Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 53

Thread: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

  1. #26
    Featured Member minnow's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,003
    Thanks
    242
    Thanked 519 Times in 315 Posts
    Blog Entries
    10
    My Mood
    Twisted

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    First of all I wouldn't call it "Student aid". I'd call it an expansion of public education.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Whether chicken comes before the egg, or vice versa, bon apetit!!

    What would a student have to do to qualify to go to school? The same kind of qualifications that a k-12 student must meet. Showing that he/she has met educational goals and can complete the work of his/her grade level.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I was referring to qualifications for being an aid RECIPIENT, not college admission standards. In other words, what should be seperating criterion between whether 1 person gets a free grant, and another person does not. What would taxpayers footing the bill buy into. GI Bill was 1 that taxpayers could buy into, as those recipients put their life on the line for their country in WW2. A lot of WW2 veterans were in college in 1947 when Harvard tuition was in hundreds/yr.

    And the GI bill had nothing to do with the free college available in California to all California residents. That changed in the 1960's. The GI bill is wonderful, but event hat hasn't kept up with modern tuition costs.

    We need to get our work force educated at the level of the rest of the world. That isn't going to happen if college tuition requires a stripping job to pay the bills.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Sad, but true. College tuition has risen at much faster rate than CPI increase. If people want a 4yr degree, many will have to take 1-2 yrs. at jr. or community college & transfer, rather than go 4 full yrs. at "state college".

  2. #27
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    again, the point is being missed that at today's level of tuition costs, and at today's typical after tax earnings potential for jobs corresponding with many degrees, it simply is no longer 'worth it' to invest the time and money to obtain those degrees !!! This is particularly the case now that US courts have ruled that gov't guaranteed / subsidized student loan debt is no longer dischargeable via bankruptcy, thus will follow the person FOREVER like an albatross around their highly educated but 'under-employed' neck !


    As to subsidized higher education, just wait until the mounting state budget deficits take their toll on state tax revenues being spent on state colleges, on 'in state' tuition subsidies, on student loan guarantees / interest rate buy-downs etc. The general tightening of creditworthiness standards vs the number of delinquent student loans is already taking its own toll !!!


    (snip)It’s the time of year when many high school seniors are deciding which college they will be attending in the fall. In 2008, this decision-making has been marked by growing concerns about student loan availability during these troubled times for the U.S. economy.

    In the midst of the credit crunch, foreclosure crisis and housing market collapse, investors are staying away from asset-based securities that are often the source of funding for student loans, thus making it more difficult to obtain student loans, especially from private lenders.

    Just yesterday, The Education Resources Institute (“TERI”) announced that it voluntarily filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Unfortunately, similar developments to what happened with TERI – the oldest and largest non-profit guarantor of private education loans in the country – have been witnessed with other lenders in the past couple of months:

    • On February 27th, the Pennsylvania Higher Education Assistance Agency announced that it would suspend federal-guaranteed loans beginning in early March;

    • the Missouri Higher Education Loan Authority has temporarily stopped offering private loans not guaranteed by the government;

    • the College Loan Corporation recently left the federal loan program; and

    • Sallie Mae—the largest student lender—recently tightened its lending standards.

    So in addition to becoming more difficult to obtain, student loans may also become more expensive to pay off as lenders like Sallie Mae tighten their lending standards and demand higher returns, which will likely translate to higher interest rates on these loans.

    With private lenders struggling to get financial backing, it appears that many universities are going to have to turn to federal direct programs, once again indicating that students will likely have to foot an even larger bill since private lender rebates will not be as readily available.

    A recent Wall Street Journal story detailed that, despite the growing need for a solution, the Department of Education has yet to outline emergency financial aid plans for those students unable to get loans from traditional sources."(snip)

    from


    Put another way, when the s#!t hits the fan in regard to the gov't spending tax money to subsidize the non-productive poor, or to subsidize potentially productive college students, I guaran-f#$kin-tee you that aid to higher education will be cut while social welfare spending remains the same or increases.

