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Thread: 'appeasers' take note ... the fruit of a 'negotiated' peace agreement

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    Default 'appeasers' take note ... the fruit of a 'negotiated' peace agreement

    (snip)"Russian forces still entrenched in Georgia

    Aug 16, 10:48 PM (ET)

    By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA

    (AP) Russian armored vehicles move in Orjosani, between the capital Tbilisi and strategic town of Gori,...


    IGOETI, Georgia (AP) - Russian forces built ramparts around tanks and posted sentries on a hill in central Georgia on Saturday, digging in despite Western pressure for Moscow to withdraw its forces under a cease-fire deal signed by Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.

    The United States and France said it appeared Russia was defying the truce already. Russian troops still controlled two Georgian cities and the key east-west highway between them Saturday, cities well outside the breakaway provinces where earlier fighting was focused.

    "From my point of view - and I am in contact with the French - the Russians are perhaps already not honoring their word," U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said.

    Russia's foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, said Medvedev had signed the cease-fire deal and ordered its implementation, but would not withdraw troops until Moscow is satisfied that security measures allowed under the agreement are effective. He said Russia would strengthen its peacekeeping contingent in South Ossetia, the separatist Georgian region at the center of more than a week of warfare that sharply soured relations between Moscow and the West.

    Asked how much time it would take, he responded: "As much as is needed."

    President Bush warned Russia Saturday that it cannot lay claim to the two separatist regions in U.S.-backed Georgia even though their sympathies lie with Moscow. "There is no room for debate on this matter," the president, with Rice, told reporters at his Texas ranch.

    Later Saturday, Georgia's Foreign Ministry accused Russian army units and separatist fighters in one of the regions, Abkhazia, of taking over 13 villages and the Inguri hydropower plant, shifting the border of the Black sea province toward the Inguri River.

    Abkhaz officials could not immediately be reached for comment on the late-night claim, and there was no information on whether the seizure involved violence.

    The villages and plant are in a U.N.-established buffer zone on Abkhazia's edge, and it appeared that the separatists were bolstering their control over the zone after Russian-backed fighters forced Georgians out of their last stronghold in Abkhazia earlier this week.

    The tense peace pact in Georgia, a U.S. ally that has emerged as a proxy for conflict between an emboldened Russia and the West, calls for both Russian and Georgian forces to pull back to positions they held before fighting erupted Aug. 7 in the other breakaway province, South Ossetia in central Georgia.

    But freshly dug positions of Russian armor in the town of Igoeti, about 30 miles west of the capital Tbilisi, showed that Russia was observing the truce at the pace and scope of its choosing.

    Rice noted that the text of the cease-fire agreement, negotiated by French President Nicolas Sarkozy, the current leader of the European Union, outlined a very limited mandate only for Russian peacekeepers who were in Georgia at the time hostilities escalated. She said the agreement specifies that these initial peacekeepers can have limited patrols in a prescribed area within the conflict zone and would not be allowed to go into Georgian urban areas or tie up a cross-country highway.

    According to Rice, Medvedev told Sarkozy that the minute the Georgian president signed the cease-fire agreement, Russian forces would begin to withdraw.

    Sarkozy said Saturday that the truce explicitly bars Russian troops from Gori or "any major urban area" of Georgia.

    Earlier Saturday, Russian forces dug shallow foxholes in the middle of Igoeti and parked tanks, one flying a Russian flag, along the road. In the afternoon, they withdrew from those positions to the town's western outskirts. There, they set up defensive positions with tank cannons pointed back toward Georgian-held territory, where police and soldiers milled about, awaiting Russia's next move.

    West of Igoeti, Russian troops were deployed in large numbers in and around the strategic city of Gori, which endured an intense Russian bombardment during the fighting that began when Georgia attacked its breakaway region of South Ossetia. Military vehicles on the side of the road were camouflaged with branches; a couple of soldiers slept on stretchers in the shade of the hulking machines.

    Russian troops effectively control the main artery running through the western half of Georgia, because they surround the strategic central city of Gori and the city and air base of Senaki in the west. Both cities sit on the main east-west highway that slices through two Georgian mountain ranges.

