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Thread: The truth about US corn ethanol versus imported sugar cane ethanol

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default The truth about US corn ethanol versus imported sugar cane ethanol

    ^^^ actually, I only support ethanol production based on tropical sugar cane based technology ... which returns something like 400% more energy than it consumes. Unfortunately, the only areas of America that can effectively grow sugar cane are Hawaii, parts of florida, and small parts of Louisiana and Texas. While tropical countries like Brazil have the capability of producing and exporting VAST quantities of comparatively low cost sugar cane based ethanol to the USA ( I believe the actual cost of delivered Brazilian sugar cane ethanol is less than US$2.00 versus a delivered cost of about $5.00 for US corn ethanol), the existance of US import quota laws currently limit the maximum amount of imported sugar cane ethanol to something like 7% of the amount of US produced corn ethanol. In truth Brazil could supply 100% of America's ethanol needs at less than half the cost, but of course that would eliminate the lucrative earnings of subsidized US corn farmers, would eliminate the subsidized profits of US ethanol refiners, and would eliminate the ethanol production tax credits which rich investors can now use to reduce the tax bill due on income earned from other investments / business ventures.

    I do NOT support US corn based ethanol technology on a scientific basis either ... because it returns only 150% of the input energy requirement if you're lucky, and because it owes it's illusion of financial viability to heavy subsidies collected both from taxpayers (via higher income taxes used to fund farm subsidies and ethanol production tax credits for investors) and from buyers of ethanol blend gasoline who must pay a 'stealth' ethanol tax of 56 cents per gallon of ethanol = 5.6 cents per gallon of blended gasoline (and which is then directly kicked back to US ethanol refiners to increase their de-facto profit margin).

    you added on after I said we agreed on more than not. Now not so much. Oh well, it was nice while it lasted

    I'm very curious as to why you are less supportive of ethanol when you found out I was talking about imported sugar cane based ethanol versus US corn based ethanol. After all, compared to US corn based ethanol, imported sugar cane based ethanol is, or could be ...

    - approximately 1/2 the wholesale price, since the farming, fermentation and distillation of sugar cane based ethanol require far less fossil fuel input costs (i.e. about 1/3rd as much fossil fuel energy per ethanol gallon produced) and far lower labor costs

    - less expensive still, since the cost of taxpayer funded US gov't subsidy programs to corn farmers would be greatly reduced

    - less expensive still, since the cost of taxpayer funded production tax credits to rich investors would be greatly reduced

    - the use of $2 imported ethanol instead of $4 US corn based ethanol in 10% blended gasoline would result in an immediate 20 cent per gallon price reduction at US pumps.

    - net worldwide consumption of fossil fuels would be reduced, since sugar cane ethanol requires far less fossil fuel energy input to produce the same number of gallons of ethanol

    - food prices, meat prices, dairy prices etc. would be reduced as a consequence, since the present high demand for corn would be reduced thus allowing much higher percentages of US corn production (and production of other food crops as well) to be funneled to the worldwide 'food' market versus the 'energy' market.

    - food prices, meat prices, dairy prices etc. would be reduced because a reduction in demand for prime US farm acreage to produce ethanol feedstock corn would allow for 'marginal' acreage currently being put back into agricultural production (which requires much higher usage of fossil fuel generated fertilizers, much higher use of chemical pesticides, much higher fossil fuel based cultivation, much more water per acre etc.) to be left fallow.

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    Veteran Member LadyLuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: The truth about US corn ethanol versus imported sugar cane ethanol

    For the record I support sugar based over corn. I just don't agree with you that corn should be ruled out completely, I think it needs to be further developed.

    I think it can be yet one more answer to the problem. Especially on a local level where the transportation issues do not come into play as much

    I just can't see fully scrapping something that shows both promise and problems. The best course of action is to make it work better and to work for whom ever it can and where ever it can in the most effective manner possibe.

    I also disagree with you about subsidies being given to further development and use of alternative fuels in general.

    But back to sugar, I'm thrilled at the progress having been made in Brazil and think we American's could and should use them as an example (tweaked ofcourse because our country/govt runs differently) but there must be plenty we can take from their research and development and implement it here.

    What you may have noticed is that my central point on energy sources is that NO ONE THING is going to work. That is how we got into the mess we are all in now. We need as many forms as possible and for boith enviromental and economic reasons.
    Last edited by LadyLuck; 06-23-2008 at 11:33 AM.
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    Default Re: The truth about US corn ethanol versus imported sugar cane ethanol

    Ethanol is a gigantic CROCK ! It takes MORE energy to produce it than it produces.
    Corn takes several times more energy than sugar cane to produce ethanol.. That is WHY it is subsidized and guess who are BIG Obama supporters ? In today's N.Y.Times a front page article details how large Corn-ethanol interests support Obama who in turn pledges to continue the current ruinous policy.

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    Default Re: The truth about US corn ethanol versus imported sugar cane ethanol

    ^^^ why else did you think that late night host David Letterman and many other 'rich liberals' have purchased hundreds of thousands of prime corn acres in the midwest ? A. they are guaranteed a profit thanks to subsidy checks from the US gov't as well as US gov't quotas keeping out lower priced international competition, and B. the resulting production tax credits can be used to significantly reduce the amount of taxes due on their other sources of income.

    In a future scenario of rapidly rising tax rates, these political donors are trying to lock in their tax credits and gov't subsidies 'in advance'.

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    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
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    Default Re: The truth about US corn ethanol versus imported sugar cane ethanol

    Slowly the tide is starting to turn against corn ethanol subsidies and mandates. Rick Perry, the governor of Texas has called for a suspension of ethanol mandates which are currently at 10.8 billion gallons a year i.e. that amount of ethanol MUST be added to gasoline every year. Citing the impact it has had on corn and other grain prices Perry has said that ethanol mandates are doing more economic harm than good.
    Another politician behind the S-web curve. Mel and I have been saying the same thing for MONTHS !

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    Default Re: The truth about US corn ethanol versus imported sugar cane ethanol

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Ethanol is a gigantic CROCK ! It takes MORE energy to produce it than it produces.
    Corn takes several times more energy than sugar cane to produce ethanol.. That is WHY it is subsidized and guess who are BIG Obama supporters ? In today's N.Y.Times a front page article details how large Corn-ethanol interests support Obama who in turn pledges to continue the current ruinous policy.
    You do know that ethanol can be produced at home, right? And it does not take more energy to produce than it returns if it is produced from non-edible sugar solids. It actually produces quite a bit of ethanol bang for the buck. I believe that the ratio is for every 1 energy unit used to produce sugar ethanol 8 energy units are gained. 1:8 is better than petroleum.

    Corn is more valuable in replacing other kinds of petroleum products like plastic shopping bags and diesel fuel. I don't think anyone is realistically looking at corn as a long term ethanol solution. It is merely pretty words to get folks elected, and a band aide approach to high gas prices in the short term.

    Stop watching Fox News and get yourself a subscription to Scientific American. Cable news is for entertainment purposes and cannot be used to reference facts.

    Sorry Eric, but you are actually going to have read something to really understand what is happening. Otherwise you are making yourself sound dumb.


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    Default Re: The truth about US corn ethanol versus imported sugar cane ethanol

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ why else did you think that late night host David Letterman and many other 'rich liberals' have purchased hundreds of thousands of prime corn acres in the midwest ? A. they are guaranteed a profit thanks to subsidy checks from the US gov't as well as US gov't quotas keeping out lower priced international competition, and B. the resulting production tax credits can be used to significantly reduce the amount of taxes due on their other sources of income.

    In a future scenario of rapidly rising tax rates, these political donors are trying to lock in their tax credits and gov't subsidies 'in advance'.
    I guess that is better than Cowboy starter kits in Texas. At least those corn farmers are actually growing something. Check out this little gem here.


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    Default Re: The truth about US corn ethanol versus imported sugar cane ethanol

    It takes more ethanol to go the same distance as gas. It won't save money.

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