "Hail Satan". Convenience is a must.


    Quote Originally Posted by MissAlethea View Post
    I don't want to touch your pee-pee. And that's what you want. I guarantee you didn't approach because of my sparkling character.
    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    Well treat like a glass slipper. Go out and find the Prince that magnum fits.

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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    Have your friends sign your card. The court doesn't know who went to meetings.

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    God/dess Andygirl's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan_TX View Post
    ^^^But an atheist by definition believes that there is NO higher power.

    It's true that AA is not specifically a Christian organization, but it IS a religious organization.

    No, it isn't. Belief in a higher power is a belief that there is something greater than yourself. For some, that is god, for others it is nature or the universe. Yes, AA is a spiritual program, but definitely not a religious one. Many atheists and agnostics have been helped by the program.

    And it isn't like there's a test or a way for the people in the group to make you do anything you don't want to do. Just because some of them are overbearing doesn't mean that's how AA is supposed to be run.

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    Veteran Member MissDewdrop's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    Could your higher power be "humanism," of course in a secular sense? In this context, humanity is discussed in ethical (some say metaphysical) terms. http://www.secularhumanism.org/

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    God/dess Sirona's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    Quote Originally Posted by Andygirl View Post
    No, it isn't. Belief in a higher power is a belief that there is something greater than yourself. For some, that is god, for others it is nature or the universe. Yes, AA is a spiritual program, but definitely not a religious one. Many atheists and agnostics have been helped by the program.
    What she said.



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    God/dess Bunny's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    Maybe all AA meetings are not the same. I have a friend who got a DWI and was court ordered to attend meetings. He said he met a lot of good drinking buddies at the meetings. He said a lot of the people who were court ordered to go but didn't want to quit drinking would go out drinking afterwards.

    I'm not saying this is the way it should be or that AA is bad, but I think if it's something you just have to do to deal with a charge it's possible to not really get into the AA thing.

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    Veteran Member Morgan_TX's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    Not all atheists want religious or spiritual programming shoved down their throats as a condition of their probation.

    I think AA/NA has helped a lot of people. But when it is a condition of probation and is court-ordered that it be SPECIFICALLY AA/NA, it violates the Establishment Clause, as per Inouye v. Kemya

    Contact me for a psychic reading or spiritual advice!
    I can contact all my exes at once by drawing a pentacle on the floor, sacrificing a ram, and shouting "Hail Satan". Convenience is a must.


    Quote Originally Posted by MissAlethea View Post
    I don't want to touch your pee-pee. And that's what you want. I guarantee you didn't approach because of my sparkling character.
    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    Well treat like a glass slipper. Go out and find the Prince that magnum fits.

  15. #15
    God/dess Sirona's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    ^^^ Well people could just not get a DUI and avoid the whole situation too right?



  16. #16
    BrunetteGoddess
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    I believe the court can only make you attend, not make you participate. The signature I think just certifies you were there. If the group refuses to sign it, call the main office and complain. You might also ask your probation officer what your options are.
    Yep, you do NOT have to participate to get the court card signed. If you're having this problem, talk to a lawyer. Better yet, find out about that alternative mentioned, because they cannot require you to attend AA.

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    Veteran Member Morgan_TX's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirona View Post
    ^^^ Well people could just not get a DUI and avoid the whole situation too right?
    Let's be perfectly honest--not everyone who gets a DUI is an alcoholic. It's ridiculous to require someone to attend alcohol rehab when they're not an alcoholic.

    Thank you, MADD!

    Contact me for a psychic reading or spiritual advice!
    I can contact all my exes at once by drawing a pentacle on the floor, sacrificing a ram, and shouting "Hail Satan". Convenience is a must.


    Quote Originally Posted by MissAlethea View Post
    I don't want to touch your pee-pee. And that's what you want. I guarantee you didn't approach because of my sparkling character.
    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    Well treat like a glass slipper. Go out and find the Prince that magnum fits.

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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    Oh god I hated NA, I was such a brat to them. Basically I refused to admit that I was powerless. I believe in these times you NEED strength of self. No-one should be able to MAKE you admit anything.
    The steps do work for some people, but there are other groups with other methods that work, I can vouch for this, 3 years clean as a whistle.
    I'm sure there's plenty of information on the net and in your library, maybe have a look around and start building your case.
    Good luck
    XXXS

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    God/dess Paris's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirona View Post
    You don't have to believe in a Christian god to get through AA.
    God is in reference to who or whatever your higher power is.
    Atheists have no higher power. It is a "what you see is what you get" way of thinking.

    With that said, can you tap into your stripper hustle sense to play along for that one hour a week (or whatever is required)? AA is full of pathological liars and it wouldn't shock anyone that you were just playing along as a requirement of your probation.

    If you are required to talk, just spin some BS to make the group happy.

    I think AA is a crock. I know it works for some people, but just about everyone I've known that is deeply involved would have gotten the same results if they just went to a regular church that forbids drinking/drugs.

    I hope it works out for you. Keep us posted as to how you are able to deal with this, because I think a lot of people have been in your exact situation.


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    God/dess Sirona's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan_TX View Post
    Let's be perfectly honest--not everyone who gets a DUI is an alcoholic. It's ridiculous to require someone to attend alcohol rehab when they're not an alcoholic.

    Thank you, MADD!
    I totally agree that not everyone who gets pulled for DUI is an alcoholic.
    However I think everyone knows it's not a great idea to drive drunk and what the possible consequences are.

    In the grand scheme of things having to attend a few meetings isn't tha big of a deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    Atheists have no higher power. It is a "what you see is what you get" way of thinking.
    That's not really true. A higher power does not need to refer to a religious figure.

    A Higher Power can be anything or anyone, dead or alive, that the member feels is adequate – the sky, the Sun, the ocean, Nature, consciousness, existential freedom, their twelve-step group, God, science, Buddha, gravity; it simply should be something "greater" than themselves.



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    God/dess Paris's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    ^^I have to agree. But AA does only work for 12% that attend meetings. And those 12% probably would have been able to quit on their own anyway.


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    God/dess Sirona's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    OK we aren't really debating whether or not AA works.
    We're debating if it's somehow it's an violation of the constitution and therefore unfair to the OP to be ordered to attend them.

    The fact is it isn't.

    Look i'm not saying she's an alcoholic or a bad person etc.
    I'm saying she's someone who made a decision, all be it a bad one, and now she's gotta suck it up, take responsibility and face the consequences.

    It could have been worse. She could have wrecked into someone else's car and hurt or killed them. Then it would have been a lot more inconvenient than some meetings.

    In addition,her original post made it clear she felt that AA was a Christian organization and the fact is that it isn't.

    This isn't the end of the world.

    Go, get it over with and learn a lesson.



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    God/dess Sirona's Avatar
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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    Quote Originally Posted by Samba View Post
    This seems like it makes sense, in step two. But then you turn your will and your life over to your higher power, admit your faults to your HP, ask it to remove your defects, and pray for it's will for you.

    How to you turn your will and your life over to those things? It's a bait and switch.
    I think we will have to respectfully agree to disagree on this one.

    I see people give over themselves to things like science or nature(as examples) all the time. Then again I know some really weird folks.



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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    ^^ You really don't think it is a violation of the constitution? The simple fact that the word "god" is used in their literature seems to violate the first amendment.


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    Default Re: AA and legal help, please

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    ^^ You really don't think it is a violation of the constitution? The simple fact that the word "god" is used in their literature seems to violate the first amendment.
    Nope I don't.

    They mention god but they don't force you to practice any particular religion.
    You can believe in whatever works for you.
    Therefore they maintain the individuals freedom of religion.



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