    Controlling Senaki, which sits on a key intersection, also means the Russians control access to the Black Sea port city of Poti and the road north to Abkhazia. AP reporters have seen Russian troops there for days but noted a growing contingent Saturday and artillery guns and tanks pointed out from the city, which they appear to be using as a base for their sorties elsewhere in western Georgia.

    An Associated Press Television News team saw Russian soldiers pulling out of the Black Sea port of Poti Saturday after sinking Georgian naval vessels and ransacking the port. A picture of Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili in the looted office of the Navy and Coast Guard had been vandalized, with the face scratched out.

    "They have robbed the military base and taken almost everything, and they have burned or sunk the stuff they could not carry," port worker Zurab Simonia said."(snip)

    (snip)"Even if Russian forces do withdraw from the rest of Georgia, Moscow appears likely to maintain strong control over South Ossetia. Lavrov said Thursday that Georgia can "forget about" South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which broke from Georgian government control in early 1990s wars, and their future status is shaping up as a potentially explosive source of tension.

    In Texas, Bush said, "A major issue is Russia's contention that the regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia may not be a part of Georgia's future. These regions are a part of Georgia and the international community has repeatedly made clear that they will remain so."(snip)

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    Default Re: 'appeasers' take note ... the fruit of a 'negotiated' peace agreement

    and since it is turning out to be so 'easy' to simply disregard the troop withdrawl requirements of the Georgian 'peace' agreement ...



    (snip)"Russia’s new nuclear challenge to Europe

    Russia is considering arming its Baltic fleet with nuclear warheads for the first time since the cold war, senior military sources warned last night.

    The move, in response to American plans for a missile defence shield in Europe, would heighten tensions raised by the advance of Russian forces to within 20 miles of Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, yesterday.

    Under the Russian plans, nuclear warheads could be supplied to submarines, cruisers and fighter bombers of the Baltic fleet based in Kaliningrad, a Russian enclave between the European Union countries of Poland and Lithuania. A senior military source in Moscow said the fleet had suffered from underfunding since the collapse of communism. “That will change now,” said the source.

    “In view of America’s determination to set up a missile defence shield in Europe, the military is reviewing all its plans to give Washington an adequate response.”

    The proposal to bring back nuclear warheads was condemned by Kurt Volker, the US ambassador to Nato, who said he knew of the threat.

    “It is really unfortunate that Russia chooses to react by putting nuclear warheads in different places – if indeed it does that – when the rest of the world is not looking at some kind of old-fashioned superpower conflict,” he said.

    The warnings came 24 hours after Russia told Poland that it could face a nuclear strike for agreeing to let the United States station components of the missile defence shield on its soil.

    The Russian military also said it would ignore attempts to restrict the movement of its Black Sea fleet in and out of Sebastopol, in Ukraine. The Crimean port was emerging as a potential flashpoint in Russia’s efforts to prevent former Soviet countries on its borders from joining Nato.

    This weekend Ukraine further angered Russian officials by offering to create a joint missile defence network with western countries.

    The Russians have already indicated that they may point nuclear missiles at western Europe from bases in Kaliningrad and Belarus. They are also said to be thinking of reviving a military presence in Cuba.

    In Georgia, Russian forces extended their reach across the west of the country yesterday, occupying several towns, seizing control of a main road and blowing up a railway bridge. Working with Abkhazian fighters they seized several Georgian villages and the Enguri power station. They pulled out of Igoeti, a village near the capital, after President Dmitry Medvedev signed a ceasefire agreement. The deal gave the Russians the right to continue patrolling “a few miles” inside Georgia. President George W Bush called the signing a “hopeful step”. "(snip)

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    Default Re: 'appeasers' take note ... the fruit of a 'negotiated' peace agreement

    Are you suggesting that we send in troops?

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    Default Re: 'appeasers' take note ... the fruit of a 'negotiated' peace agreement

    well, it was the French that negotiated this deal. But it was also the French that had allied themselves with Czechoslovakia prior to the Sudatenland invasion by the Germans in 1938, and did nothing to defend Czech sovereignty !

    Going back to a Sudatenland analogy, the 'tin foil hat' crowd will tell you that in much the same way as in 1938, failure of the West to stand behind democratic allies like Georgia and Ukraine this year is likely to lead to far worse developments next year ...