    As to the reason WHY tuition costs have risen as high as they have, the 'tin foil hat' crowd will tell you that this was the direct result of readily available student grant money and low interest / subsidized student loan money !!!! In other words, Moral Hazard ... if the gov't was making it possible for higher and higher levels of tuition to be 'afforded' by almost anyone, the colleges had no incentive whatsoever to control their operating costs (or the salaries of college professors). Thus a falloff in the number of students who are actually able to afford college tuitions in the future will potentially have a positive effect on existing colleges ... as the decline in 'business' forces them to clean up their collective acts in regard to budget and salary controls if the college wants to continue operating.
    Last edited by Melonie; 07-31-2008 at 01:03 PM.

  3. #28
    TheSexKitten
    Guest

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    again, the point is being missed that at today's level of tuition costs, and at today's typical after tax earnings potential for jobs corresponding with many degrees, it simply is no longer 'worth it' to invest the time and money to obtain those degrees !!! This is particularly the case now that US courts have ruled that gov't guaranteed / subsidized student loan debt is no longer dischargeable via bankruptcy, thus will follow the person FOREVER like an albatross around their highly educated but 'under-employed' neck !
    Sad but true. Having a college degree doesn't guarantee a comfortable living anymore.

  4. #29
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,493
    Thanks
    120
    Thanked 50 Times in 35 Posts

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Quote Originally Posted by minnow View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Sad, but true. College tuition has risen at much faster rate than CPI increase. If people want a 4yr degree, many will have to take 1-2 yrs. at jr. or community college & transfer, rather than go 4 full yrs. at "state college".


    For decades, the typical college graduate's wage rose well above inflation. But no longer. In the economic expansion that began in 2001 and now appears to be ending, the inflation-adjusted wages of the majority of U.S. workers didn't grow, even among those who went to college. The government's statistical snapshots show the typical weekly salary of a worker with a bachelor's degree, adjusted for inflation, didn't rise last year from 2006 and was 1.7% below the 2001 level.

  5. #30
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,493
    Thanks
    120
    Thanked 50 Times in 35 Posts

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    again, the point is being missed that at today's level of tuition costs, and at today's typical after tax earnings potential for jobs corresponding with many degrees, it simply is no longer 'worth it' to invest the time and money to obtain those degrees !!! This is particularly the case now that US courts have ruled that gov't guaranteed / subsidized student loan debt is no longer dischargeable via bankruptcy, thus will follow the person FOREVER like an albatross around their highly educated but 'under-employed' neck !
    My friends and I have talked about getting Ph.Ds and such - but when we look at how much time off we would have to take + cost of the program - the numbers always seem to come out for the worst of it.

    Now people are talking about how a MS/MA might not be really worth the effort when it comes to financial rewards in the current economic system. I was looking at another MS but that would cost $27,000 and that isn't even including lost work time! Would that bump me up 5K a year? That's half a decade simply to break even (longer with lost work) and I know I would be competing more and more with globalism where kids go to school for $5K and make it back in the US within two years... only to return home with their new skills and bust on US workers.

    Better to stick to my own game and read books.

    I fear, as things are going - people will simply get an associates or the like to get past the gate but come to a stop there cuz ROI sucks.

  6. #31
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Now people are talking about how a MS/MA might not be really worth the effort when it comes to financial rewards in the current economic system. I was looking at another MS but that would cost $27,000 and that isn't even including lost work time! Would that bump me up 5K a year? That's half a decade simply to break even (longer with lost work) and I know I would be competing more and more with globalism where kids go to school for $5K and make it back in the US within two years... only to return home with their new skills and bust on US workers.
    And don't forget that the extra $5k is before income taxes are extracted ... which in the wage range you're talking about would probably suck up $2k of the $5k, putting your simple payback on a $27k investment which pays back $3k a year after taxes out to 9 years.

    But that isn't the whole story either, because making the same $27k investment in a tax free 3% interest muni bond would actually yield a total of $35k after 9 years, or about $1k per year in 'time value of money' loss. Thus in truth your $27k investment actually results in a $2k per year net increase in after tax earnings, resulting in a 13 year payback.

