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Thread: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    WARNING: the following types of people will likely feel like their head will explode after reading the latest news on the Guantanamo prison. Those who may wish to skip this topic include but are not limited to - Pro-War advocates, Republicans, those with racist and or bigoted views about Muslims/people from or related to those from the Middle East.

    If you are among the above groups and still wish to comment in this threadPLEASE refrain from posting flames in this topic, thanks!




    Here are some snippets from the article:

    In its third rebuke of the Bush administration's treatment of prisoners, the court ruled 5-4 that the government is violating the rights of prisoners being held indefinitely and without charges at the U.S. naval base in Cuba.

    The court said not only that the detainees have rights under the Constitution, but that the system the administration has put in place to classify them as enemy combatants and review those decisions is inadequate.

    The court has ruled twice previously that people held at Guantanamo without charges can go into civilian courts to ask that the government justify their continued detention. Each time, the administration and Congress, then controlled by Republicans, changed the law to try to close the courthouse doors to the detainees.

    The court specifically struck down a provision of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 that denies Guantanamo detainees the right to file petition of habeas corpus.

    Habeas corpus is a centuries-old legal principle, enshrined in the Constitution, that allows courts to determine whether a prisoner is being held illegally.
    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

    Benjamin Franklin

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    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Pan Dah View Post
    Hmmm...

    What do you figure the odds are that Bush will try to pull an Andrew Jackson?
    Even Nixon abided by Supreme Court decisions most notably in the famous "tapes" case.
    Bush has proven to be quite weasely in his respect for Supreme court decisions he does not like so your question is NOT an unfair one.

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Pan Dah View Post
    Hmmm...

    What do you figure the odds are that Bush will try to pull an Andrew Jackson?
    Considering the following part of the article, I'd say that sadly odds are pretty high.


    "The court has ruled twice previously that people held at Guantanamo without charges can go into civilian courts to ask that the government justify their continued detention. Each time, the administration and Congress, then controlled by Republicans, changed the law to try to close the courthouse doors to the detainees. "

    However, the rulings are now part of historical data about this whole mess of an illegal and unbelievably immoral invasion and occupation of Iraq. Not to mention the thousands and thousands of innocent civilians who have been mass murdered on the orders and under the direction and discretion of GW Bush.

    These rulings ofcourse mean that Bush and all his cronies and supporters will have yet another strike against them in the eyes of most the world forever more.

    I also have a small glimmer of hope that this 3rd ruling will aid in potential future prosecution of Bush and members of his administration that will result in jail time of an extended length if not the rest of some of their lives.


    A prosecution and sentence of that kind is (in my opinion) is the only way to fully repair our international reputation. BUT these 3 Supreme Court decisions regarding Gitmo are a great start on that road.
    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

    Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    i heard about this earlier i am quite pleased. that place seems like a concentration camp. get em in and out to jail or freedom, whichever they deserve from a fair trial.

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by i.breathe.in View Post
    i heard about this earlier i am quite pleased. that place seems like a concentration camp. get em in and out to jail or freedom, whichever they deserve from a fair trial.
    For all intensive purposes that is exactly what Gitmo is- you hit the nail on the head. That is why Gitmo refused for so long to allow human rights groups to check things out.

    Most of the people there are simply innocent civilians who were not lucky or rich enough to be able to flee during the US invasion of their country. They just got rounded up and tossed into jails where they have been held not only without EVEN BEING CHARGED with anything. Many have suffered much worse including death.

    Even worse yet, even children have been subjected to this kind of mistreatment.


    It's one thing to arrest and try people in an open and fair court proceedings but quite another to kidnap hundreds of humans, hold them indefinably without charge or trial.
    Unfortunately what has occurred under direct orders of our disgrace of a President and his administration has been the latter.
    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

    Benjamin Franklin

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    Justice Scalia's dissent pretty well sums things up ... " the nation will live to regret what the court has done today !"



    (snip)"Today the Court warps our Constitution in a way that goes beyond the narrow issue of the reach of the Suspension Clause, invoking judicially brainstormed separation-of-powers principles to establish a manipulable “functional” test for the extraterritorial reach of habeas corpus (and, no doubt, for the extraterritorial reach of other Constitutional protections as well). It blatantly misdescribes [sic] important precedents, most conspicuously Justice Jackson’s opinion for the Court in Johnson v. Eisentrager. It breaks a chain of precedent as old as the common law that prohibits judicial inquiry into detentions of aliens abroad absent statutory authorization. And, most tragically, it sets our military commanders the impossible task of proving to a civilian court, under whatever standards this Court devises in the future, that evidence supports the confinement of each and every enemy prisoner.

    The Nation will live to regret what the Court has done today. I dissent."(snip)

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    In reference to the children that Bush has demanded be held without charge or trial- from the link in my previous post.


