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Thread: Suicidal Spending

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Suicidal Spending

    Great presentation here -->

    It is a site sponsored by Ross Perot and is very interesting. It doesn't matter who gets elected in November; they have to deal with this.

    Please note how the current bunch in the White House have not only went through a massive surplus but also created the well known deficit but at the same time have collected taxes at the fastest pace in 40 YEARS! So much for the motto of smaller government and lower taxes and claiming itís Dems who are the tax and spenders, LOL!

    Also please note that the best financial position our nation has been in in recent times occurred during the Clinton years. Add to that the amount of borrowed money did not skyrocket until the start of the NeoCon movement in the 1980ís.

    These charts clearly show that the US government has been in itís healthiest financial situation when liberals have been running the show. An interesting point of fact is that the general economy in recent times was also at itís best during the Clinton years.

    But as I wrote in my first it doesnít matter who gets elected in November; they have to deal with this. But the question for all us voters out here is just who will handle it better? The party who wants change ( Dems) or the one who wants to keep things at status quo (Repub)?

    Remember that the best indication of future behavior is the recent past behavior.

    Considering that in the last 25 years it has been the Dems have created a healthy financial US government and thus economy- it stands to reason that if we want a chance in hell of getting out of debt itís going to take repeated Dem ( or at least not Repub) administrations.


    Please do your part in helping our country get back on track and vote Democrat in November.
    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

    Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    In the interest of equal time, there are lies, there are damn lies, and there are statistics. However, to try and maintain a healthy perspective, let me first state that GWB's social spending policies (most notably a new social welfare program for prescription drugs to senior citizens) would have made FDR and LBJ proud ... while causing libertarians and fiscal conservatives to suspect that GWB is a closet Democrat ! And 1/2 of the Republicans in Washington DC are no better when it comes to voting for irresponsible gov't spending policies. With that said ...

    ... a claim that taxes are being collected at the fastest pace in 40 years is about the same as claiming that we are now spending money on gasoline at the fastest pace in 40 years. Because the 'purchasing power' of the US dollar is far from being a constant, attempting to measure anything denominated in US dollars over a long period of time can be misleading. For example, an implied but incorrect conclusion would be that GWB has raised tax rates, or that GWB is collecting more taxes as a percentage of GDP, or re my analogy that Americans are buying many more gallons of gasoline today than they were a few years ago. In fact GWB has lowered tax rates, federal tax revenues as a percentage of GDP are slightly down, and Americans are buying fewer gallons of gasoline today (but are required to pay far more dollars for those fewer number of gallons) than a few years ago.

    ... a claim that the US gov't has been in the healthiest financial situations under liberal majorities is NOT the same thing as the US economy having been the healthiest under liberal majorities. Via high taxation, it's easy for liberals to improve the health of gov't balance sheets ... but at the expense of corporate balance sheets and 'middle class' family balance sheets. I exclude 'low income' family balance sheets since in truth 'low income' Americans pay virtually no income taxes thus an increase or decrease in tax rates means far less to them than an increase or decrease in social welfare benefits / tax credits. I also exclude 'high income' family balance sheets since they can typically take advantage of tax favored investments / tax exempt investments / other loopholes to mitigate the effects of 'official' increases in income tax rates.

    As to your commments that the Clinton Years were the best time for the national economy, I would agree with that. However, you did not state the two major underlying reasons for this ... that Clinton was forced to cut taxes (and in particular forced to cut capital gains taxes) by the republican majorities in the US house and senate, ... and that Clinton chose to vastly reduce gov't spending on national defense, from intelligence to military hardware R&D to total US active duty troop levels (which arguably was counterbalanced by multitrillion dollar losses to the US economy when Clinton's weak defense policy culminated in the 9/11 attacks).

    I'm not taking an adversarial position in regards to Republican vs Democratic candidates / policies in the upcoming election. To be perfectly blunt IMHO they both will be bad for America's economy. However, you (and Ross Perot) don't need to 'reach' quite so far in regard to statistical interpretations.

    This will probably make your day ... but after analyzing the two choices which will be offered, I've almost come to the conclusion that a vote for Obama will be better for the country / economy in the long run. Surprised ? Well. don't be. The logic behind that decision is that by electing Obama, and by giving liberal democrat taxation and social spending policies four years of free rein, the condition of the US economy and typical family budgets in 2012 will be SO BAD that, like 1980's Carter vs Reagan presidential election, voters will throw out not only Obama but also the democratic congressional majorities that made his 'changes' possible ! For sure some pundit will resurrect the Carter years 'misery index' to drive the point home in 2012.

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    Being that it has zip to do with my thread topic, I am going to put aside your absurdly ridiculous blaming of 9/11 as being the sole fault of Bill Clinton. Especially since when his administration left office they warned Bush that it could happen and Bush made the CHOICE to ignore it.

    And to be a little less adversarial myself, I am just going to say this- For whatever your reasons, if you plan to vote against the Republicans this year then color me happier than a kid opening their Christmas presents.

    You may be doing it for all the wrong reasons, but every vote that goes against the status quo of Republican policies results in a positive action that can begin to move our country toward a better tomorrow.

    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

    Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    ^^^ also allow me to add that the projections at Ross Perot's website do seem to bear out a fear of mine ... that Obama's proposal to break the linkage between social security taxes paid in versus social security benefits paid out, i.e. continuing to levee Social Security tax on high income individuals as a percentage of their total 'wage' incomes, without any matching future increase in their eventual Social Security benefit checks, thus will reduce today's implied gov't administered retirement system to just another tax and just another social welfare benefit program where taxes collected and benefits paid out bear no relationship to each other.

    Once this happens (and it probably will happen if Obama is elected), it will be a simple matter to go one step farther ... i.e. that people who have scrimped and saved to set aside large amounts of money into their 401k's / IRA's etc. will be told by the gov't that since they have the 'means' to pay their own retirement expenses that they no longer need to receive a Social Security check when they retire. After all, with FDR's original 'gov't administered retirement program' idea thrown overboard, the payout of social security checks needn't be any different than the payout of any other social welfare benefit - i.e. limited to those who 'need' gov't help because they don't have the income or the assets to provide for themselves. Like most liberal social welfare programs, an unlimited ceiling on the collection of Social Security taxes, and a 'means tested' eligibility requirement for social security benefits, will be chock full of Moral Hazard i.e. rewarding those who spend and depend on gov't, and penalizing those who save and take responsibility for their own future.

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    Ah ha! I knew there would be at least something in that presentation you would get into I did however figure correctly that it would the be lessening of help for the poor and elderly.
    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

    Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    ^^^ incorrect assumption. Obama's plan would arguably increase gov't help for the poor and elderly poor ... at the expense of the 'middle class' and especially at the expense of the elderly 'middle class' who have scrimped and saved to build up a substantial individual retirement account or 401k over the past 3-4 decades. Because the elderly 'middle class' saved their money instead of spending it, they are likely to receive very little in the way of Social Security payouts in the future. On the other hand, people who chose to spend their money rather than socking it away in IRA / 401k accounts WILL receive Social Security checks. From a government policy standpoint, this is quite similar to the 'subprime mortgage bailout plan' recently passed by Democrats ... which penalizes homeowners who stayed within their means, and rewards homeowners who attempted to purchase way more house than they could actually afford. In general terms, this sort of Democratic policy creates massive amounts of Moral Hazard ...

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    I call BS that Obama is out to hurt the middle class. Why would he plan to do that? Sounds like a bunch of neocon fear mongering to me.
    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

    Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    This will probably make your day ... but after analyzing the two choices which will be offered, I've almost come to the conclusion that a vote for Obama will be better for the country / economy in the long run. Surprised ? Well. don't be. The logic behind that decision is that by electing Obama, and by giving liberal democrat taxation and social spending policies four years of free rein, the condition of the US economy and typical family budgets in 2012 will be SO BAD that, like 1980's Carter vs Reagan presidential election, voters will throw out not only Obama but also the democratic congressional majorities that made his 'changes' possible ! For sure some pundit will resurrect the Carter years 'misery index' to drive the point home in 2012.
    You'd really vote for somebody with the hopes that they fail miserably? Sorry, but that seems a bit messed up. Not that I'm opposed to a vote for Obama, I just question the reasoning. What happens if things don't turn out so miserably? Would that actually bother you?

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    Please don't assume that all Republicans are in favor of the status quo. I'm a registered Republican and I'm deeply concerned about the direction that both the country and the party are taking. I'm absolutely positive that Obama is NOT the solution, but like Melonie I MIGHT vote for him just to send a message to the Republican Party leadership. More likely, I'll vote for Bob Barr (the Libertarian candidate) to make a point, though there's a lot about him I REALLY don't like.

    I'd like to see the Republicans lose a couple of elections until they learn to listen to their constituency, but I'd also like to see the Democrats lose until they learn to listen to theirs. The Republican leadership isn't listening to me, but the Democrat leadership isn't listening to you either. We all need to vote third party until there's a discernible difference between the two. Right now they only differ on the basis of rhetoric; the end result of both parties is the same.

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    You'd really vote for somebody with the hopes that they fail miserably? Sorry, but that seems a bit messed up. Not that I'm opposed to a vote for Obama, I just question the reasoning. What happens if things don't turn out so miserably? Would that actually bother you?
    I have no fear that the economic condition of average Americans in 2012 will be much worse than they are today. It will be quite a bit worse with John McCain in the 'driver's seat', primarily because no matter what McCain attempts to do the democratic majorities in both houses of congress will block any initiatives they don't like and introduce alternatives of their own ... some of which will pass over McCain's objections. This would essentially be an extension of the situation which has existed since the 2006 elections. And just like the past 2 years, if a Republican is in the white house he will share blame / be blamed for the results and unintended consequences of the democratic congressional initiatives.

    However, if the Democrats have a total majority i.e. Obama in the white house plus majorities in both houses of congress, then there will be no possible way for the democratic party to muddy the issue in the 2012 election ... Democratic policies will get their chance (again), and after 4 years the unintendended consequences will pile up to the point where the American voter will finally connect the dots as they did in 1980.

    Personally speaking, I agree with you in regard to no plausible candidate being presented that could actually solve some of America's current problems without creating even worse problems. But again, if anybody except a democrat winds up in the white house, the role of the democratic congressional majorities will wind up being obscured by 'muddy water' when the 2012 election finally rolls around. Also, personally speaking, I would be overjoyed if Democratic policies get a 'free hand' for four years. The worst result from a personal standpoint is that I become an expatriate sooner than I had otherwise planned.


    I call BS that Obama is out to hurt the middle class. Why would he plan to do that? Sounds like a bunch of neocon fear mongering to me.
    logically speaking, you can't 'give' more to (poor) people who don't pay taxes without 'taking' more from (middle class) people who do pay taxes. Obama will of course call for large tax increases on the rich for this purpose, but as always the rich will take advantage of tax free investments / tax credits / offshore money transfers etc. in order to avoid actually having to pay taxes at a level anywhere near the 'official' tax rates. This will leave Obama in a position of either not being able to deliver on his promises re increasing social welfare benefits to the poor (i.e. national health care for starters), or making up for the tax revenue shortfall resulting from the rich taking evasive action by raising taxes on the middle class (who are not at all in the same position to take evasive action).

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    ^^^ this is the catch to taxation. actually-rich people will hide their money, same as corporations will mysteriously have six dollars of profit for the year. but people making 50k apiece (certainly doing very well in terms of % of population, but not rich) can't hide their money from higher tax rates.

    and if you define poor too broadly (like, oh, i don't know, anyone making under 50k/yr), you then have a problem-- you can't print your way out of it, either.

    obama is between a rock and a hard place if he gets elected-- the dollar is being propped up, but that won't last, and people all want the government to give out free healthcare, free job training, lower taxes, and free college.

    other countries have very strict entrance requirements for that 'free college', plus college is harder, since who cares if you fail out, it was free. (this was true at my old alma mater, which was free until the 60s).

    additionally, all the countries that do give out healthcare are small in population compared to the US and most are resource rich as well. easy-peasy to split the pie among fewer bodies.

    america is just too big, and we can't imitate smaller, richer countries in terms of socialist/progressive policies, even though many democrats feel that is the direction we should go. we just don't have the money or ability to make the money for all that stuff.

    america's gonna be a banana republic soon, without even the bananas, and it will be the fault of both democrats and republicans.

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    Some points :

    Clinton had very little to do with the booming economy of the 90's. He co-opted what the 94 Congress proposed ( remember the Contract with America ?). Clinton outmaneuvered the GOP and took credit for their plans.

    Times were good in that decade because of the dotcom boom.

    The Clinton administration bears most of the responsibility for 9/11. Do you think Al Qaeda just dreamed that up after he left office? They flourished throughout his years in office because he was too busy with other things ( like getting his dick sucked, groping anything with tits, and lying under oath) to live up to his Oath of Office to defend this country. US forces had UBL in their sights in the mid-90's and he wussed out, just like he never backed up any of his ultimatums with force when anyone paid him no mind. Oh that's right, he did fire a few missiles and destroy a drug factory to divert attention the weekend the Lewinsky report was released.

    Spending is way out of control, Bush shows far too little restraint. I fear McCain will not be much better, if at all. Obama though is off-the-charts bad news for the country. he is dead wrong on every single issue. I cannot think of a single issue he is correct on. He is a Marxist, weak on national security, and not very bright. He's also probably a racist. The reason any conservative would think of voting for him ( and trust me, I'm wrestling with this dilemma right now) is that he will be such a disaster along with Pelosi and Reid that the nation will turn hard right in reaction to the damage they do. The fear is McCain will also do great damage which will be blamed on Republicans.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

    If you're in your twenties and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're in you're forties and aren't a conservative, you have no brain - Winston Churchill

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    Wow Mia, that was quite a sum up and I think you are really on track with a lot of it, well said.

    Our economy will self correct, and it won't be the doing of Politicians. People seem to think that American Presidents wave a magic wand and the economy improves or hurts. That's just not true. Clinton didn't make the economy strong, he rode the wave. Let's point out that he passed on going after Bin Laden. The rest of the comments about Bush are more crap spewed from the uneducated mass of Bush haters (which is all LL is).

    Look at the housing crisis, maybe politicians fucked everything up, but if people hadn't been buying more hose than they could afford in the first place, there would never have been a problem.

    And Bem, awesome sum up.

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    I think it's funny in a sad sort of way how the boards neocons refuse to give Clinton ANY credit at all for the good times the country enjoyed in the 90's. Especially considering the surplus his administration created as compared to the deficit that the Repub admins created both before and afterward.

    And then many of those same posters dare to put 100% blame of 9/11 on Clinton's shoulders.

    Absurd doesn't even cover it. Particularly the second part.

    But please let's not go too far off topic here by getting into the various 9/11 conspiracy theories. If you guys want to do that discussion this is not the place, a new topic is order for that subject.
    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    Clinton had very little to do with the booming economy of the 90's.
    Have you every heard the term scoreboard? I think it's rather fitting here when we look at the numbers and compare Clinton to Bush (either GHB or GWB). Give the man some credit.

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    US forces had UBL in their sights in the mid-90's and he wussed out, just like he never backed up any of his ultimatums with force when anyone paid him no mind.
    I think there's enough blame to go around here, Bush didn't respond to the USS Cole attack, he didn't heed Clinton's warning about al-Qaeda when he took office, he went into Iraq when he should have been focusing on Afghanistan, that hardly makes him a role model in the fight against terror.

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    He is a Marxist, weak on national security, and not very bright. He's also probably a racist.
    Wow, I'm just at a loss for words here. The only thing dumber I've read recently was this:
    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    And Bem, awesome sum up.

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    aw, i totally thought this would be a thread on how people spend money when they are depressed or lonesome or just plain bored and unconcerned with the future.

    but national economics is good too.

    It can be difficult to make a recently single man pay for sex when he knows that a quick trip to the local watering hole would secure at least one hard drunken tumble for far less cash. It is even more difficult when he is something of a dead ringer for James Bond as played by Daniel Craig and possesses the sort of awkard charm and confidence that brands a man like him as a lady killer.

    - Daisy Loveless, Serving Lunch Weblog

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    I think it's funny in a sad sort of way how the boards neocons refuse to give Clinton ANY credit at all for the good times the country enjoyed in the 90's. Especially considering the surplus his administration created as compared to the deficit that the Repub admins created both before and afterward.
    Again this point circles back to the difference between a president who has the support of majorities of the same political party in both houses of congress, versus a president who faces majorities of the opposing party in both houses of congress. Yes Clinton was in the white house when the 'Contract with America' resulted in a republican majority being voted into both houses of congress (well close to a majority in the Senate) during the 1994 elections. Yes those republicans passed tax cuts, welfare reform, tort reform, shrinking the size of gov't, budget balancing measures, etc. that were a major departure from policies that Clinton advocated prior to the 1994 election. And yes the US economy enjoyed a few years of very good performance as a result.

    Similarly GWB was in the white house when Democrats were voted a majority of both houses of congress in 2006. Yes those democrats passed increased ethanol mandates, increased farm subsidies, increased minimum wage, gov't bailouts etc. that were a major departure from policies that GWB advocated prior to the 2006 election. And yes the US economy quickly went downhill.

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    other countries have very strict entrance requirements for that 'free college', plus college is harder, since who cares if you fail out, it was free. (this was true at my old alma mater, which was free until the 60s).

    additionally, all the countries that do give out healthcare are small in population compared to the US and most are resource rich as well. easy-peasy to split the pie among fewer bodies.
    I would also point out that all of the Western European countries that have 'generous' social welfare benefits, national health care etc. now have MAJOR budget problems - which can be directly traced to the rapid population growth of low skill immigrants who consume far more Euros worth of benefits than they contribute in taxes. As a result, many Western European countries have both tightened up their requirements for legal residency, and have intensified their efforts to deport as many low skill immigrants as possible (along with their entire family in some cases).

    The simple fact is that somebody must pay for social welfare benefits and national health care. When a country's population is 90% productive, that 90% can afford to 'provide for' the non-productive 10% without a whole lot of disturbance. However, when the non-productive percentage of the population reaches 20% or 30%, the increasing burden falling on the remaining productive 80% or 70% begins to cause a great deal of disturbance ... along with causing evasive measures (like the productive residents moving themselves and/or their money elsewhere to avoid having 40-50-60% of their earnings taken from them).

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyLuck View Post
    I think it's funny in a sad sort of way how the boards neocons refuse to give Clinton ANY credit at all for the good times the country enjoyed in the 90's. Especially considering the surplus his administration created as compared to the deficit that the Repub admins created both before and afterward.

    And then many of those same posters dare to put 100% blame of 9/11 on Clinton's shoulders.

    Absurd doesn't even cover it. Particularly the second part.

    But please let's not go too far off topic here by getting into the various 9/11 conspiracy theories. If you guys want to do that discussion this is not the place, a new topic is order for that subject.
    Melonie's summation was on point. I couldn't reply any better. The fact of the matter is Presidents get too much credit for the good stuff and too much blame for the bad stuff.

    I never said Clinton deserved 100% of the blame, but his administration deserves the majority of the blame. That attack was years in the planning - the 9/11 terrorists were here for years training and planning for that event. Clinton's aversion to responding strongly to events throughout all his two terms emboldened our enemies to the point of considering us as not having the stomach to fight back.

    The thing I find really absurd is how women can rally to Bubba's support. The fact it is happening here on a strip club site is dumfounding. The girls here make no secret about what scumbags the guys can be in clubs and here is a guy who behaves like that outside the club and women still defend him. Exposing himself to underlings and demanding to be serviced? Groping a grieving woman? Getting a hummer from an intern on the job? Supposedly committing rape years ago? And then the topper, when it all comes to light, he and his minions lie about it and trash the accuser in front of the world. Its not too hard to draw parallels between what he does and behavior that gets you banned from a club, yet he still gets support. Ane we haven't even gotten to the other stuff about him : questionable business dealings, questionable pardons, questionable political donations, smoking weed and the trying to weasel out of it, etc etc etc.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Head View Post
    Have you every heard the term scoreboard? I think it's rather fitting here when we look at the numbers and compare Clinton to Bush (either GHB or GWB). Give the man some credit.

    I think there's enough blame to go around here, Bush didn't respond to the USS Cole attack, he didn't heed Clinton's warning about al-Qaeda when he took office, he went into Iraq when he should have been focusing on Afghanistan, that hardly makes him a role model in the fight against terror.

    Wow, I'm just at a loss for words here. The only thing dumber I've read recently was this:
    He gets credit for being a brilliant politician and being able to manipulate the system to consolidate his popularity. The only one in a league with him is Obama. I look at him and think " what the fuck are people thinking?" This guy doesn't belong in Congress, let alone the White House.

    You didn't like my assertions that he is Marxist, weak on security, not too bright ( his position changes day to day and he is weak without a teleprompter ) and I suspect he is racist ( "white man's greed runs a world in need". The reason I suspect you are at a loss for words is that it is pretty clear these things are true, or at least troubling.

    One more thing, the USS Cole was attacked October 12, 2000. Bush hadn't even been elected president at that point. Actually, he wasn't declared the winner till around Christmas, if memory serves me correctly. Why didn't Clinton respond? Oh that's right, he and his wife were selling pardons and stealing furniture.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    You didn't like my assertions that he is Marxist, weak on security, not too bright ( his position changes day to day and he is weak without a teleprompter ) and I suspect he is racist ( "white man's greed runs a world in need". The reason I suspect you are at a loss for words is that it is pretty clear these things are true, or at least troubling.
    No, I'm at a loss for words because I can't believe how easily manipulated you are by the far right media. Do you even know what a Marxist is? He's got a degree from Columbia University and law degree from Harvard, hardly diploma mills, how would somebody who's not too bright graduate from those schools? Racist? You know he's half white don't you? Or that he was raised by a white mother?

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    One more thing, the USS Cole was attacked October 12, 2000. Bush hadn't even been elected president at that point. Actually, he wasn't declared the winner till around Christmas, if memory serves me correctly. Why didn't Clinton respond? Oh that's right, he and his wife were selling pardons and stealing furniture.
    Perhaps you should do some reading on the USS Cole attack, we didn't know for sure who was responsible for the attack until Jan 01, that makes it GWB's responsibility doesn't it? I particularly like this quote from the link above "According to Dr. Rice, the decision not to respond militarily to the Cole bombing was President Bush's" (Dr Rice being Condozleeza). But by all means go ahead and keep spinning your distorted view of history if that makes you feel better.

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    Sigh. I'm dropping this for awhile I think because for one Richard is doing a damn good job at rebuttal and two because the absurd nature of some of the Neocon replies (especially regarding 9/11) make my head hurt and three because things are drifting off topic.
    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

    Benjamin Franklin

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Head View Post
    No, I'm at a loss for words because I can't believe how easily manipulated you are by the far right media. Do you even know what a Marxist is? He's got a degree from Columbia University and law degree from Harvard, hardly diploma mills, how would somebody who's not too bright graduate from those schools? Racist? You know he's half white don't you? Or that he was raised by a white mother?
    I have a degree from an Ivy League school myself. Trust me, they're not filled to the brim with rocket scientists. What they are filled to the brim with ( at least on the undergrad side ) is lots of left-wing radicals. Columbia might be the worst. Students at my alma mater wanted to distribute cyanide pills to the student body as a statement about on nuclear proliferation. I believe Jimmy Carter's daughter was one of the ringleaders of that little attention-grabber ( before they expelled her ) . The most difficult thing about any of these places is getting in and three beneficial areas they look at in determining admission are athletics, legacies ($$$), and minorities. Those 3 get special consideration. i don't know if any of this applies to BHO but I knew alot of "not-too-bright" athletes, legacies and minorities in my college days. Sometimes, I'm not too bright myself.

    As far as his being racist is concerned, he belongs to a black separatist church and look at his associates. I doubt the majority of klansmen actually physically harm the people they hate, but they attend the meetings and listen to the rhetoric. Does that mean they're not racist? If McCain ( or any Republican for that matter ) attended white supremacist meetings, but never said a word and never actually harmed a minority, I'd still consider him a racist. If one had David Duke among his advisors, I'd consider him unfit for office. Why don't the same standards apply here?

    Oh, and you didn't address the Marxist and weak on security issues.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

    If you're in your twenties and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're in you're forties and aren't a conservative, you have no brain - Winston Churchill

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    agreed on off topic drift. The supposed topic of this thread (at least to me) was that there is a huge and growing gap between gov't spending levels and gov't tax revenues. On the political front, Obama is advocating gov't spending at even higher levels for solar / wind / ethanol subsidies, introducing a new social welfare benefit program (national health care), adding 100,000 new federal civil service jobs as part of a carbon 'cap and trade' system, and is also advocating MASSIVE tax increases in order to pay for them (via allowing the GWB tax cuts to expire, by increasing the SSI payroll tax ceiling, by increasing capital gains tax rates etc). The 'tin foil hat' crowd would argue that Obama is thus advocating the worst of both worlds.

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    Default Re: Suicidal Spending

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    Why don't the same standards apply here?

    The self portrait in Mr. Head's avatar should give a clue...I would imagine breathing large amounts of methane gas could easily explain "Dick's" lack of functioning brain cells and rabid hallucinations.

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