    But then you really need to subtract the 'lost opportunity cost' of spending time for 'free' working on your PhD instead of working an equal number of hours at anything else that pays ! Even at minimum wage, this would totally blow any payback out the window making pursuit of a PhD a 'loser'.

    And finally, Moral Hazard again rears its ugly head ... because the more progressive income tax rates rise, and the more the minimum wage (and thus stepped pay rates above the minimum wage) are increased, the less incentive exists to invest time and money in an advanced degree.

  7. #32
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    All true about the time and money required to obtain a college degree until you look at the overall difference in earnings between college grads and those with just high school diplomas. There is still a wide gap.

  8. #33
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,493
    Thanks
    120
    Thanked 50 Times in 35 Posts

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    All true about the time and money required to obtain a college degree until you look at the overall difference in earnings between college grads and those with just high school diplomas. There is still a wide gap.
    I am not saying it is that time yet - but I am saying that the payback for an advanced education seems to be working it's way down.

  9. #34
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    I am not saying it is that time yet - but I am saying that the payback for an advanced education seems to be working it's way down.
    The question is WHY ? The high paying jobs usually require a college degree but the costs of getting that degree continue to climb, along with everything else.

  10. #35
    God/dess Paris's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6,345
    Thanks
    168
    Thanked 801 Times in 419 Posts

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    We already have a system of subsidized tuition. State Universities plus financial aid and a host of grants and scholarship programs.
    A person has to be practically starving to get free money for school (from the government. Of course there are private scholarships available to those who fit the qualifications). There are lots of loans available, but who wants to be $100K in debt and in an entry level job?


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


  11. #36
    God/dess Paris's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6,345
    Thanks
    168
    Thanked 801 Times in 419 Posts

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    The question is WHY ? The high paying jobs usually require a college degree but the costs of getting that degree continue to climb, along with everything else.
    Because other developed nations give away college education to their citizens. No school debt or expenses, means the college grad can work for lower wages and still get ahead.

    So, if a student in France (for instance) can eliminate the expense of school, medical insurance and have greatly reduced transportation expenses (due to readily available public transportation) upon graduation, an entry level job paying $25K a year is totally doable.

    An American college grad is looking at paying his own medical insurance, purchasing a car, insurance and gas and paying back student loan debt on the same $25K a year is a lot harder to accomplish.


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


  12. #37
    God/dess Paris's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6,345
    Thanks
    168
    Thanked 801 Times in 419 Posts

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    I was referring to qualifications for being an aid RECIPIENT, not college admission standards. In other words, what should be seperating criterion between whether 1 person gets a free grant, and another person does not. What would taxpayers footing the bill buy into.


    What I meant was to include a four year college degree into public education just like k-12. No American child needs to apply for a grant to attend the 9th grade. It should be the same with college.

    It is really the only way we are going to remain competitive with the rest of the world. If we don't do this (or something on par) we will slip into third world status in a couple of generations.


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


  13. #38
    Featured Member minnow's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,003
    Thanks
    242
    Thanked 519 Times in 315 Posts
    Blog Entries
    10
    My Mood
    Twisted

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    What I meant was to include a four year college degree into public education just like k-12. No American child needs to apply for a grant to attend the 9th grade. It should be the same with college.

    It is really the only way we are going to remain competitive with the rest of the world. If we don't do this (or something on par) we will slip into third world status in a couple of generations.
    [/font]
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Ahhh, now I think I'm a little more clear. I also don't buy into it, because once you branch out into college, things become more specialized, and less "cookie cutter" (like K-12 is) K-12 take pretty much the same core courses- but there's a lot of difference between what a political science or journalism major would take vs. nuclear engineering or physics major. Which govt. entity would you propose to put forth funding- state or federal?? How would teaching staffs be allocated? Which degreed specialties do you think USA needs more of to be more competitive globally? What if an insufficient number of US students opt for, say, an engineering degree, but a large number opt for less challenging, less "relevant" degrees? Meanwhile, there are some talented foreign students knocking on the doors of the challenging degree schools. So, would anything really be gained if more US students got more "free" 4 yr. degrees, but they weren't the kind needed to design/build better products, or find cures for dreaded diseases??