    "There is nothing wrong with trying minors for crimes, if they have committed crimes. The problem is when you either hold minors without trial in shocking conditions, or try them before a military commission that, in the words of a prosecutor who refused to take part, "is rigged" he said. Even if these kids were involved in fighting - and Omar is the only one who the military pretends was - then there is a UN convention against the use of child soldiers. There is a general recognition in the civilized world that children should be treated differently from adults."

    Note that even a prosecutor for military commission says those so called 'trials' are designed to be rigged to find guilt. That is why there is a need for an open legal proceedings.


    I know that the war hawks will whine about how those detained are not from the US and somehow that is supposed to mean it's ok to violate every law we have on fair trial as well as all UN laws regarding the detention of people during war time. However, it doesn't matter if these prisoners are Americans or not because they are being HELD BY THE USA. It is simply a moral obligation (not to mention international law) to treat those who we "claim" to have the right to hold against their will the same legal right to a fair trial.

    Ofcourse all of this could have been avoided if Bush had not pulled us out of the World Court but then ofcourse he himself would be in jail by now! But I digress that is a subject for another day and time.
    Last edited by LadyLuck; 06-12-2008 at 03:57 PM.
    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    it sets our military commanders the impossible task of proving to a civilian court, under whatever standards this Court devises in the future, that evidence supports the confinement of each and every enemy prisoner.
    It's only impossible if and when there is no or not enough to evidence to support confinement.

    If there is actual proof of guilt then these people would have already been properly charged and given fair trials.



    Obviously the Bush administration simply CAN NOT provide reasonable evidence support confinement.

    I mean come on, it's been six effn years!!! There is no evidence. Never was any and for most of the cases I'm pretty darn sure there never will be either.
    Last edited by LadyLuck; 06-12-2008 at 04:02 PM.
    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    IMHO the bottom line resulting from today's Supreme Court decision will be to create a much more intense focus on the necessity of 'declarations of war' by the US congress before US troops become involved in any foreign conflict in any major way. This of course stems from the difference in Constitutional provisions during 'wartime' versus 'peacetime' i.e. the Suspension Clause. IMHO this will actually be a good thing in the long run, since today's SC ruling will have the effect of making a future 'undeclared war' a la Korea or Vietnam or Serbia or Iraq a practical impossibility - thus ending the future use of US troops as 'policemen to the world'. Of course, as Justice Scalia pointed out, this effect will also allow future despotic leaders to progress much farther before they need fear a US military response i.e. a 'declared war' against them - to the point where many more American and allied lives are likely to be lost before any 'declaration of war' and associated US military response would result. At least this would appear to be the case, based on the assumption that a democratic congressional majority is unlikely to legislate their way around today's SC ruling as they have as a result of previous rulings.

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    Senior Member Paul in Saudi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    You think that Tony Scalia is actually nuts? Every time the guy opens his mouth something stupid comes out.
    If I give all I have to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love; I gain nothing. Paul’s 1st Letter, 13th Chapter

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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    I agree with the ruling. It is time for some court cases to determine if they go to prison for life or not.

    I don't agree it is a concentration camp. There are not corpses stacked up, gold teeth pulled, work until death, ovens, medical experiments, stolen property, or mass executions. What a pathetic comparison. Liberal dribble about their fantasy view the world really is. Every holocaust revisionist would love to compare Gitmo to what happened in the camps.

    Some may be rounded up unfairly. For the seven or so years it has existed, Gitmo HAS released prisoners to return home. Some return and write books (like a British fellow) and some return to do more terrorism (like a Pakistani.)

    The awful truth is, if you hate Islam, Arabs, and Persians, then foisting these Taliban criminals back into the community to beat women, shoot men, and corrupt the youth into beasts is the best thing that can be done. Terrorists have managed to kill and maim more in the middle east in the name of hatred than we ever did in the name of peace.
    Last edited by Deogol; 06-13-2008 at 06:18 AM.

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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    IMHO the bottom line resulting from today's Supreme Court decision will be to create a much more intense focus on the necessity of 'declarations of war' by the US congress before US troops become involved in any foreign conflict in any major way. This of course stems from the difference in Constitutional provisions during 'wartime' versus 'peacetime' i.e. the Suspension Clause. IMHO this will actually be a good thing in the long run, since today's SC ruling will have the effect of making a future 'undeclared war' a la Korea or Vietnam or Serbia or Iraq a practical impossibility - thus ending the future use of US troops as 'policemen to the world'. Of course, as Justice Scalia pointed out, this effect will also allow future despotic leaders to progress much farther before they need fear a US military response i.e. a 'declared war' against them - to the point where many more American and allied lives are likely to be lost before any 'declaration of war' and associated US military response would result. At least this would appear to be the case, based on the assumption that a democratic congressional majority is unlikely to legislate their way around today's SC ruling as they have as a result of previous rulings.
    There is a lot of robotics, distance warfare, and strategic information usage in modern warfare these days. I believe this is why deaths are so far down compared to other conflicts of such a lasting nature.

