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Thread: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

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    Default lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    (snip)Tuesday, June 17, 2008

    Most voters favor the resumption of offshore drilling in the United States and expect it to lower prices at the pump, even as John McCain has announced his support for states that want to explore for oil and gas off their coasts.

    A new Rasmussen Reports telephone survey—conducted before McCain announced his intentions on the issue--finds that 67% of voters believe that drilling should be allowed off the coasts of California, Florida and other states. Only 18% disagree and 15% are undecided. Conservative and moderate voters strongly support this approach, while liberals are more evenly divided (46% of liberals favor drilling, 37% oppose).

    Sixty-four percent (64%) of voters believe it is at least somewhat likely that gas prices will go down if offshore oil drilling is allowed, although 27% don’t believe it. Seventy-eight percent (78%) of conservatives say offshore drilling is at least somewhat likely to drive prices down. That view is shared by 57% of moderates and 50% of liberal voters.

    Nearly all voters are worried about rising gas and energy prices, with 79% very concerned and 16% somewhat concerned.

    McCain is expected to formally call today (Tuesday) for the lifting of the federal moratorium on states being allowed to explore off their coasts for oil and gas deposits. While acknowledging it is only a short-term response, he has described it as a good first step toward reducing U.S. energy dependence on overseas sources.

    The Outer Continental Shelf moratorium, passed in 1981, bans exploration for offshore natural gas and oil deposits. Barack Obama, McCain’s opponent for the White House, voted against an effort to lift the ban last year in the Senate. He argued that it was only a short-term solution. National Democratic Party leaders and most environmental organizations for years have strongly opposed efforts to explore for oil off the coast of the U.S.

    According to the new survey, 85% of Republicans are in favor of offshore drilling as opposed to 57% of Democrats and 60% of unaffiliated voters. Those who call themselves conservatives favor such drilling 84% to 46% of liberals and 59% of self-designated moderates.

    African-American voters are less supportive of such drilling than whites – 58% to 71%.

    Women are more skeptical than men about the impact such drilling will have on gas prices: Nearly one out of three male voters (32%) say prices are very likely to go down, a view shared by only 23% of women.

    Four out of five Republicans (79%) think prices are likely to fall thanks to offshore drilling, a view shared by only 55% of Democrats. Sixty percent (60%) of unaffiliated voters expect it to happen. "(snip)

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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    of course this would let a 'big secret' out of the bag ...

    (snip)"The Energy Policy Research Foundation concludes that aggressive new drilling and development of our oil shale reserves and withdrawing 200 million from the 700 million barrels of oil in our Strategic Petroleum Reserve could cut costs 37 cents a gallon in a relatively short time. And that doesn't take into consideration the price reductions that would result in the market when oil price controllers realize they don't have an oil monopoly over us.

    And if we are even more aggressive with drilling, we can drive down prices like a pile driver. More than 100 billion barrels of oil are available off the Pacific, Atlantic and Gulf coasts and under Alaska, and that's not counting the oil shale reserves across the Midwest that rival the reservoirs of the Middle East. They alone could satisfy America's need for gas for 13 years! But it's going to take those political pantywaists in Washington to get off their gas, get a little backbone against environmentalists (who now prevent 85 percent of drilling off our coasts), and pass an emergency resolution to drill here and drill now. Even President Bush consented before he left for Europe, saying domestic drilling will "give this country a chance to help us through this difficult period by finding more supplies of crude oil, which will take the pressure off the price of gasoline." "(snip)

    from

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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    of course, the underlying reasons for this new poll's results are obvious to most people ...

    (snip)"The other day in southwestern Fresno County, a poor part of Central California, I talked with a number of folks at a rural gas station. Most drove second- and third-hand pickups, large cast-off sedans or used SUVs. Their general complaint was twofold: They didn't have the cash to buy a new fuel-efficient Honda or Toyota. And they were now spending a day or two of their wages just to fuel their cars for their long rural commutes.

