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    Default this could swing the US presidential election ...


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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    oh geez....

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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    Yeah...and I'm not too happy with this crappy war that he got us in either.

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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    As if...thats all I'm going to say....as if..

    Quote Originally Posted by lexilou View Post
    "I'll picklepunch you in your twatwaffle!"

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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    High gas prices are all Obama's fault? That is the dumbest claim ever.

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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    ^^^ really ? The fact that gasoline isn't 18 cents per gallon less expensive right now ( and for the duration of the summer) can be directly laid at the feet of Obama ... as can the high probability that gasoline will be 10 cents per gallon more expensive on a permanent basis !



    (snip)"WASHINGTON (AP) _ The political vision of a summer gas tax holiday died a quick death in Congress, losing to a view that federal excise taxes on gasoline and diesel fuel will have to go up if they go anywhere.

    Despite calls from the presidential campaign trail for a Memorial Day-to-Labor Day tax freeze, lawmakers quickly concluded — with a prod from the construction industry — that having $9 billion less to spend on highways could create a pre-election specter of thousands of lost jobs.

    Now, lawmakers quietly are talking about raising fuel taxes by a dime from the current 18.4 cents a gallon on gasoline and 24.3 cents on diesel fuel.

    With gas prices setting records daily, Republican presidential hopeful John McCain and former Democratic candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton called for a 90-day suspension of the federal fuel tax to give drivers a little relief at the pump."(snip)

    "Some economists don't think much of my gas tax holiday," he said in a speech this month. "But the American people like it, and so do small business owners."

    Barack Obama, the likely Democratic nominee, opposed the idea from the beginning "(snip)

    .....

    (snip)"No "objective" story on gas-tax hikes would be complete without reminding Americans that their gas taxes are far below those progressive Europeans:

    Including state and local levies, people in the U.S. pay about 47 cents on average in taxes for a gallon of gasoline. Fuel in many European countries costs $8 to $9 a gallon, with half or more of that going to taxes.

    Other ideas that will be on the table when lawmakers write a bill next year including more toll roads and public-private partnerships, congestion pricing and user fees where drivers pay a tax based on how many miles they drive.


    Will other reporters follow up on how the Democrats are aiming not to give drivers some financial relief, but to drag more money out of their household budget?"(snip)

    from

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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    But isn't McCain the one who in 2000 said he wouldn't drill in ANWR?

    thats really more of a statement, because it is a fact.........

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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    Also, slightly off-topic.....the fact that mcCain has gone this negative, this early makes me think that other than "war" he doesn't have a plan in place.....

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    But isn't McCain the one who in 2000 said he wouldn't drill in ANWR?
    as far as I'm aware, McCain is still against drilling in the ANWR. However he has clearly come out in support of offshore drilling.


    Also, slightly off-topic.....the fact that mcCain has gone this negative, this early makes me think that other than "war" he doesn't have a plan in place.....
    arguably, it appears that McCain's campaign now has a pretty clear plan in place ... to drive home the point to millions of Americans that Obama and fellow Democrats want to increase their taxes AND their energy costs, at the very time when American household budgets are 'under siege' from many directions at once !


    also from my link ...

    "Other ideas that will be on the table when lawmakers write a bill next year including more toll roads and public-private partnerships, congestion pricing and user fees where drivers pay a tax based on how many miles they drive."

    ... is arguably a direct outgrowth of hybrid and alternative fuel vehicle subsidies, which Obama strongly supports - which have greatly increased the number of hybrid vehicles on American roads (at US taxpayer expense) but at the same time DECREASED road tax collections from hybrid and alternative fuel vehicle owners.

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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    I'd really like the explanation as to how raising costs and taking MORE money out of our pockets is supposed to help us in a recession.

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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    ^^^ well, that's precisely the question that the McCain campaign is attempting to get all registered voters to start asking - and also the reason that this issue could swing the US presidential election !!!

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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    So I take that as you don't agree with this notion either Mel?

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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    ^^^ which notions ???

    - the notion that the US increasing taxes on gasoline and diesel fuel to very high levels a la EuroLand is a 'good' thing for the US economy / society in the long term ... no

    - the notion that road use taxes or their equivalent (tolls, annual registration fees based on miles driven) should be used to end the de-facto tax subsidy / exemption for hybrid and alternative fuel vehicle owners - yes

    - the notion that US offshore drilling should remain prohibited - no

    - the notion that income taxes on the 'rich' should be increased - no in the real world, since the 'rich' will avoid actually paying the bulk of any such tax increase, with the bill then falling to the 'middle class' taxpayer instead.


    again circling back to the original point, with the future of Iraq now appearing to be a foregone conclusion (a la Iraqi president Maliki beginning to call for the withdrawl of most US troops), it would appear that middle eastern military policy won't be much of a campaign issue. History has shown that, in the absence of issues forcing US voters to decide re the lives of their 'sons and daughters', US voters typically decide elections based on their own pocketbooks. Thus it appears that the McCain campaign is now aiming directly at the 'pocketbook' issues of tax policy and energy policy, an area where (as you point out) Obama has a whole lot of explaining to do !

