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Thread: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by ViolaStrings View Post
    OMG. Are you serious? You're trying to compare avoiding sexualizing young girls to eliminating sex education? Really? You don't see an appropriate middle ground?
    When did I say that?

    The book "Harmful to Minors" covers MANY issues. And I don't necessarily agree with all the author has to say.

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by ViolaStrings View Post
    ^ your friend who is attracted to young girls is a sicko. Seriously. There's something wrong with people who aren't turned on by people in their peer group.
    So we should outlaw rape fantasy porn, milf porn, necrophilia fantasy porn, basically anything that plays with differences in age or fantasies of illegal activities or anything taboo...right?

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by lestat1 View Post
    Not to rehash a discussion I already had in blue, but "adult" has two main definitions, one is defined biologically through the sexual maturation process, one is defined legally. Pedophilia would be attraction to someone not yet an adult under the biological definition, acting on an attraction with someone not yet a legal adult would generally be statutory rape, regardless of their biological adulthood. Note that neither case cares about the status of the other.
    There is a more valid definition of adulthood: emotional maturity, which occurs later than the legal age of adulthood, and much later than the biological capacity to procreate. It has nothing to do with breasts, hips, anything. Not that guys who are attracted to children and teenagers care about the emotional state of their objects of desire.

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie Rebel View Post
    So we should outlaw rape fantasy porn, milf porn, necrophilia fantasy porn, basically anything that plays with differences in age or fantasies of illegal activities or anything taboo...right?
    I never said outlaw. Not all that is wrong is illegal, not all that is illegal is wrong. But I think there's a big difference between MILF porn or fantasy-rape and lusting after a minor.

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by ViolaStrings View Post
    There is a more valid definition of adulthood: emotional maturity, which occurs later than the legal age of adulthood, and much later than the biological capacity to procreate. It has nothing to do with breasts, hips, anything. Not that guys who are attracted to children and teenagers care about the emotional state of their objects of desire.
    Well under that definition, my ex-girlfriend is a pedophile.

    EDIT: Okay to not be so silly about it, do you consider sex with someone not so emotionally mature to be pedophilia still, or more like "inappropriate / questionable / etc ?"
    Quote Originally Posted by _Avery_ View Post
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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by NewMoon View Post
    What I find disturbing about your attitude is that it encourages people who are attracted to young girls to deny their feelings, feel ashamed, and cover it up. I guarantee that attitudes like this ENCOURAGE child molestation. When people feel comfortable acknowledging their attraction they can seek help without help and learn healthy outlets.

    As much as I would like attraction to children to not exist, it DOES and we have to deal with it the best way possible.
    No, they need to seek psychological help to address their mental disorder, what caused it, and eliminate it. They don't need to whack off to the girl scout section of the JC Penny catalog and think that's a solution.

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by ViolaStrings View Post
    We shouldn't derive our power or influence over others from our sexuality. It shouldn't even occur to teenage girls, not in a society that has a healthy view of girls and treats them thusly.
    What about 18-year-old and 19-year-old exotic dancers?

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by ViolaStrings View Post
    No, they need to seek psychological help to address their mental disorder, what caused it, and eliminate it. They don't need to whack off to the girl scout section of the JC Penny catalog and think that's a solution.
    So you think that sexual attraction to young girls can just be "eliminated" with psychological help?

    I wish psychology were so advanced!

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by lestat1 View Post
    Well under that definition, my ex-girlfriend is a pedophile.

    EDIT: Okay to not be so silly about it, do you consider sex with someone not so emotionally mature to be pedophilia still, or more like "inappropriate / questionable / etc ?"
    Like with someone of diminished mental capacity? Like a low IQ 20 year old, or someone with a major emotional disorder? Yes, I consider that abusive from someone who uses that state to coerce them or manipulate them into sex. Not pedophilia, but obviously inappropriate and abusive.

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by Budai View Post
    What about 18-year-old and 19-year-old exotic dancers?
    I started at 18, and I think most of us can agree we didn't know what we were getting ourselves into.

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by ViolaStrings View Post
    I never said outlaw. Not all that is wrong is illegal, not all that is illegal is wrong. But I think there's a big difference between MILF porn or fantasy-rape and lusting after a minor.
    Oh, I thought we were still talking about young looking adults...18, 19, 20...That's fantasy, IMO.