    But I also fill up three hours away on the San Francisco peninsula near Stanford University, where I work. High-priced hybrid cars and new more-efficient SUVs are everywhere. Mass transit is available and crammed. After listening to these quite different motorists, I can confirm an obvious rule about energy use: The wealthier and better educated seem less concerned about the price of gas.

    Indeed, from my informal conversations at two very different gas stations, I would go even further: The wealthy, particularly those who are politically liberal, also like that high-priced gas translates into less burning of fossil fuels by others and will help accelerate research into alternative energies.

    But what these elites don't seem to realize is that the energy policies they tend to advocate are for the present paralyzing almost everyone else in the country -- and that the truly ethical and environmental solution would require embracing positions long considered anathema to traditional liberalism.

    The debate in Congress over more refineries and nuclear power plants; drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and off our coasts; and developing oil shale, tar sands and liquid coal has been usually a predictable soap opera: Grasping Republicans supposedly wish to enrich energy companies, while idealistic Democrats want only to protect the environment. But those black-and-white positions, hatched in the good old days of $1.50-a-gallon gas, should now be revisited on the basis of far different moral considerations.

    One is fairness to the poor and middle class. Like it or not, radical environmentalism (and those behind it who provide the lobbying, funding and influence to block energy legislation) appeals to an elite not all that worried when gas prices rise or electricity rates go up -- since fossil energy use goes down.

    But a paradox is that most environmentalists think of themselves as egalitarians. So, instead of objecting to the view of a derrick from the California hills above the Santa Barbara coast, shouldn't a liberal estate owner instead console himself that the offshore pumping will help a nearby farm worker or carpenter get to work without going broke? "(snip)

    from !

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    Oh yeah, it's such a fab idea to further and maybe even PERMNANTLY destroy the environment and eco system for a mere 4 years worth of oil ( onshore) and 3 years worth (offshore) that we won't even see for nearly 10 years. Much better than say to reduce the use of oil by a variety of different options available and being developed.

    !!!!!!!!NOT!!!!!!!!!


    "In a report last week, the federal Bureau of Land Management stated that at current U.S. consumption levels there are four years worth of oil "



    "The federal Minerals Management Service said an additional three years worth of oil and gas is in offshore areas"
    Last edited by LadyLuck; 06-17-2008 at 08:24 PM.
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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    for starters, the 'official' government estimates of US oil and gas reserves arguably fall into the same category as 'official' unemployment figures and 'official' inflation figures for accuracy. Many other estimates place reserves at far higher levels. Of course, the true amount of oil available off the Florida coast will be proportional to the amount that the Cubans / Chinese are able to pump out before we do.

    Much better than say to reduce the use of oil by a variety of different options available and being developed.
    this actually circles right back on topic. Indeed there are a variety of different options available for most Americans to reduce their oil consumption. Here's a few that immediately come to mind ...

    - a new social welfare program that subsidizes the cost of high mileage imported cars (in addition to hybrids) so that 'poor' people can also get 30+ mpg.

    - expanding social welfare program / unemployment benefits such that more 'poor' people can quit working and thus stop buying gas to commute to work.

    - a new social welfare program providing subsidized urban housing to suburban residents, so that their commute to work is drastically shortened and the heating / air conditioning bills for their sprawling suburban homes are reduced in the same proportion as the floor space of their new urban apartment.

    obviously I'm being facetious, but the point remains that unlike yourself a large cross section of Americans are NOT willing to make large and fundamental changes in their lifestyle as a consequence of forced reductions in fossil fuel consumption (stemming from high prices for the moment at least - rationing will probably come later). That large cross section of Americans is NOT willing to give up their current standard of living / their current suburban lifestyle / the ability to save for retirement / the ability to save to send their children to college etc. as a result of skyrocketing energy prices (and taxes) sucking up every available dollar of their discretionary spending budget. Regardless of how you or other 'dedicated liberals' may feel about the issue, when election time comes around a whole lot of Americans are going to cast their votes based on their pocketbook. And this year's presidential election is certainly serving to point out the additional costs to their own budgets that directly stem from particular energy / environmental policies - for essentially the first time.