  14. #39
    God/dess
    Joined
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Your imagination
    Posts
    2,875
    Thanks
    19
    Thanked 174 Times in 119 Posts

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    Because other developed nations give away college education to their citizens. No school debt or expenses, means the college grad can work for lower wages and still get ahead.

    So, if a student in France (for instance) can eliminate the expense of school, medical insurance and have greatly reduced transportation expenses (due to readily available public transportation) upon graduation, an entry level job paying $25K a year is totally doable.

    An American college grad is looking at paying his own medical insurance, purchasing a car, insurance and gas and paying back student loan debt on the same $25K a year is a lot harder to accomplish.
    those other countries tend to do the filtering very early on (like age 12). also, the unemployment rate in france is pretty nuts-- the labor laws mean you aren't getting a job unless you're connected (i.e., of the right class/ethnic group-- france's racial issues are pretty appalling, as much as anything seen in america).

    free school is easy when you use exams to filter out most of the kids early on who'd be getting that 'free school'.

    also, france is a country the size of texas. an entire country that small can put together some pretty impressive point-to-point public transport compared to america (where it would have to be done for texas and 47 other contiguous states).

    america really is different than the places it's compared to. bigger in population and land size (usually, canada would be an exception on the land size), handling ethnic diversity a lot better in some ways, among just a few basic differences.

    college is a racket. 'i'm debt-free except for student loans' is one of the most insidiously awful memes to take hold in american society. when you have people going into debt 50, 70, 100k to attend private universities for a degree in comparative literature (or worse yet a degree in education-- there's a societal barnacle-job category if ever there was one), college is a racket.

    i'm old (over 25). i'm already eligible for academic scholarship money after one semester. hmm-- pay for 1 semester and have the rest covered by scholarships or take out loans?

    not all private scholarships are for red haired, six toed people named bittsville. and lots of public colleges just give away money by the fistful.

    anyone going into debt for college who isn't entering a professional trade (lawyer/doctor/accountant/actuary/engineer) is just not terrible bright. and even in those trades, there are often ways to get the education paid for and not pick up debt. actuaries are a case in point. many employers will help cover school before you even graduate once they learn you're studying to do that work and give you paid internships in summers.

    and doctors tending poor people can often get that schooling covered as well.

    debt is not the path to wealth.

  15. #40
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    free school is easy when you use exams to filter out most of the kids early on who'd be getting that 'free school'.
    ^^^ Miabella has zeroed in on the precise principle that makes 'free' higher education in socialized countries possible. Just like socialized health care involves gov't decisions as to which people 'deserve' expensive medical treatments versus which people don't, socialized education involves gov't decisions as to which people 'deserve' expensive higher education versus which people don't. NO COUNTRY can afford to provide a 'free' 4 year college education for every citizen, just as no country can afford to provide 'free' medical care without procedural limits for every citizen. In fact, both must be rationed to maintain sustainable total costs levels to the gov't, so the gov't must make decisions as to which citizens will receive the 'expensive' benefits versus which citizens will not.

    Can you imagine the impact if America attempted to enact the French gov't controlled education model ? The first problem would be the testing being done and 'cut' being made at the end of (US term for age 12) grade school ... at which point the gov't would evaluate the test results and divide students into two clear categories, those with college potential and those without. At that point, 'whose without' would be directed to (US term for occupationally oriented) trade schools while 'those with' would be directed to (US term for full subject exposure) high schools. As in France, this 'cut' would undoubtedly doom a large percentage of minority / inner city students to the trade school path. But in France, there are few comments and no effective protests about the 'racism' of the gov't excluding large numbers of inner city muslim residents from the path to a college education based on their poor test results. I highly doubt that Rev. Al Sharpton or LA mayor Villiagrossa would be equally complacent !


    lots of public colleges just give away money by the fistful.
    Arguably, this is part of the reason that the starting pay rates for US public college graduates has been stagnant or declining. Forgive me for bringing up a politically incorrect topic, but for a fact the huge public college giveaway of taxpayer money in the form of grants and direct subsidies to public / community colleges, the huge effort to make community college available to every US resident regardless of demonstrated academic ability, previous efforts to achieve 'diversity' in college student bodies with the associated lowering of academic standards for admission etc. have resulted in public college graduates who are in fact far less able to perform in real world entry level jobs than was the case for public college graduates 20-30-40 years ago. In comparison, private colleges have for the most part maintained their admission standards as well as their educational standards.