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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    Raising the price of costs of energy and increase taxes.

    I mean how does this help? We need to get a break somewhere. You can't get blood out of a stone.

    My thought is: if you keep increasing until it's unaffordable because the whole country is hurting, your customer base will go down. So while you got more money in the short term, you lost more in the long run with higher prices.

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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    if you keep increasing until it's unaffordable because the whole country is hurting, your customer base will go down. So while you got more money in the short term, you lost more in the long run with higher prices
    If you're referring to energy prices / taxes on energy increasing until it's unaffordable, the 'tin foil hat' crowd will tell you that the idea of forcing energy price increases to the point of altering the behavior of individuals and businesses alike is 'part and parcel' of a larger political vision ... which involves the death of suburbia, the re-expansion of huge cities, and much greater control by gov't over the daily activities of individuals and businesses ! One can look to the Canadian liberals, who are way ahead of Obama and the Democrats in the US on this issue ...



    (snip)"Liberal Leader Stéphane Dion began rolling out his politically risky carbon tax plan yesterday with a carrot-and-stick theme that he hopes will blunt Canadians' objections to higher fuel costs.

    At the heart of the wide-ranging environmental package are hard-to-sell tax increases that will drive up the cost of heating a home with natural gas, oil or electricity from coal-fired plants. The Liberals say their plan would not raise gasoline prices, which are already subject to a federal excise tax.

    Details of the plan will not be out for several weeks, but the proposed measures could increase Ottawa's tax take by an estimated $12 billion a year, according to economists.

    But the Liberals are promising to transfer every penny raised by higher energy taxes back to individual and corporate taxpayers in the form of income tax reductions, incentives for conservation and support for low-income earners.

    It's a plan "that's good for your wallet and good for the planet," Dion told a lunchtime business audience in Toronto.

    "We must create competitive advantages by lowering taxes on things we want more of – income, (business) innovation, savings and investment.

    "And we must shift those taxes towards the things we want less of – pollution, greenhouse gas emissions, smog and waste," he explained. "And, in doing so, we will be able to help the middle class and lift many Canadians out of poverty so they can offer all of their talents and skills to the nation."

    Liberals MPs say one of their chief concerns is the bruising impact that higher energy taxes would have on the pocketbooks of middle-class and low-income Canadians already grappling with skyrocketing gas prices.

    To soften the blow, Dion's plan envisages the creation of a more progressive tax system, with reduced income taxes to balance increased energy charges for those at the low end of the income scale and more support for those whose income is too small to be taxable.

    That can be done through the greater use of refundable tax credits, which result in a payout to taxpayers whose incomes fall below a certain threshold, Liberals say."(snip)

    ... of course the collection of higher taxes is almost always accompanied by the selective redistribution of tax revenues, which in this case boils down to the rich becoming richer via tax favored investments in gov't subsidized alternative energy industries, 'poor' people becoming more reliant than ever on government 'handouts' i.e. new low income tax credits, utility bill subsidies as a new addition to the social welfare benefits package etc. , and many 'middle class' people becoming 'poor' people as the result of rising energy prices and rising taxes !

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    Tauries
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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraViolet View Post
    Raising the price of costs of energy and increase taxes.

    I mean how does this help? We need to get a break somewhere. You can't get blood out of a stone.

    My thought is: if you keep increasing until it's unaffordable because the whole country is hurting, your customer base will go down. So while you got more money in the short term, you lost more in the long run with higher prices.

    Unlike most UV (almost called you something else out of habit...whoops!), you seem to grasp why there is no decision regarding Obama. Anyone, of ANY color,creed, blah blah PB Bullshit that wants to steal more money out of my and every other taxpayers pocket while gas and food are already hardly affordable for most is out of their silly mind. Nuff' said.

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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    Well, I only pay $3.30 a gallon for my fuel; E85. That's about $1.10 less than regular petro. And as far as I understand Obama's position, he will make it easier for Americans to get this cheaper fuel.

    But, of course if others prefer to wait 7+ years for any new oil drills to even begin producing any oil, not that it matters because all of the worlds refineries are all ready operating a maximum capacity. So even if we did have more oil, we won't have any more gas until we can refine that oil.

    So, yeah. McSame won't be helping much in re; gas prices.


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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    For all I know, both of these candidates are lying, and I have no idea which one of them, if either of them, I should trust. I'm not happy about Obama's backing a new gas tax hike, but he has also said that he wants to lower middle class taxes to pay for it. As for McCain, there simply is no difference about his "vision" and that of Bush's. He's saying the same things, and acting the same way. Yeah, we all know how the first 6 years of that presidency turned out. They say drunks don't lie. Well, when the GOP got drunk on power they turned out to be the exact opposite of everything they always claimed they stood for. Nuff said.

