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Thread: man charged with murder for wife's suicide

  1. #26
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    Default Re: man charged with murder for wife's suicide

    I think active euthanasia is legal in Sweden or Switzerland. I forget which as Ive tried hard to forget that awful essay. I didnt have trouble finding info but it was a case of having too much info and finding something relevant to discuss in a 1500 word essay. Not an easy task.
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    Default Re: man charged with murder for wife's suicide

    ^^^

    The USA is similarly confusing, though DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) Doctor's orders (passive Euthanasia) do legally happen in the USA in some places.

    --

    What is tough about this case to me is shown by way of examples.

    If I tell the average person to commit a crime, the average person can/would say no, and be held majority accountable if they agree. If I hand them an instrument by which to commit the crime, it doesn't alter their accountability. They can't say, "well he handed me a tool to make it easier to commit the crime so I am less accountable for my choice"

    But if I told someone who is a young minor to do the same, I as an adult would be held greatly accountable.

    The problem is we have black and white legal cut off ages for what is minor versus adult, but in reality despite that minors are held responsible to varying degrees depending on their age and the circumstances, and the black and white cut off age of adulthood assumes people with normal minds.

    But what if I ask a developmentally disabled person with an IQ of 75 to commit a crime? What if they have a 95 IQ? Or 92? Hmm... at what number are they accoutnable? But then it gets into what does IQ mean? How does it related to one's ability to be responsible for one's choices?

    What if I ask someone who is "mentally ill". Then you get into the gray area of what is their mental illness? was it being treated? what is their history? etc.

    This is the world we live in. A very complex one where no laws can ever cover all possible cases. At best laws can cover common cases reasonably well, and then it starts moving into the area of increasing levels of fuzziness. It doesn't mean the courts won't come up with a ruling, but the ruling doesn't mean that is truth either. It just means that group of people will or will rely upon the logic that prevailed in the court or in the past. In different times, under different people, a different ruling could be agreed on.

    So bottom line for me, it's not a black or white case, so any court decision that is reasonable is fine, but I don't think there is an absolute truth to be found in this case.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: man charged with murder for wife's suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by LilyLove View Post
    So if you tell someone to go kill someone else, what do you get charged with, if anything? Anyone know?
    If the person agrees, then conspiracy.

  4. #29
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: man charged with murder for wife's suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by xdamage View Post
    If I tell the average person to commit a crime, the average person can/would say no, and be held majority accountable if they agree. If I hand them an instrument by which to commit the crime, it doesn't alter their accountability. They can't say, "well he handed me a tool to make it easier to commit the crime so I am less accountable for my choice"
    The fact that their accountability still exists wouldn't alter your accountability. You would be a party to that crime, and subject (in many places) to the same penalty. The victim's accountability is not in question; the question is whether he has accountability, not whether she does not. Crimes aren't exclusionary that way - more than one person can be responsible for the same act.

    In your examples, their accountability would be determined by what intent they were capable of forming, and yours would be determined by what intent you were capable of forming.
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    Default Re: man charged with murder for wife's suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    The fact that their accountability still exists wouldn't alter your accountability. You would be a party to that crime, and subject (in many places) to the same penalty. The victim's accountability is not in question; the question is whether he has accountability, not whether she does not. Crimes aren't exclusionary that way - more than one person can be responsible for the same act.

    In your examples, their accountability would be determined by what intent they were capable of forming, and yours would be determined by what intent you were capable of forming.
    Oh yes, absolutely agreed. I wasn't making an all or nothing argument regarding accountability. I was just trying to show two points...

    1.) If a person participates in a decision when asked to commit a crime they are usually accountable, and that handing someone a tool to commit a crime does not decrease the second person's accountability in the usual case. They can't say, "well you handed me a tool I could use to commit the crime so I am less accountable for my decision". In this case that point corresponds to him handing her a gun while telling her to commit a crime (i.e., in this case, the crime of suicide).

    2.) How accountable the second person is depends on their mental competence which is often fuzzy. In this case that point corresponds to the question of her mental competence. Of course there is also the question of his mental competence. If I turned the examples around, and an incompetent person advised a competent one to commit a crime, the accountability would be skewed the other way around.

    But if they are both accountable, and both equally competent or equally incompetent, then it seems to me what they are both accountable for is committing the crime of suicide not a murder (i.e., she participated with him in killing herself, he did not kill her while she fought him off or was unaware).

    Put another way while her accountability is not in question, her competence to make decisions will be questioned. So will his. People kill themselves often. We call it suicide, not murder. We don't hold everyone in their lives who did them wrong directly accountable for it. We still expect the average adult to protect their own life, no matter if others treat them poorly or taunt them in jest or seriousness.

    But even so... it is fuzzy to me. For example, if it can be shown he was of sound mind, that he methodically planned to damage her mental health with the intent that she ultimately kill herself, I could be convinced it was a form of planned murder. If it was unplanned, and a typical fight, him being no more or less competent then the average person in a fight, I'd lean towards it being a suicide.
    Last edited by xdamage; 08-14-2008 at 11:48 AM.

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    Default Re: man charged with murder for wife's suicide

    By the way an interesting parallel question...

    A person is standing on a roof threatening to commit a suicide.

    A crowd gathers.

    Some of the crowd yell "jump jump".

    He/She jumps.

    Did the crowd commit a murder or did he commit a suicide?

    And historically have they been charged with murder?
    Last edited by xdamage; 08-14-2008 at 03:13 PM.

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    Default Re: man charged with murder for wife's suicide

    I don't know about legal culpability, although there must be something that would legally punish suck recklessness.

    I do think he's morally to blame for her death. She might have just been throwing out threats, but once he put the gun in her hand, she was so out of it, she may have just shot herself to call his bluff and prove him wrong/ whatever. That's how people can be in a fit of rage. Also, whoever said she'd of killed herself anyway, I think that's pretty unlikely. There's a huge difference between searching out a gun and shooting yourself, versus taking one that's put in your hand when someone says 'yeah, go ahead'. It's like 'fine, fuck you!!!' Know what I'm saying?

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    Default Re: man charged with murder for wife's suicide

    Hello ofcourse he's guilty. Who buys that story that she shoot herself becuz she was drunk. I've been drunk alot and never had the desire to kill myself over it. Maybe if he forced her hand sounds more real. Fact is he is the 1 she fought with and the 1 who orginally had the the murder weapon loaded with no safety on why would any1 believe his lame cover story. Sorry, but she isn't here to agrue in her self defense.

    I seriously hope no1 shoots any of you and gets off by saying they just handed you the gun and you did all the work . Even if she shoot herself which I don't buy then he is an idiot that wanted his drunk wife dead. I wouldn't hand a child or any1 else out of thier minds a gun and then tell them to shoot themselves. It's morally wronge what he did and is it legal to help some1 commit suicide period.

    If I was her I would have shoot him in the balls.
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  9. #34
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    Default Re: man charged with murder for wife's suicide

    Quote Originally Posted by mollyzmoon View Post
    I don't know about legal culpability, although there must be something that would legally punish suck recklessness.

    I do think he's morally to blame for her death. She might have just been throwing out threats, but once he put the gun in her hand, she was so out of it, she may have just shot herself to call his bluff and prove him wrong/ whatever. That's how people can be in a fit of rage. Also, whoever said she'd of killed herself anyway, I think that's pretty unlikely. There's a huge difference between searching out a gun and shooting yourself, versus taking one that's put in your hand when someone says 'yeah, go ahead'. It's like 'fine, fuck you!!!' Know what I'm saying?
    I see it from multiple POVs including this one.

    Still there is an old saying about "If someone told you to jump off a cliff would you do it?" The correct answer is of course, "no".

    The problem is here is a case where alcohol was involved, and strong emotions. According to the article, she was drunk. and he was drunk. Under the influence she jumped, and he told her to do so. If we rewind time a bit, both started out by making bad choices to get drunk. Both then made bad choices getting into a fight, while under the influence. And so it all goes down hill.

    To me then this is a case where I think I'm fine with he is responsible to a degree, and she was too.

    But still it is unclear to me that this is murder or a suicide or a maybe a new term is needed?

    Law isn't like science to me. Scientists have to find truths that cross cultural boundaries, and in theory stand the test of time indefinitely. Law makers do not. Laws vary from culture to culture, even state to state in the USA, and vary over time. The common person's opinion of "fair" and what law makers in a locale think is fair can often be at great odds.

    This may well be a case that simply cannot fit into the black and white definitions of "murder" or "suicide" but is a bit of both. Hmmm...

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