    Many US employers have, as a result, been forced to institute their own 'training programs' in order to teach real world job skills to public college graduates AFTER they have graduated and been hired. The costs of such programs, as well as the comparative lack of productivity of new hires, inevitably filters its way to starting pay rates for public college graduates. Of course, employers typically do NOT have the same productivity / job skill issues when hiring new graduates from private colleges. This in turn is creating a widening gap in starting pay rate between public college and private college graduates - which is not surprising since a very wide gap has developed along similar lines i.e. private colleges versus public colleges in France, India etc. See

    (snip)"in 2004 India had 974 private engineering colleges, as compared with only 291 public and government institutions. These centres address skill gaps that exist between companies' needs and the capabilities of college graduates. These [private - sic] schools tend to serve as a 'finishing school' for engineers."(snip)

    The same link also expresses an important concept to potential employers ... that engineering degrees from public and government institutions in India are becoming a 'commodity product', which is increasingly unsuitable as qualification for hiring. US industries have already come to this conclusion in regard to graduates of many public versus private colleges.

    In essence, in France and India and increasingly so in the USA, the gov't's policy re public college admissions standards, and the gov't's policy in regard to financial subsidies to public colleges and students at public colleges, has 'devalued' the degrees issued by these public colleges - with associated direct effect on the number of jobs and starting pay rates being offered to new public college graduates. The same phenomena has also 'raised the bar' for employer hiring qualifications such that a public college educated engineer (or whatever) may now be forced to obtain a Masters or Doctorate degree to be hired for a job where a public college bachelor's degree would have been sufficient 20 years ago. However, in countries with gov't controlled education systems, Masters and Doctorate programs almost always fall outside of the 'free' gov't education system !!!

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-03-2008 at 06:36 AM.

  16. #41
    Veteran Member winterrose's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2008
    Location
    mississippi
    Posts
    394
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 14 Times in 8 Posts

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Having served this country from 1994-1997 active duty Navy, and 1997-2002 Reserve Navy. The GI Bill isn't everything the civillian sector thinks it is. It barely paid anything and the money received has to be filed on taxes as income.

    I served this country and saw combat in Bosnia, not a fun time for me I still have flashbacks and nightmares from that. I shattered my kneecap, it is now plastic, onboard the USS Roosevelt during routine operations while we were in the Adriatic Sea supporting the troops on the ground.

    My technical skills enabled me to have a great job post service in Aviation until 9/11 happened, my job vanished.
    I went back to school, my degree isn't complete. Probably won't be for the forseeable future.

    The only thing my service to this country really got me was Veteran status, a few medals, and awards, some now useless skills, medical care for the rest of my life due to my service connected injury.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "I'm gonna have a drink and walk around, I got a lot to think about, oh yeah"---Concrete Blonde

  17. #42
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Let me be the first to say that your sacrifice is not unappreciated !

    I agree that the GI bill educational benefits suck ... and can actually be next to worthless if you are also working at a decent paying job such that the GI bill money winds up kicking you into a higher tax bracket in regard to your regular earnings.

  18. #43
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    All true about the time and money required to obtain a college degree until you look at the overall difference in earnings between college grads and those with just high school diplomas. There is still a wide gap.
    Yes there is a wide gap ... but that gap only appears to be as wide as it does if you ...

    A. - neglect to factor in the 2-4 years worth of additional income that result from devoting your time to a decently paid high school diploma qualifications job versus the non-paying 2-4 years spent as a college student. For four years, this can easily add up to 4 * $30k or $120k. From this standpoint, taking out $100k worth of loans to obtain a bachelor's degree actually puts you $220,000 in the 'hole' upon graduation. But more importantly to this example, the $120k in foregone earnings potential - when spread over a 40 year career - narrows the gap by $3,000 per year.