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by Dottie Rebel View Post
    Wha? I realized that I was an object of sexual desire for much older men when I was 14. I wasn't stressed or confused. It was just like, "Oh, here we go..."
    Stressed and confused doesn't necessarily mean "oh my, what is going on? STOP LOOKING AT ME! I'm so ashamed!" But I don't think we would need to look very far to see a bunch of women obsessed with youth-derived sexuality and think that sex - in particular the naughty girl sex - is the best thing they have to offer guys.

    While it may be normal to check out someone of "breeding age", I think you guys are attributing more to nature than is necessarily correct. The shapes we fetishize now, while they can belong to adult women typically belong to younger girls, which is why we fetishize them. There is a reason it is called the "gamine look". Fetishization is not all about nature and breeding.

    In this particular case, someone said earlier that the criticizer was "off her skiis" because these girls are not only mainly adults, they don't seem to have particularly dimunitive builds. To me they look like strong adults.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by NewMoon View Post
    So you think that sexual attraction to young girls can just be "eliminated" with psychological help?

    I wish psychology were so advanced!
    Not necessarily, but seeking discreet help and acknowledging that you have a problem is better than trying to self-treat an obvious mental disorder.

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by ViolaStrings View Post
    Not necessarily, but seeking discreet help and acknowledging that you have a problem is better than trying to self-treat an obvious mental disorder.
    What if you do have a therapist and do whack-off to young girls?

    I fail to see how whacking off to young girls is a harmful way to deal with your attraction. I'm inclined to think that it actually PREVENTS child molestation.

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by NewMoon View Post
    What I find disturbing about your attitude is that it encourages people who are attracted to young girls to deny their feelings, feel ashamed, and cover it up. I guarantee that attitudes like this ENCOURAGE child molestation. When people feel comfortable acknowledging their attraction they can seek help without help and learn healthy outlets.

    As much as I would like attraction to children to not exist, it DOES and we have to deal with it the best way possible.
    There has got to something between "deny at all costs, even seeking help" and "celebrate as long as you don't physically touch a child".

    Like, intuitively, I am so uncomfortable with normalizing attraction to children so that people seek help, and I cannot agree that refusing to normalize it encourages child molestation.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexxaHex View Post
    No one is saying they are attracted to very young girls. But I believe they are saying it's a normal, biological impulse to check someone out who appears to be of breeding age. It's very different from taking physical advantage of an innocent person who cannot give consent. I believe there are people here who are getting rightfully offended that you are saying that women have curves, and they look underage if they don't.
    What she actually said was that women have "woman curves" and girls have "girl curves"--- which she pointed out is the case with the 18-20 year old gymnasts. They are women, yet have "girl curves".

    Your guess is as good as mine as to what all that means.

    For what it's worth, I found myself checking out a group of teenage girls at the mall the other day who couldn't be over 14-15. What? They were hot. Am I a sicko?

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    There has got to something between "deny at all costs, even seeking help" and "celebrate as long as you don't physically touch a child".

    Like, intuitively, I am so uncomfortable with normalizing attraction to children so that people seek help, and I cannot agree that refusing to normalize it encourages child molestation.
    What I would like to see is an attitude that people who are attracted exclusively to children have a problem and that we need to be supportive. My first goal would be to eliminate the attraction. If that can't be accomplished, my second goal would be to encourage safe outlets.

    What I don't like to see is people who call them various names like "perverts" and suggest they are likely child molesters. It is attitudes like these that discourage people to seek help. Many people don't realize that pedophile doesn't mean child molester.

    I wouldn't go so far as to say it should be celebrated and encouraged.

    In comparison, I don't think the attitude towards sexual abuse in families going from "don't talk about it EVER and cover it up" in the 50s to "let's talk and be open" in 2008 has encouraged more abuse. In fact, I think it has been beneficial.

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by NewMoon View Post
    What if you do have a therapist and do whack-off to young girls?

    I fail to see how whacking off to young girls is a harmful way to deal with your attraction. I'm inclined to think that it actually PREVENTS child molestation.
    So I'm thinking about it. I think if someone has these feelings they are eventually going to act out on them inappropriately, no matter what. I don't know what the solution is, I just know that there is something deeply wrong with someone who feels this way.

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by ViolaStrings View Post
    So I'm thinking about it. I think if someone has these feelings they are eventually going to act out on them inappropriately, no matter what. I don't know what the solution is, I just know that there is something deeply wrong with someone who feels this way.
    I think you are VERY wrong that this means people WILL act on it. It is extremely common for people to be attracted to individuals without raping them. I think it may shock you to know how many men get turned on by young girls.

    And yes, there is something deeply wrong with people who are exclusively attracted to children. But we have to deal with it.

    Again, I think it's attitudes like you are demonstrating "they WILL eventually hurt a child" that discourage people from seeking help and contribute to the rates of child molestation.

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by ViolaStrings View Post
    Like with someone of diminished mental capacity? Like a low IQ 20 year old, or someone with a major emotional disorder? Yes, I consider that abusive from someone who uses that state to coerce them or manipulate them into sex. Not pedophilia, but obviously inappropriate and abusive.
    I agree with that. I don't think that "major emotional disorder" describes most 16 or 17 year olds though, as annoying as they might be. lol
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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    I disagree with the current mindset that teenagers are little children, asexual and undeveloped, until their 18th birthdays, at which point they miraculously turn into adults at the stroke of midnight. It's ridiculous.
    Well that's people. They like things to be simple. On their 18th birthday a magic fairy comes down and turns them ALL into adults. It's so nice and simple. Don't make me have to use my brain and have to deal with complex things like maturity is a process that happens slowly over many years. I want to live life on auto-pilot

    p.s. sarcasm of course

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by NewMoon View Post
    What I would like to see is an attitude that people who are attracted exclusively to children have a problem and that we need to be supportive. My first goal would be to eliminate the attraction. If that can't be accomplished, my second goal would be to encourage safe outlets.
    Well - before we start encouraging and normalizing safe outlets, I would suggest that we need some agreement from the psychologist community that a "safe outlet" acts as an outlet and not to encourage and exacerbate the problem. Like... I don't think the reason pedophiles offend is because they couldn't find a Tiger Beat to jerk off to. I said in another thread that pedophiles, by and large aren't in strip clubs - but there is no shortage of children walking around to watch, of catalogues, of teen mags. There is not a shortage of "safe outlets", and I imagine that pedophiles feel pretty discouraged to offend as it is

    What I don't like to see is people who call them various names like "perverts" and suggest they are likely child molesters. It is attitudes like these that discourage people to seek help. Many people don't realize that pedophile doesn't mean child molester.
    No... but doesn't it mean something pretty close to someone who is pretty likely to be a child molester? What percentage of pedophiles do you think is non-offending?
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by NewMoon View Post
    In comparison, I don't think the attitude towards sexual abuse in families going from "don't talk about it EVER and cover it up" in the 50s to "let's talk and be open" in 2008 has encouraged more abuse. In fact, I think it has been beneficial.
    Oh my. I would say a significant distinguishing factor in this analysis is that one is encouraging victims to be open, confident and not blame themselves, the other is encouraging the potential offender. The offender is less likely victimize victims who are less likely to be silently vicitmized; I'm not sure you can expect a mirror result in making the offender open, confident and normalizing deviant desires.
    I have taught that the sky in all its zones is mortal and its substance was formed by a process of birth

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    ^^^Depends how you define pedophile. I always group them as "exclusive" and "non-exlusive". The non-exlusive don't worry me so much. It's the "exclusive" group that worry me. It also depends on what attraction is considered pedophilic. Some consider it anyone under 18. I personally consider it before puberty, regardless of when that may occur.

    If we went with men who are aroused (exlusively or not) by prepubescent girls, I would confidently say that less than 5% abuse children.

    If we consider the "exclusive" group only, I would guess it is very high but I have no way of knowing exactly how high it is.

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    Default Re: Gymnasts, pervs, and the Olympics

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    Oh my. I would say a significant distinguishing factor in this analysis is that one is encouraging victims to be open, confident and not blame themselves, the other is encouraging the potential offender. The offender is less likely victimize victims who are less likely to be silently vicitmized; I'm not sure you can expect a mirror result in making the offender open, confident and normalizing deviant desires.
    I agree with you on all points except when you say "the other is encouraging the potential offender".

    If you don't like my comparison to sexual abuse within the family, then let's compare it to another mental problem. Suicide.

    Do you think that encouraging people to talk about suicide and tell people when they have suicidal feelings is encouraging the suicide to take place?

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