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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    the point remains that unlike yourself a large cross section of Americans are NOT willing to make large and fundamental changes in their lifestyle .
    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    That large cross section of Americans is NOT willing to give up their current standard of living / their current suburban lifestyle / the ability to save for retirement / the ability to save to send their children to college etc.
    The changes we’ve made in our household are fairly small. Most of it has been just substituting a greener option instead of the old fashioned thing or way of doing something. It’s quite easy really. Not to mention these changes have IMPROVED our lifestyle on so may levels. We are healthier, happier and are saving money too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Regardless of how you or other 'dedicated liberals' may feel about the issue, when election time comes around a whole lot of Americans are going to cast their votes based on their pocketbook. And this year's presidential election is certainly serving to point out the additional costs to their own budgets that directly stem from particular energy / environmental policies - for essentially the first time.
    Quite true. However based on mid term elections, many State and local elections they are voting more for what you describe as dedicated liberals. I predict this years Presidential election will mirror that trend as well.
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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    The changes we’ve made in our household are fairly small. Most of it has been just substituting a greener option instead of the old fashioned thing or way of doing something. It’s quite easy really. Not to mention these changes have IMPROVED our lifestyle on so may levels. We are healthier, happier and are saving money too.
    I'm glad that you and your family are able to make those sort of 'investments'. However this arguably makes you an 'elite minority' per my third link ...

    (snip)"I would go even further: The wealthy, particularly those who are politically liberal, also like that high-priced gas translates into less burning of fossil fuels by others and will help accelerate research into alternative energies. (snip)

    (snip) Like it or not, radical environmentalism (and those behind it who provide the lobbying, funding and influence to block energy legislation) appeals to an elite not all that worried when gas prices rise or electricity rates go up (snip)

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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    Ok here's what I don't get overall. Lets face it oil is going to be going away, its not a finite resource, I think we can all agree with that.

    I also think we can all agree that we don't want our money going to more corrupt governments that have large oil supplies.

    So while we need to ween ourselves off oil, why not become the leader in the world in alternative fuels? The investment in the us would be great, as well as that chance to sell this technology to other countries, thus alot of the $$ going to the middle-east would be funnelled away.

    I can understand the issue of drilling, really I do, but, even if we get to peak in 5 years, people want results now, not in five years. Its the equivalent of being in a 50 foot hole with no way out, so you continue to dig down to get out.....

    In reality, the cost for drilling, research and exploration for the oil companies has to come from someplace, so while its nice to think the gas can go down quickly, its highly unlikely as they will just pass the cost along to the consumer.

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    In reply to Melonie


    LMFAO! Oh so now I'm an elitist. That is the funniest sh*t I have read all day. To bad it's so unoriginal and right out of the Karl Rove playbook. You're not Rove in disguise are you? Just kidding ofcourse But seriously, you are so far off the base that you are not even in the ballpark with that comment.

    Since when is turning off lights when leaving the room, unplugging the blender when finished using it, making some homemade and natural cleaning products and other similar things make someone an elitist? Your accusation of my hubby and I being an 'elite minority' is just downright silly.


    Sorry but no matter how you or other Neocons attempt to spin it, being well informed and giving a damn does not an elitist make.

    In responce to G-Real,

    Spot on post.Thanks for joining the discussion.

    I just wanted to add that Bill Richardson (who was ofcourse a recent Sec. of Energy) just explained yesterday that even if we did do all the drilling that Bush wants it wouldn't have a positive effect on the price of gas for 30 YEARS!
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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    Since when is turning off lights when leaving the room, unplugging the blender when finished using it, making some homemade and natural cleaning products and other similar things make someone an elitist?
    It's not these attributes that make you an 'elite liberal' ... for the record I also do these things including making my own bar soap and growing / preserving much of my own food. What arguably makes you an 'elite liberal' is your ability to absorb the price increases at the gas pump / in your utility bills / in all energy intensive consumer products from groceries to hybrid cars / in rising state and local taxes etc. without feeling any real 'pain' in your lifestyle ... and your ambivalence towards 'poorer' people of all political pursuasions who do ( not to mention the 'poorer' people whose future employment is being put at risk due to similar price increases being borne by their US employers ).