    B. - neglect to factor in the fact that the 'pre-tax' pay rate gap that exists is significantly reduced in 'after-tax' terms. Because US income taxes are very progressive, the effects are disproportional. Let's choose an example where a high school qualifications job pays $32k per year and a college degree qualifications job pays $45k. On the surface the 13k gap looks huge. However, on an 'after tax' basis, the $32k earner will probably only pay 5% = $1,600 in federal income tax. In comparison, the $45k earner will likely pay 10% = $4,500 in federal income tax ... which narrows the 13k gap by another $3,000. Living and working in a high income tax state only further reduces the gap.

    C. - if you neglect the 'time value of money' drag created by student loan payments after graduation which are NOT dischargeable via bankruptcy. For a $100k student loan balance at 7% interest that typically accompanies a 4 year college degree, with a 10 year loan term this amounts to payments of $1161 per month or a total of $ 139k in loan payments. This amounts to $39k in interest payments or almost $4k in additional annual interest expense over the 10 year life of the loan which further narrows the gap.

    If you have been keeping a running total, it begins to look like the $13k per year intial gap in earnings potential between a high school qualifications job and a college degree job was initially narrowed to $10k by the 'lost opportunity cost' of giving up four years worth of paychecks. It was further narrowed down to $7k by the additional income taxes taken out of the college degree job's higher paycheck. It was further narrowed down to $4k by the interest only payments on the student loans. Thus at the 10 year point in this example, the 'payback equation' actually boils down to a $100,000 student loan principal versus 10* $4,000 in de-facto additional earnings, leaving the degree holder still $60,000 'in the hole' - where on the surface it might appeared that the $13k in gross earnings pay gap would have placed them in the position of being $30,000 'to the good' at this point.

    D. - neglect to factor in 'depreciation' of many degrees with time. Granted that, over time, the earnings gap may widen as a person with a college degree works their way up the career ladder ... but 'may' widen does not equal 'will definitely' widen. There is now a new factor to consider as well ... the fact that the faster the information age accelerates progress, the faster a college degree 'depreciates'. Again I'll pick an obvious example ... an IT degree. If someone is laid off after working for 10 years at the same American software company (i.e. the point where their student loans were paid off), odds are that a different software company is NOT going to value their 10 year old degree as highly as a new graduate's degree - since the material covered in IT courses 10 years ago is essentially obsolete in terms of the current needs of the different software company.

    This means that if the now 32 year old laid off IT degree holder wishes to improve their chances of being hired by a different software company at a pay rate similar to their old job, they will have to invest MORE time and money in taking additional up to date college courses before they start receiving paychecks from the different software company. But if the laid off IT degree holder chooses NOT to invest more time and money in additional up to date college courses, the pay rate of the jobs that they are likely to be hired for immediately will be lower. This of course demands that either new 'lost opportunity cost' and new student loan (and student loan interest) expense be taken on, or alternately requires that a lower wage gap will exist in the future ... either of which will greatly alter the original 'payback' calculation re getting the original degree 10 years ago !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-03-2008 at 09:23 AM.

  19. #44
    God/dess Paris's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6,345
    Thanks
    168
    Thanked 801 Times in 419 Posts

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Ahhh, but what if the United States did give away four year degrees? Think about how that would effect our nation vs. thinking about why it wouldn't work.

    Consider for a moment what kind of global competition we could create in our work force if our children were (once again) the most highly educated on the planet.

    And just because France or Denmark or Russia run their public colleges a certain way, doesn't mean it is the only way. Why would we do things like everyone else?

    You say why a thing cannot be done, and I ask, why not?


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


  20. #45
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Ahhh, but what if the United States did give away four year degrees? Think about how that would effect our nation vs. thinking about why it wouldn't work.
    Well, for starters, it would mean that every middle class American would have to bear the burden of tax increases sufficient to pay for the college educations of their 'poor' neighbor's children as well as their own children.