    As for the gas tax holiday, our transportation system, which depends on those funds, is already in the hole for $3 billion, but then again, I haven't found a GOP candidate yet that had enough integrity to contemplate we actually pay for something instead of passing the burden down to the next generation or ourselves at retirement time. In case anyone hasn't noticed, the current generation of retirees just lost 50% of their future retirement funds because of the current finiancial crisis, and guess what - we're not getting that money back. Someone is spending it somewhere though, and no doubt they're having a mighty good time while the rest of us contemplate having to work until we are 70.

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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    Well, I only pay $3.30 a gallon for my fuel; E85. That's about $1.10 less than regular petro. And as far as I understand Obama's position, he will make it easier for Americans to get this cheaper fuel.
    did you thank taxpayers in other states who are subsidizing the artificially low cost of your E85 fuel with their tax money ? Subsidies, and taxes, that Obama proposes to greatly increase ! You should also thank conventionally fueled Oregon vehicle owners for picking up your share of Oregon road tax ( which is not leveed on E85 ).

    (snip)"Growth of ethanol as a fuel source in the United States has resulted from tremendous subsidies at the federal, state, and local level. The biggest single item is the Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit, which grants a tax credit to blenders who combine ethanol with gasoline, in the amount of 51 cents per gallon of pure ethanol blended. But this is only part of the story, as detailed in a report released last October by the International Institute for Sustainable Development. In addition to the direct subsidy from the VEETC, many states reduce motor fuel taxes on favored fuels, and there are numerous separate subsidies and tax breaks for investment in the infrastructure required for biofuel production. There is also a large implicit subsidy in the form of the mandate from the Energy Policy Act of 2005 that 4 billion gallons come from renewable fuels in 2006, rising to 7.5 billion in 2012. The impact of these mandates on the price of ethanol is greatly amplified by the 54-cents-per-gallon tariff currently in effect for imports of ethyl alcohol intended for use as a fuel. Finally, there are significant direct agricultural subsidies for farmers that reduce their water, fuel, and other costs below market. The IISD estimated that such subsidies currently sum to $1.05 to $1.38 per gallon of ethanol.

    What this means is that the economic value of the resources that are used to produce a gallon of ethanol are nearly 50% greater than the value of the product to the consumers. Some have argued that ethanol is actually a net energy loss, requiring more energy in the various inputs than is contained in the final product, though the U.S. Department of Energy and a National Academy of Sciences study have endorsed the claim that there is some modest energy gain. But even assuming that ethanol does effectively add slightly to our net energy supplies, what sense does it make to pay attention only to the inputs of energy that are required in order to produce ethanol from corn, acting as if the inputs of land, labor, and capital can be valued at zero?"(snip)




    (snip)"According to a 2005 report issued by the Agriculture Department, corn ethanol costs an average of $2.53 to produce, or several times what it costs to produce a gallon of gasoline. Without the subsidies, costs would be higher still. A study last fall from the International Institute for Sustainable Development found that ethanol subsidies amount to $1.05-$1.38 per gallon, or 42 percent to 55 percent of ethanol's wholesale market price."(snip) from


    Arguably, the huge gov't subsidies which result in your E85 being sold at prices that are $1.00+ per gallon lower than the 'true' market price is exactly analogous to the huge gov't subsidies which the Chinese / Indian / Middle Eastern govt's provide which result in 'domestic' gasoline prices of $2 per gallon or less. However, the Chinese / Indian / Middle Eastern governments have discovered that they can no longer 'afford' the cost of providing these subsidies - see . If your subsidized E85 were to expand significantly in sales volume, as is promised by Obama, so will the tax revenues required to pay for those subsidies !

    In essence Obama's policy amounts to a direct subsidy in the form of higher income taxes being imposed on 'middle class' taxpayers to artificially lower the pump price of E85 for the working 'poor' (who don't actually have to pay income taxes) ! I suspect that Obama will discover that 'middle class' taxpayers can ill afford to pay higher taxes to subsidize their neighbor's motor fuel costs re E85, in the same way they can ill afford to subsidize their neighbor's heating / cooling / utility bills !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 07-21-2008 at 09:21 PM.

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    Default Re: this could swing the US presidential election ...

    The insane thing about ethanol is that we're currently using 30% of our agricultural resources (with respect to corn) to produce ethanol that represents a scant 3% of our total fuel consumption. That makes absolutely no sense what so ever. And we're doing it within one of the most oppressive subsidies that has ever been heaped upon us. It's no wonder that The Carlyle Group has applied for a permit to build the world's largest ethanol plant in our country. They more than anyone understand a good scam when they see it, not to mention the financial ties they have with our country's most powerful people. It's the good ole boy network of cronyism hard at work once again. We're not even growing the most energy efficient crops to make ethanol - switchgrass and sugar - and the corn lobby gets the blame for that one, which is another industry that we pay huge subsidies to.

    What many people do not understand is that these subsidies have the secondary consequence of hurting agriculture in other countries. It's a big reason why we have an illegal immigrant problem, as we have driven thousands of farmers out of business in Mexico and elsewhere.

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