    Circling back on topic, it is this latter group - who are experiencing some seriously stressful economic decision making now that weekly commuting to work costs them an entire day's pay, now that weekly groceries costs them another entire day's pay etc. - who are now the most likely to vote for ANY measures that promise to lower their energy related fuel / food costs and lower their taxes (or at least stop their taxes from increasing) in the short term. In other words, many people are finding that they can no longer afford to continue being 'politically correct' when the costs of doing so begin to threaten their current lifestyle and economic future.

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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    Sorry but there is not even a smidge of elitism about me. Either you don't understand the term or you are intentionally using a false description of me- kind of like how you recently tried to pretend that silly weatherman was a Dr. when he is not a Dr. at all.

    And you dare to say I have ambivalence towards 'poorer' people? Like the elitism label you just attempted to put incorrectly on my back, you couldn't be more wrong. But I think you know that already.

    You are resorting to a site acceptable form of name calling because you simply can not win this debate on any sort of measurable level.

    I mean seriously, are effn kidding me? Your trying to pretend I could care less about poor people is really quite something coming from you of all people.

    Do yourself a favor and don’t use those two little lies you’ve fabricated about me in your head today anymore and just stick to reasonable forms of debate.
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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyLuck View Post
    Do yourself a favor and don’t use those two little lies you’ve fabricated about me in your head today anymore and just stick to reasonable forms of debate.
    Did it ever occur to you that you might get treated a lil' better around here if you stopped insulting people and "ordering" them around?


    To Mel; I tried the stumbleupon.com website that somebody mentioned out in the lounge...and stumbled upon this;

    Seems there is yet another black mark on the environmental benefits of Ethanol/Bio-fuel...wonder what else that is supposedly green will turn out too good to be true?

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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    I mean seriously, are effn kidding me? Your trying to pretend I could care less about poor people is really quite something coming from you of all people.
    if this were really the case, then how can you continue to advocate energy policies that will put people's jobs at risk, that will make it impossible for people to save for their own retirement / for their children's education, that will force people to give up their current standard of living / suburban lifestyle in favor of a small urban apartment with access to mass transit ...

    Actually there's no point in arguing ... the answer to the question is very likely going to show itself in the results of the next election. That is, assuming that people are smart enough to connect a few dots in regard to their current financial situations and the factors that created their current financial situations. That's not something that can be taken for granted though, since a large segment of mainstream media seems to go out of their way to try and cast the 'blame' in other directions.


    Seems there is yet another black mark on the environmental benefits of Ethanol/Bio-fuel...wonder what else that is supposedly green will turn out too good to be true?
    these days it's only politically correct to pay attention to carbon being extracted from the depths of the earth and released into the biosphere. Vastly increased release nitrogen / phosporus / potassium i.e. the fertilizers that are absolutely vital to all of the biofuel schemes apparently don't matter ... nor does actual accounting for the increased CO2 emissions necessary for the production of fertilizer, for farming, for biofuel distillation / refining etc.
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-19-2008 at 11:38 PM.

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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tauries View Post
    Did it ever occur to you that you might get treated a lil' better around here if you stopped insulting people and "ordering" them
    That is some seriously hilarious stuff from you the guy who calls people who oppose torture terrorist lovers but LOL.. whatever!

    And actually with this one exception by Mel (and ofcourse you, but then again you flame plenty of people besides just me so) I get treated just fine around here. I probably don't need to point this out there are far more opinions being expressed that are in line with mine than not.

    I think Mel just got frustrated and let it get the best of her. It happens to the best of us sometimes. I'm sure she will return to true debate form soon enough. You on the other hand, none of us are holding our breathes I'm sure. In fact, some of us are taking bets on when you are going to get yourself banned
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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    if this were really the case, then how can you continue to advocate energy policies that will put people's jobs at risk, that will make it impossible for people to save for their own retirement / for their children's education, that will force people to give up their current standard of living.
    What I am advocating does nothing of the sort. What you advocate - ie status quo- is what will and already is resulting in those events. I guess by your standard that makes you the elitist now doesn't it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    if
    Actually there's no point in arguing ... the answer to the question is very likely going to show itself in the results of the next election. That is, assuming that people are smart enough to connect a few dots in regard to their current financial situations and the factors that created their current financial situations.
    True. And thankfully people are connecting the dots and have already started voting accordingly. They did it in the mid term elections as well as many recent State and local elections. They are voting AGAINST the status quo you advocate because it just doesn't cut it anymore. As I mentioned somewhere in one of these topics I predict that that trend will continue as well.

    People are voting with their wallets too which is why there are tons of new green businesses and products too.

    Sorry but you just can't wish it away, no matter how hard you try. People, places and things are going green, even if you don't like it.

    Your side has held progress up for almost 10 years now already. You've all had your chance to ravage the planet and make profits off it’s destruction for hundreds of years. However, the rest of the world has started to become more enlightened despite the best efforts of people who share your mindset. We are not standing for it anymore. The masses have figured out that ALL of our well being depends on NOT doing the very things you advocate.

    Gotta get some sleep now. I hope you enjoy the rest of your evening
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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    Off-shore drilling is a horrible idea. It's delaying the inevitable, and risking the environment, which is already imperiled, and so means risking our very survival. The health of the planet is not something separate from us -- we are part of it, from our food to our weather to all of our resources. The food chain, the eco system, our water, etc. If we fuck it up, we fuck ourselves, and then all the money in the world can't keep anyone alive.

    And the economic argument is total baloney -- there is sooo much money that is misspent in the government that could be put toward subsidizing a shift to better technology, or off-setting the price increases at the pump (though that's not my preference). The misspsent millions and billions are infuriating. God, look at the disgrace that is the farm bill, or any number of other pork projects that do the opposite of serve the public good.

    It's just irresponsible to frame the debate as "either ruin the environment OR screw the poor." There ARE alternative options.

    If you're concerned about killing a pretty evil industry and cutting jobs in said industry -- that is, oil -- consider once again that the gov't could subsidize the shift to a greener line of work -- that is alternatives. Win-win there. Obviously a good investment.

    Also, I want to note that as much as paying high gas prices sucks, it's actually a great thing because it also forces the country into being 'greener.' While many people support the idea of acting greener, most of us won't do it until it's actually in our best interest. That's what high gas prices do.

    Native Americans had this incredibly wise tradition of making decisions in terms of the outcome they'd have on the seventh generation from the present. Consider that litmus test, then see what you think the better option is here.
    Last edited by BrodieLux; 06-20-2008 at 12:57 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSeeker View Post
    ^Pssssttttt, your stripper is showing.

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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    If you're concerned about killing a pretty evil industry and cutting jobs in said industry -- that is, oil -- consider once again that the gov't could subsidize the shift to a greener line of work -- that is alternatives. Win-win there. Obviously a good investment.
    by definition, when the government takes money from one place and spends it to subsidize another place, there are winners and there are losers. The gov't does not create wealth out of thin air, as it must to actually create the win-win situation you imagine. Even if the gov't tries to create new money out of the blue, this is not the same as creating new wealth ... as today's rapidly rising price inflation and US dollar devaluation clearly illustrates.

    As to killing the US oil industry, keep in mind that the very same oil industry has been the source of reliable incomes for a host of public and private sector retirement funds, individual 401k's and IRA's etc. If that reliable income from the private sector becomes history, it must be made up for somehow ( by even higher taxes and even higher gov't payouts to retirees I suppose ?). Of course, in truth, it's impossible to kill big oil - but it IS possible to prompt US based oil companies to become non-US based oil companies, with associated loss of US jobs and US tax revenue but with no effect whatsoever on the amount of oil the US imports from the world market.


    Again trying to circle back on topic, no matter what individual members of this board think in regard to expanded oil drilling off the US coasts, in oil shale states etc., what matters will be what the majority of registered voters think. According to the new Rassmussen poll, since the price of gasoline has gone over $4 per gallon 67% of all voters surveyed, and 57% of Democratic voters surveyed, now support expanded oil drilling ! So even if there is no convincing certain members of this BBS that expanded oil drilling can ever be looked upon as a 'good' idea, that really doesn't matter because the majority of registered voters have already been convinced (by $4 oil and associated high electric / gas bills) that it IS a good idea.
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-20-2008 at 03:49 AM.

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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    Melonie,

    I think you must agree with me that the government does a shameful amount of wasteful spending. So when you say that funding, say, a switch to alternative energy requires taking money away from someone, consider that that may be a really good thing. Again, there's so much pork in the budget. We've all heard about stupid earmarks like multi-million dollar funding for random ass bridges, but the farm bill is my favorite example of corruption -- the subsidies all go to wealthy farmers instead of to small farmers, those for whom it is nearly impossible to earn a living wage. It helps those who don't need any help, widening the gap between the small, local, organic farmers and corporate agribusiness. This negatively impacts the public, as it keeps the healthiest, freshest food the least affordable.

    Consider further a counterargument to the claim that keeping gas prices high is an attack on the "poor": How many poor people do you know with cars?? Broke folks do not have cars because they cannot afford to pay for them and cannot afford the insurance on them. Those who find that negatively impacts their ability to earn money simply move to cities or to places with adequate public transportation.

    Consider also the costs off off-shore drilling: A spill would not only fuck up the very last pristine wilderness we have, it would also be tremendously expensive to clean up. And consider the impact on tourism. Imagine if those crystal-clear waters off the coast were ruined. It wouldn't be a short-term problem.

    If it comes down to a question of "what's worse, job loss or killing the planet?", the answer has to be job loss, because that's reversible. It's something government can actually do something about. You'd probably find this POV too "left", but we can actually absorb job loss if we want to. We can compensate for it, can subsidize the shift to alternative fuels, can provide a "safety net" of food stamps and health care and section 8 housing. But if we destroy the physical basis for civilization, there's nothing we can do but die.

    It seems to me that a shift is inevitable, and it's just a question of how quickly we must make the transition. The oil industry may just have to suck a dick.
    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSeeker View Post
    ^Pssssttttt, your stripper is showing.

  19. #19
    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    Melonie,

    I have a question for you. Just how long do you want this back and forth between you and I to go on? The reason I ask is because I am concerned that it seems that I am overly focused on you or something and honestly, I’m not. It’s just that we are both very interested in many of the same subjects, albeit from completely opposite points of view.

    However since I have realized that Tauries is downright targeting me for personal attack I am concerned that I might be mistaken for doing the same thing with you. I just wanted to say that is sooooo not my intent. I just enjoy a good heated debate.

    I guess what I am saying is that I don’t want you to feel under attack so anytime you just want to do the agree to disagree thing please just let me know.
    Last edited by LadyLuck; 06-20-2008 at 11:36 AM.
    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

    Benjamin Franklin

  20. #20
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    well we have always agreed to disagree. Basically, our exchanges mostly serve as food for thought for other BBS members, and an implied invitation for them to join the discussion.

    As to either of us actually convincing anybody to accept our point of view, arguably A. it really doesn't matter and B. I don't expect it to happen. As I have posted earlier, the ONLY thing that I expect will actually cause people to be more accepting of my point of view is 4 years worth of Barack Obama and Democratic congressional majorities that will enact his proposals. I harbored the same sentiments when gas was climbing towards $3 a gallon last year, and lo and behold at $4 a gallon a 'tipping point' in American public sentiment re oil and gas has suddenly arrived !

    But if we destroy the physical basis for civilization, there's nothing we can do but die.
    if this is true, then we are all dead no matter what we decide to do (or not do) in America.

    The reason for this is that the Chinese / Indians / Vietnamese etc. outnumber us 20:1, that they are pursuing environmental policies and fossil fuel energy policies that are absolute minimum cost driven - and in the process are creating several times as much pollution and CO2 emissions per unit of production as American companies were before they outsourced / relocated. Following 'responsible' environmental policies, we're clearly headed towards super high unemployment plus widespread bankruptcy plus just as much pollution as before being blown back to America from China / India / Vietnam as used to be generated by outsourced / relocated former American production facilities (in addition to the huge pile of pollution which remains behind in China / India / Vietnam.

    As unfortunate as the truth may be, no amount of 'cleanup' in America is going to counterbalance the 'dirtying up' taking place in China / India / Vietnam. And the enacting of ever more expensive and ever more stringent environmental regulations does NOT serve to lower total global emissions ... instead it provides yet more reason for remaining American companies to shut down production, which is promptly replaced with Chinese / Indian / Vietnamese production which generates far more emissions than the American facility that closed down !!!

    Where does the real answer lie ? Damned if I know ! Invade China and impose EPA equivalent regulations on all industry in that country ? Invade the entire world and impose EPA equivalent regulations in EVERY country ? Because, failing the ability to bring Chinese / Indian / Vietnamese pollution regulations to some sort of 'responsible' level, the main effect of tightening US regulations will only be to destroy American jobs and increase prices ... and produce much smaller American 'piles' of emissions while the Chinese / Vietnamese / Indians produce HUGE 'piles' of emissions in their place.

    The 'tin foil hat' crowd will tell you that the New World Order crowd is preparing to use pollution / emissions disparity as a lever to push for a Global Government ... which would supposedly have the authority to unilaterally impose equal emissions regulations throughout the world. The 'Nostradamus' crowd will tell you that any such attempt will precipitate the beginning of World War 3. Whatever eventually happens, short term unilateral US actions will have extremely little impact / value towards solving the real problem ... but they WILL have a major negative impact via the 'unintended consequences' i.e. sky high US unemployment, declining US standard of living due to US dollar devaluation, and a host of other indirect stuff.

    !
    Last edited by Melonie; 06-20-2008 at 04:29 PM.

  21. #21
    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    well we have always agreed to disagree. Basically, our exchanges mostly serve as food for thought for other BBS members, and an implied invitation for them to join the discussion.
    </p>
    Glad to hear you feel that way because that is the way I look at it too. I just know I can get intense on these subjects because I feel so strongly. I just wanted to do a check to make sure everything was kosher.
    There never was a good war or a bad peace.

    Benjamin Franklin

  22. #22
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    I just wanted to do a check to make sure everything was kosher
    was that a Freudian slip ? Just joking !

  23. #23
    God/dess FBR's Avatar
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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyLuck View Post
    </p>
    Glad to hear you feel that way because that is the way I look at it too. I just know I can get intense on these subjects because I feel so strongly. I just wanted to do a check to make sure everything was kosher.
    I enjoy the exchanges between you and Melonie. While I fall more in line with Mel than you, I appreciate your passion and once in a while you give me food for thought!

    FBR
    Once again I have embraced my addiction and have put off the moral dilemma to another day.

  24. #24
    Tauries
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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyLuck View Post
    I am concerned that I might be mistaken for doing the same thing with you.
    Glad to see you finally figured it out. Sometimes it is easier to see the folly in others than in ourselves...especially when they go out of their way to make that apparent. This "meanie" would like to take a vacation...so play nice and make some friends...there are some really cool people on this board. Thanx for flyin SW airlines and enjoy your stay .

  25. #25
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: lofty ideals go out the window when $4 gas causes pain ...

    ^^^ truthfully FBR, I think that one of the fundamental things which affects our thinking was the fact that we are both old enough to personally remember (barely) what the Carter years were like, and what the 'misery index' did to friends and family. Sure, we have all heard 'stories' about the great depression etc., but the vast majority of people who visit this BBS are too young to have personally experenced the S&L crisis or the Asian Contagion, let alone the Carter Years. Perhaps the only way to drive home the negative effects of unrestrained liberal 'tax and spend' policies is to actually pay the high taxes and experience the high inflation and high unemployment first-hand ?

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