    (snip)"The Sudatenland was important to the Czechs for two reasons: the mountains were a natural defense against German aggression, and most of their manmade fortifications were located there. If the Sudatenland were to fall, the whole of Czechoslovakia would be open to German occupation. Also in the region were most of the Czech coal, electric, and iron and steel works.

    Against the guarantee of Czech border integrity by her geography, they also entered into a treaty with the French to protect them against any aggressors. French had signed this treaty after World War I to actualize the new political map of Europe.

    In the summer of 1938, the Nazis had an experienced political and paramilitary organization set up [within the Sudaten region of Czechoslovakia - sic] to ferment pro-Nazi dissent and smash their opposition. Nazi sympathizers, Czech and German, began to enter Czechoslovakia and the Sudatenland to fight with Communists, Social Democrats, and Socialists, their traditional enemies, and to focus attention on the supposed plight of the ethnic Germans. Most of these ethnic Germans did not want to be part of Germany, and many did not even speak German.

    After street battles like those of Hitler’s rise to power and Austrian Anschluss, Hitler demanded the Sudatenland from Czechoslovakian President Eduard Benes. Benes turned to Britain for help, especially to Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain.

    Chamberlain was a man who did not comprehend the circumstances in which he lived. The world was changing far more rapidly than he could handle. He knew that Britain did not possess the arms to fight a renewed German Wehrmacht. He sought to appease Hitler, and flew to Munich on September 29 to discuss the Czechoslovakian crisis. Also joining the discussion was Italian Duce Benito Mussolini and French Premier Édouard Daladier. Benes was not present, nor any Czech representative.

    Chamberlain essentially sacrificed Czechoslovakia on the altar of appeasement. In exchange for the Sudatenland, Hitler promised to guarantee the new Czech borders. Eduard Benes immediately resigned, and Czechoslovakia would not be guaranteed. Parts of the country were broken off by Poland and Hungary, and on March 15, 1939, German troops entered Prague. Czechoslovakia ceased to exist. "(snip)

    from


    as to what course of action I would advocate personally for the US ... hmmm ... turning the Israelis loose to attack Iran would probably send the Russians the correct message in terms the Russians would actually pay attention to. Short of that, sending two or three US carrier groups up into the Black Sea would send somewhat of a message as well. Hmmm, by sheer coincidence two 'extra' US carrier battle groups were already underway in that general direction !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-17-2008 at 11:33 AM.

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    Default Re: 'appeasers' take note ... the fruit of a 'negotiated' peace agreement

    Obviously this is George Bush's fault.


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    Default Re: 'appeasers' take note ... the fruit of a 'negotiated' peace agreement

    To me it is pretty clear that Putin

    - knows our military is stretched thin

    - is confident eye ball to eye ball the EU won't jeopardize their gas and oil

    - is likely a student of history himself and laughs how the vast majority of Americans have no idea what you are talking about when you talk about the run up to WW2. They don't teach much history in public schools anymore.

    To me it is very serious. He has the 1938 play book in hand.

    FBR
    Once again I have embraced my addiction and have put off the moral dilemma to another day.

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    Default Re: 'appeasers' take note ... the fruit of a 'negotiated' peace agreement

    To me it is very serious. He has the 1938 play book in hand.
    It would seem so. I would also add that Putin has a limited window of opportunity to act in regard to reestablishing 'satellite nation' control over the Ukraine, Georgia, etc. due to the strong possibility of future NATO membership. He has already 'lost' the Balkans etc.

    (snip)"On 29 March 2004, Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia formally became members of NATO by depositing their instruments of accession with the United States Government.

    At 1:00 pm local time, the Prime Ministers of the seven countries handed over their instruments of accession to the North Atlantic Treaty to US Secretary of State Colin Powell, who accepted them on behalf of the United States, which is the depository nation for the Treaty."(snip)


    Of course it ultimately remains to be seen whether or not the 'big players' in NATO would actually commit their total military resources to defend any of these new NATO members against the Russians. And with Putin's iron fist now firmly on the pipeline valves feeding oil and natural gas to Germany, France etc. as a result of the Georgian 'invasion' - an iron fist that would not hesitate to shut off those valves if it were in Russia's interest to do so - fulfilling their NATO responsibilities in the event of, say, a Russian reoccupation of the Balkans could have an immediate and devastating effect on Germany, France etc.

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