    I also look forward to the US not being the world's police force. "The US must do something about Darfur!!!" Ah, no we don't. There are plenty of other countries who can meddle in that mess.

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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    i wouldnt claim to know everything that happens there, but im sure a lot more goes on then we know about.

    i think the only pathetic comparison you can make is one based on assumptions that you know what the hell is going inside a secret based detention prison when you dont.

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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    I don't agree it is a concentration camp. There are not corpses stacked up, gold teeth pulled, work until death, ovens, medical experiments, stolen property, or mass executions. What a pathetic comparison. Liberal dribble about their fantasy view the world really is. Every holocaust revisionist would love to compare Gitmo to what happened in the camps.
    American citizens of Japanese descent were put in concentration camps on the west coast after Pearl Harbor. There is a difference between Nazi Death Camps and concentration camps.
    Last edited by Dirty Ernie; 06-13-2008 at 08:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    some return to do more terrorism (like a Pakistani.)
    How is "a Pakistani" involved in terrorism...?

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    Tauries
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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by TheSexKitten View Post
    How is "a Pakistani" involved in terrorism...?
    This friend of Team Ladyluck seems to certainly be a peace loving vegetarian....

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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    So Arabs are Pakistani?

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Tauries View Post
    This friend of Team Ladyluck seems to certainly be a peace loving vegetarian....
    Thanks so much for respecting my no flame request. That's sarcasm in case you missed it.

    Please refrain from further flames of me (or anyone else) or I will ask the Mods to close this topic and then everyone interested in participating will know it is your fault it gets locked or deleted.


    In other words, play nice or don't play at all.
    Last edited by LadyLuck; 06-13-2008 at 01:51 PM.
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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Ernie View Post
    American citizens of Japanese descent were put in concentration camps on the west coast after Pearl Harbor. There is a difference between Nazi Death Camps and concentration camps.
    A most excellant point and thankyou for bringing it up.
    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Tauries View Post
    This friend of Team Ladyluck seems to certainly be a peace loving vegetarian....
    oh.my.god.

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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by SPLUT View Post
    So Arabs are Pakistani?

    Obviously you don't realize the extent of the problem.

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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyLuck View Post
    Thanks so much for respecting my no flame request. That's sarcasm in case you missed it.

    Please refrain from further flames of me (or anyone else) or I will ask the Mods to close this topic and then everyone interested in participating will know it is your fault it gets locked or deleted.


    In other words, play nice or don't play at all.
    In other words, don't bring up any actual facts about what is happening over there. If you actually show a movie about what is happening over there it is a "flame" and not a fact. Stick to LadyLuck says is the big bad US causing trouble.

    P.S. Members is not moderated.
    Last edited by Deogol; 06-13-2008 at 03:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Ernie View Post
    American citizens of Japanese descent were put in concentration camps on the west coast after Pearl Harbor. There is a difference between Nazi Death Camps and concentration camps.
    Nice game play with definitions.

    Seems to me they were called Japanese Internment Camps.

    When I look around the web and nazi history, the camps are referred to as concentration camps as well as death camps.

    Smells like a little bit of holocaust revisionism at work here.

    It is inappropriate to refer to Gitmo as a concentration camp unless you are looking to make propaganda.

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    In other words, don't bring up any actual facts about what is happening over there. If you actually show a movie about what is happening over there it is a "flame" not a fact. Stick to LadyLuck says is the big bad US causing trouble.

    P.S. Members is not moderated.
    Incorrect. It was a flame because he tried to make it out (with that childish Team LadyLuck comment) as if I personally support the kinds of actions in that link. That's what made it a flame. If he had just added the link it would have been a-ok.

    Also members IS moderated, at least according to posts I have read by Mods. It's just that as of now there is no specific Mod. But even if it wasn't there is this thing called reasonable debate which you two are not following.

    Besides all that, I specificaly requested posts of the nature that you and Tauris are making- ie flaming and or making it personal with me or anyone else, not be part of this topic. There is no justifiable reason for that request to not be respected.

    So for the THIRD and final time I am going to ask as nice as I can for people to stop or not post flames or make things personal. Please just stick to the OP subject matter.

    If this request continues to be ignored by the two of you (or anyone else ) I WILL request this discussion be locked. I doubt the Mods will have a problem with that request either since you guys are not honoring site rules about flames ect.

    Even of you can not find it within yourself to be respectful and honor my OP request, please don't ruin things for other members who are following or may wish to contribute something to the topic.

    Thanks
    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

    Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Woohoo! Another score for the US Constitution

    well it would appear that we now have our first major presidential campaign issue ! Actually two issues ... positions re this Supreme Court ruling and its implications on the future ability of the US military to 'provide for the common defense' in a modern world of terrorism, and positions re what sort of Supreme Court judges should be appointed over the course of the next 4 years.

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