    After a few years, it would also mean that every American job that now requires a 2 year degree would in turn require a 4 year degree- simply because there would be more unemployed Americans with 4 year degrees available. This would in turn mean that jobs now requiring a high school education would require a 2 year degree. I don't know what it would mean to those who were academically unable to obtain a 2 year degree ... but I can speculate !

    And just because France or Denmark or Russia run their public colleges a certain way, doesn't mean it is the only way. Why would we do things like everyone else?
    We would be forced to 'do things like everyone else' because college facilities don't materialize for free ... because college professors don't work for free ... etc. Countries with gov't operated higher education have to juggle the cost to the gov't of providing 'free' college educations against the tax saturation point of their citizens and also against all other types of gov't spending.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-03-2008 at 10:37 AM.

  21. #46
    God/dess Paris's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6,345
    Thanks
    168
    Thanked 801 Times in 419 Posts

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Well, for starters, it would mean that every middle class American would have to bear the burden of tax increases sufficient to pay for the college educations of their 'poor' neighbor's children as well as their own children.
    We already do this for k-12. I have no children and I pay taxes for schools just like everyone else. It is an investment in the future. Don't give away your future for an imaginary gain today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    After a few years, it would also mean that every American job that now requires a 2 year degree would in turn require a 4 year degree- simply because there would be more unemployed Americans with 4 year degrees available. This would in turn mean that jobs now requiring a high school education would require a 2 year degree. I don't know what it would mean to those who were academically unable to obtain a 2 year degree ... but I can speculate !
    This assumes that a highly educated workforce would be eschewed by corporations in favor of menial labor. I submit to you that a highly educated workforce would bring about innovations that are impossible to speculate upon today, leading to higher wages for everyone.



    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    We would be forced to 'do things like everyone else' because college facilities don't materialize for free ... because college professors don't work for free ... etc. Countries with gov't operated higher education have to juggle the cost to the gov't of providing 'free' college educations against the tax saturation point of their citizens and also against all other types of gov't spending.

    ~
    There is no merit to this argument. Americans have always redefined the way the world functions. Americans have a way of using someone else's idea and improving upon it.

    So, if I'm reading you correctly, Mel, you are against the United States having the most highly educated work force on the planet? Is it that you believe that higher education should be strictly the province of the wealthy ruling elite? If that is the case, I think you may be living in the wrong country.

    And why do you always feel that the "middle class" is going to be the target of higher taxes? Hell, publicly funded college will free up the middle class of a huge financial burden of trying to fund college education for their children. The middle class won't have to risk mortgaging the family home to pay tuition. The retirement of the middle class parents would be more secure, social security would be better funded with higher employment as well as higher wages.

    Paying for an educated work force is like creating a long term investment account. You don't see much result for your money over month to month measurements, but over 20 years the gains are amazing. It is like compound interest for our nation.


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


  22. #47
    Veteran Member winterrose's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2008
    Location
    mississippi
    Posts
    394
    Thanks
    1
    Thanked 14 Times in 8 Posts

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Egypt tried something similiar about education for everyone...only they went a step further. they made the gaurantee that if someone got their degree they would have a job. As a result Egypt's government employs more people than they really have need for, the jobs are low paying.

    If anything I strongly support something not many people will agree with, it is much like Isreal does... 2 years mandatory service in the military for both males and females.
    Or if you don't qualify for the service...then 2 years in the Peace Corps. Either way this country and other countries benefit. As does the individual.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    "I'm gonna have a drink and walk around, I got a lot to think about, oh yeah"---Concrete Blonde

  23. #48
    God/dess Paris's Avatar
    Joined
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Oregon
    Posts
    6,345
    Thanks
    168
    Thanked 801 Times in 419 Posts

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Quote Originally Posted by winterrose View Post
    If anything I strongly support something not many people will agree with, it is much like Isreal does... 2 years mandatory service in the military for both males and females.
    Or if you don't qualify for the service...then 2 years in the Peace Corps. Either way this country and other countries benefit. As does the individual.
    Now you are thinking! Unfortunately, Peace Corps only accepts college grads and prefers those working on post grad degrees.

    I've tried to apply to the Peace Corp on several occasions, and I just don't qualify due to no degree.


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


  24. #49
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Mel, you are against the United States having the most highly educated work force on the planet? Is it that you believe that higher education should be strictly the province of the wealthy ruling elite? If that is the case, I think you may be living in the wrong country.
    no, I believe as our founding fathers did that the USA should be a 'meritocracy'. I also have observed the effects of gov't intervention in high schools, and am of the opinion that providing 'free' public college education to every American will devalue that college education for ALL public colleges, for students with 'merit' and without 'merit' alike - who will attend public colleges just because they can even though they are not properly prepared. As a result, as in India, before long the only degrees that employers will respect will be those obtained from private colleges ... which would leave us with an even larger gap between the children of the 'elite' with private college degrees versus the children of the middle class with public college degrees. In the real world, your egalitarian suggestion would actually aggravate the situation you are trying to improve !

    And why do you always feel that the "middle class" is going to be the target of higher taxes? Hell, publicly funded college will free up the middle class of a huge financial burden of trying to fund college education for their children. The middle class won't have to risk mortgaging the family home to pay tuition
    Unfortunately, this is won't fly in the real world either. SOMEBODY must pay for all of these 'free' college tuitions. If you grasp for a total dollar cost, say there are 300 million Americans and a 75 year life span, meaning that at any given time there will be 4/75*300 million or 16 million college age Americans. Then let's say that only 1/2 of those or 8 million choose to take advantage of a 'free' college education. Then let's say that gov't run college costs can be controlled at a level of $20,000 per student per year (equal to the lowest per student gov't spending for state university education). This represents an additional 8 million * $20,000 or 160 billion dollars per year - and unlike a middle east conflict or a 'subprime' bailout this will go on year after year forever. Now there are 120 million Americans that file tax returns, and 60 million of those who actually pay income taxes. Therefore your 'free' college educations would cost those that actually pay income taxes an additional 160 billion / 60 million or $2,700 per year in income taxes to provide a 'free' public college education for their children. Spread over a 45 year working life, this amounts to spending $121,000 for 'free' public college education. For families with two working parents and two children, this in turn represents spending $121,000 per child for a public college education - with limited job prospects after graduation. Under today's system, the parents would spend far less for a public college education, and would spend about the same for a private college education with much improved job prospects. However, under your proposal, only parents who could afford to pay the $121k in additional taxes PLUS another $120k for private college tuition can provide their children with a college degree that will in fact be valued by future employers and thus provide good career opportunities for their children. The rich elite will certainly be able to do this. The middle class will not.

  25. #50
    God/dess kitana's Avatar
    Joined
    Jun 2004
    Location
    kentucky
    Posts
    3,582
    Thanks
    49
    Thanked 60 Times in 43 Posts

    Default Re: The U.S. Will Continue to Decline

    Quote Originally Posted by winterrose View Post

    If anything I strongly support something not many people will agree with, it is much like Isreal does... 2 years mandatory service in the military for both males and females.
    Or if you don't qualify for the service...then 2 years in the Peace Corps. Either way this country and other countries benefit. As does the individual.
    I agree 110%!

    Unless you have a medical illness which prevents you from serving, everyone, man and woman, should have to do their time.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Quote Originally Posted by ExoticEngineer View Post
    Feel like a damn salt lick at the goats petting zoo!
    <08SM>

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. To continue to lie or tell the truth?
    By _Avery_ in forum Life Support
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 02-28-2011, 10:43 AM
  2. 5 months pregnant and having to continue
    By RespectThisHustle in forum Stripping (was Stripping General)
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 03-07-2009, 08:06 PM
  3. How long can this continue?
    By needtodance in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 12-31-2007, 03:30 PM
  4. Really seems like the biz is in decline
    By itsthatguy in forum Customer Conversation
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 09-07-2006, 05:58 PM
  5. Why the decline
    By princess_cat in forum Stripping (was Stripping General)
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: 01-13-2006, 08:15 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •