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    Default quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    Obama: "Just Tax the Heck Out of People" [Mark Hemingway]


    Buried in that 8,000 (!) word NYT magazine article about Obama's economic plan that I mentioned yesterday, is this bit flagged by Geraghty at Campaign Spot:

    “If you talk to Warren [Buffet], he’ll tell you his preference is not to meddle in the economy at all — let the market work, however way it’s going to work, and then just tax the heck out of people at the end and just redistribute it,” Obama said. “That way you’re not impeding efficiency, and you’re achieving equity on the back end.” He continued by saying that he thought there was some merit in Buffett’s argument.

    To which, Geraghty responds: "Isn't it reassuring to have a presidential candidate saying he sees some merit in 'taxing the heck' out of something?" Indeed. Expect the McCain camp to start running "Just tax the heck out of people" ads very soon.

    from

    entire interview in New York Times magazine ...
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-22-2008 at 02:55 PM.

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    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    So it's one guy referring to what Obama would hypothetically attribute to yet another guy? Isn't that a stretch for an "Obama quote"? Or did I read that wrong?

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    sounds like a stretch to me.

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    me too. biiiig stretch!

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    Winning elections is all about misleading as many people as possible so I have no doubt we'll be seeing those ads soon.

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    Wow, Mel, I mean, get the friggin quote from Buffet. hell watch the 60 minute piece where he feels that he (and other rich americans) isn't(aren't) taxed enough.

    The example he used is that his secretary is taxed on 1/3 of her income, he is taxed on say, 1/25th of his income, and he doesn't feel that is right.

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    Quote Originally Posted by G-Real View Post
    Wow, Mel, I mean, get the friggin quote from Buffet. hell watch the 60 minute piece where he feels that he (and other rich americans) isn't(aren't) taxed enough.

    The example he used is that his secretary is taxed on 1/3 of her income, he is taxed on say, 1/25th of his income, and he doesn't feel that is right.
    And I am sure he and Michelle will give up all the tax shelters suggested by his accountants. Even though his large income affords opportunities to work the loop holes, no doubt he wants to pay the same tax rates as us regular folks. Indeed, he is the Messiah. I am getting a chill up my leg from his benevolence.

    FBR
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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    Well, I think it sucks what is going to happen in terms of class warfare when Obama and his crew come into town.

    On the other hand, there has been a lot of "fuck the middle class" being said by a lot of these over paid CEO types and their churn and burn mega-corps. Trickle down theory has been proven as BULLSHIT if you ask me.

    We need to focus more on the CREATE VALUE theory that employees and such should be getting paid. I am sickened when I hear things like "revenue/profit $550,000 per employee" and then hearing about them getting fucked over for some H-1B or illegal immigrant or going over seas to someone paid $10.00 a day. CREATE VALUE means that you should get a portion of that value instead of labor arbitrage with impoverished nations.

    Now I know some people (one in particular ) are going to say such things exist such as stock options and stock sharing. I retort look at Enron where employees are not allowed to sell their shares while C-level management is dumping like an elephant leaving a shit. Or even more so "stock options" where people don't make enough money to even take advantage of the option and then because of the option end up being taxed like a millionaire when they are making something like 90K.

    And stripper general is filled with "Where are the customers?" messages just like the realtors wonder "Where are the buyers?" these days. We have been dismantling jobs and opportunity in this country for twenty eight years and it is time to pay the piper - who has been tacking on interest and late fees.

    I just hope the small (and heck even middle sized) companies and entrepreneurs aren't fucked over in the stampede.

    This is a useless hope though, because while those in Congress like to talk about the elite rich - there are few who are NOT multi-millionaires or connected to multi-millionaires working there. They won't fuck themselves.

    And when Warren Buffet says he doesn't pay enough taxes - I have never heard him say just what the parameters were for people "like" him (after all he is one of the richest men in the world) to be identified as not paying enough taxes.

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    Well, I think it sucks what is going to happen in terms of class warfare when Obama and his crew come into town.
    This is a useless hope though, because while those in Congress like to talk about the elite rich - there are few who are NOT multi-millionaires or connected to multi-millionaires working there. They won't fuck themselves.

    This of course is the 'dirty little secret' of the Democratic party ... who draw very blatant support from 'poor' Americans who personally benefit from generous social welfare programs / low income tax credits ... but who also draw tons of 'stealth' support from 'very rich' Americans who personally benefit from a plethora of tax loopholes / tax exempt investments / investor production tax credits / anonymous offshore investments etc.

    Thus when Obama's administration takes over and raises 'official' tax rates, the 'very rich' will STILL wind up paying very little in the way of additional taxes. And with promises made in terms of providing more generous benefits to the American 'poor', it will indeed be the US 'middle class' that will wind up having to pick up the lion's share of the tab.

    Please understand that my 'complaint' isn't about Obama's tax increase per se ... instead it is about the hypocracy of claiming to increase taxes on the 'very rich' while not actually receiving anywhere near the projected amounts of additional tax revenue due to the continued existance of tax exempt investments / tax favored investments / production tax credits for certain industries etc. as well as anonymous offshore investment opportunities. Even that wouldn't necessarily be a problem if Obama wasn't also proposing massive gov't spending increases on social welfare programs and other programs targeted to benefit 'poor' Americans. But the combination of greatly increased gov't spending in combination with little or no additional tax revenues coming from the 'very rich' only leaves Obama's administration two choices ... break their promises to the 'poor' in regard to increased benefits, or raise taxes significantly on the 'middle class' in order to fund those increased benefits. As the vast majority of 'poor' Americans support Obama, and a majority of 'middle class' Americans do not, it's not difficult to guess what direction will be chosen !

    As others have pointed out, with rare exceptions the vast majority of strip club customers are neither 'poor' nor 'very rich'. The same point applies to a huge swath of American businesses i.e. General Motors, JC Penneys, Starbucks, Maytag, Pulte Homes ... the list is almost endless. So Obama's economic policies might be good for the Penthouse Executive Club and for hole-in-the-wall clubs in the same way they will be good for Maserati and Kia, for Hammacher-Schlemmer and WalMart, for Bosch and LG etc. Unfortunately, most clubs fall somewhere in the middle, as does the future income potential of most dancers - a point that also applies to General Motors, JC Penneys, Maytag etc. and the future income potential of their employees.

    As others have NOT pointed out, if Obama's administration preserves the 'stealth' tax avoidance opportunities for the 'very rich' - which he undoubtedly will since both his core of big dollar political supporters and the vast majority of the US congress fall into the 'very rich' category - in conjunction with increasing gov't benefits for the 'poor' - this will lead to a 'typical' socialist economy situation where America's classic mobility between income groups becomes lost. The 'poor' will have little incentive to work their asses off to try and become 'middle class', since the equivalent dollar value of their lost social welfare benefits cannot be recouped by the after-tax incomes and private sector benefits available from remaining low skill or semi-skilled American jobs. The 'middle class' will also have little incentive to work their asses off to try and become 'rich', and particularly so if the Social Security tax cap plus progressive income tax rates are adjusted such that all income over $250k or whatever is subject to a greater than 50% de-facto tax rate. Of course if you are already 'very rich' you can easily stay 'very rich' thanks to tax favored investments and loopholes Obama will preserve. Thus, in a nutshell, the 'rich' will stay rich, the 'poor' will stay poor, and the 'middle class' will become poorer !


    The example he used is that his secretary is taxed on 1/3 of her income, he is taxed on say, 1/25th of his income, and he doesn't feel that is right.
    Obviously I was aware of the original Buffet quote as well as the context in which the original statement was made (or at least the context that Buffet wished to create for public consumption). But Obama's choice of repeating that quote during the NY Times interview took place in an entirely different context ... one in which his future plans for the 'redistribution of income' played a major role !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-23-2008 at 06:57 AM.

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    This of course is the 'dirty little secret' of the Democratic party ... who draw very blatant support from 'poor' Americans who personally benefit from generous social welfare programs / low income tax credits ... but who also draw tons of 'stealth' support from 'very rich' Americans who personally benefit from a plethora of tax loopholes / tax exempt investments / investor production tax credits / anonymous offshore investments etc.
    ^^^so I guess it's much better to vote for a party that make no secret of their disdain for the middle class and is very straight forward about the fact that all of their tax policies are going to benefit primarily those at the very top. No 'dirty little secret' there. At least you know what you're getting that way huh?

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    ^^^ believe it or not I agree with your cynical position. I have made no bones about my opinion that GWB and the 'spend'-publicans in congress haven't done any huge favors for the 'middle class' by creating a new social welfare program, borrowing and spending. IMHO it has been over 50 years since America had a gov't which was truly fiscally conservative ... something that we're never likely to see again.

    However, your economic contention that cutting the tax burden on the 'very rich' is inherently bad for the middle class invites disagreement. History shows that it is the 'very rich' that typically take the risk of starting / expanding new businesses, which in turn provides an increase in real 'wealth' as well as employment for the middle class and 'poor' alike. History also shows that when tax rates are jacked sky high on the 'very rich', instead of taking risks of starting / expanding new businesses (with fully taxable incomes), the 'very rich' instead tend to shift their capital into tax favored investments like muni bonds or certain gov't subsidized industries that offer production tax credits (like ethanol or solar) or toward offshore opportunities. None of these tax oriented investment redirections provide a whole lot of new American 'wealth' creation, nor do they help American middle class employment opportunities (albeit they may help employment opportunities in China / Vietnam / Mexico). Even revered Democratic president JFK would tell you this !

    In fact, it is arguable that the vicious cycle of muni bonds is the ultimate microcosm of democratic policies. The gov't borrows money via the sale of muni bonds in order to pay for providing social welfare benefits to the 'poor'. The middle class and rich are taxed more heavily in order to make interest payments and principal payments on the muni bonds. But the rich, who bought the muni bonds from the government, can then pocket the tax free interest earnings paid to them and thus escape the effect of the tax increase. Thus it is only middle class taxpayers who cannot afford to invest in muni bonds with $50k-$100k minimum price tags, and rich taxpayers whose accountants failed to steer them towards muni bond purchases, that actually wind up paying the tab.

    .
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-23-2008 at 08:20 AM.

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    ^^^what history are you referring to? where is the trickling down?

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    in case you have 'forgotten', the Kennedy tax cuts correspond to 1964+ data, the Reagan tax cuts correspond to 1983+ data, data, and the GWB tax cuts correspond with 2003+ data

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    Yeah, yeah, I know we're all a bunch of whiners. Here's a few snips for you.

    (snip)
    "The government delivered a triple dose of bad news for consumers Thursday that roughly added up to this: If your wallet seems thinner than it used to be, it's not your imagination."

    (snip)
    "Consider the numbers the government released Thursday. Consumer prices surged 0.8% in July from the month before and chalked up a 12-month inflation rate of 5.6%, the Labor Department said Thursday.

    That's the highest rate of annual inflation since 1991. At the same time, workers' earnings are shrinking.

    The department said workers' average earnings, adjusted for inflation, fell 3.1% in July from a year earlier. Real earnings have declined for 10 straight months, government data show.

    "The last time we saw a decline like this was in the recession of 1991," said Nigel Gault, chief U.S. economist at Global Insight, an economic forecasting firm in Lexington, Mass. "
    ***Wasn't that right after the Reagan tax cuts BTW???***

    (snip)
    "Meanwhile, the job outlook is cloudy. Unemployment hit a four-year high of 5.7% in July and signs are accumulating that August may be worse.

    New claims for unemployment insurance are on the rise, reaching 460,000 last week and 450,000 this week, the Labor Department reported Thursday. Both were well above recent averages.

    Continuing unemployment claims have hit 3.4 million -- the highest level since late 2003, said Gary Bigg, an economist with Bank of America in New York. That "indicates that jobs remain hard to find and that labor demand is soft," Bigg said. "

    Here's the full story if you're interested.

    So when does the trickling start?

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    "The last time we saw a decline like this was in the recession of 1991," said Nigel Gault, chief U.S. economist at Global Insight, an economic forecasting firm in Lexington, Mass. "
    ***Wasn't that right after the Reagan tax cuts BTW???***
    ... actually, no ... it was right after Bush41 and a democratic congress supposedly reached a bi-partisan budget compromise, where GHWB would raise taxes in exchange for spending cuts by congressional democrats. Well, the tax increases took place but the spending cuts did not, prolonging the cyclic recession !


    (snip)" The most outstanding policy differences between the two recoveries are in the realm of tax policy. Reagan instituted across-the-board reductions in tax rates, while Bush and Clinton both pushed massive tax increases. The most disturbing conclusion is that the 1990 and 1993 tax increases have cost Americans far more than the extra earnings collected by the IRS; they have cost the economy at least two years of growth. Comparing the two recoveries:

    Real GDP grew more in five years under Reagan (23 percent cumulative growth) than it is projected to grow in seven years under Bush/Clinton (21 percent cumulative growth).

    After four years, 4 million more jobs were created under Reagan than under Bush/Clinton.

    Federal revenues, adjusted for inflation, grew much faster under Reagan (33 percent cumulative growth) than projected under Bush/Clinton (20 percent cumulative growth).

    Real per capita disposable income grew more in two years under Reagan than in all four years combined thus far in the Bush/Clinton recovery (8.2 percent versus 7.8 percent).

    Median family income grew in all of the first three recovery years under Reagan, compared to three consecutive declines under Bush/Clinton.

    In other words, during the economic expansion following Reagan's tax cuts, the economy grew faster, experienced stronger revenue growth, created more jobs, and saw more rapid income growth than the current expansion under the high tax policies of Presidents Bush and Clinton.

    Economic Growth Spurred by Tax Cuts, Slowed by Tax Increases

    Nothing illustrates the negative effect of tax increases as well as comparing economic growth following Reagan's 1981 tax cuts and the tax increases in 1990 and 1993. Both the tax cuts and the tax increases had profound effects on the subsequent economic recoveries, which began in 1982 and 1991, respectively. To assess the magnitude of such effects, Figure 1 compares the cumulative percentage growth in real GDP from the low-point of each recession. Comparing the cumulative real GDP growth experienced in the 1980s and 1990s, it is evident that Reagan's tax cuts led to a strong, healthy recovery, with GDP growing 29 percent in just 7 years.[2] Over the same time span following the Bush/Clinton tax increases, real GDP is expected to increase only 21 percent.[3] In fact, the economy after Reagan's tax cuts grew more in 5 years than the Bush/Clinton recovery will in 7 years. In other words, the burden of tax increases on the economy has "cost" the American economy 2 years of growth.

    To put the consequences of slow growth in perspective, consider what would have happened had the current recovery matched the Reagan recovery. Real GDP is expected to be $7.2 trillion in 1998. If the economic expansion that began in 1991 were to match the growth under Reagan, real GDP would be $500 billion higher in 1998 and $2.8 trillion higher over 1992-98. Real GDP "lost" to slow growth would amount to over $7,300 per American family of four in 1998.

    Job Creation Falters Under Bush/Clinton Tax Increases

    The effects of higher taxes and increased government regulation have been painfully felt by working Americans, particularly those who have not been able to find jobs. Just one year after emerging from the recession, employment grew 3.5 percent under Reagan. [4] At the same point in the current recovery, employment actually fell 0.2 percent. Under the Bush/Clinton recovery, 7.5 million jobs have been created in the past four years (Figure 2). While this may seem substantial, it pales in comparison to the 11.5 million jobs created in the first four years of the Reagan recovery. "(snip)

    from the 1995 report

  16. #16
    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Median family income grew in all of the first three recovery years under Reagan, compared to three consecutive declines under Bush/Clinton.
    That's not how I remember it. Is this graph wrong, then?



    In other words, during the economic expansion following Reagan's tax cuts, the economy grew faster, experienced stronger revenue growth, created more jobs, and saw more rapid income growth than the current expansion under the high tax policies of Presidents Bush and Clinton.
    I remember those years being pretty good, too. It was also during a Democratic Congress and an enormous federal deficit. So are those things good, too?

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    ^^^ your graph is probably not scaled in 'real' dollars ... and thus shows an apparent increase even though the rate of inflation cancelled out that increase and then some ...



    failing to adjust for loss of US dollar purchasing power is a convenient 'trick' used by the realtors that prepared your graph, by stockbrokers, and by many others who wish to show an uptrend where none actually exists. For example ...


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    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    Why is it called "Bush/Clinton recovery" in 1992 when Clinton didn't take office until 1993? Even calling 1993 a "Clinton recovery year" would be a bit harsh. He signed a mixed tax cut bill in mid-1993. NAFTA didn't even get ratified until 1994 (and that was with strong Republican support).

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    ^^^ because the congressional report was comparing four years worth of economic aftermath following the depth of each recession. In Reagan's case he remained in office for that entire period. In Clinton's case he came into office 2 years after the recovery was already underway with George Bush Sr. in the oval office.

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    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    But earlier, that "recovery" time was set forth as three consecutive declines (one of those declines apparently being attributed to Clinton before he was President).

    I'm getting the strong feeling of cherry-picking and arbitrary labeling of years and attributes. Not that both sides don't do that anyway. They do.

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno View Post
    But earlier, that "recovery" time was set forth as three consecutive declines (one of those declines apparently being attributed to Clinton before he was President).

    I'm getting the strong feeling of cherry-picking and arbitrary labeling of years and attributes. Not that both sides don't do that anyway. They do.
    Welcome to looking through the rose-tintied glasses 101.....

    Nothing the opposition has done has been right, ever.....the opposition could find the cure for cancer, aids, feed the world's poor, etc etc.....but someone will always say they were wrong, or it was the previous administrations doing.....

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Zeno View Post
    That's not how I remember it. Is this graph wrong, then?



    I remember those years being pretty good, too. It was also during a Democratic Congress and an enormous federal deficit. So are those things good, too?
    Using NAR data is about as reliable as using World Weekly News analysis

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    Jay Zeno
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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    I don't know NAR from NRA. If the graph's wrong, it's wrong, and I'm willing to be corrected. Like if I'd implied 1992 was a "Clinton year."

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Head View Post
    Yeah, yeah, I know we're all a bunch of whiners. Here's a few snips for you.

    (snip)
    "The government delivered a triple dose of bad news for consumers Thursday that roughly added up to this: If your wallet seems thinner than it used to be, it's not your imagination."

    (snip)
    "Consider the numbers the government released Thursday. Consumer prices surged 0.8% in July from the month before and chalked up a 12-month inflation rate of 5.6%, the Labor Department said Thursday.

    That's the highest rate of annual inflation since 1991. At the same time, workers' earnings are shrinking.

    The department said workers' average earnings, adjusted for inflation, fell 3.1% in July from a year earlier. Real earnings have declined for 10 straight months, government data show.

    "The last time we saw a decline like this was in the recession of 1991," said Nigel Gault, chief U.S. economist at Global Insight, an economic forecasting firm in Lexington, Mass. "
    ***Wasn't that right after the Reagan tax cuts BTW???***

    (snip)
    "Meanwhile, the job outlook is cloudy. Unemployment hit a four-year high of 5.7% in July and signs are accumulating that August may be worse.

    New claims for unemployment insurance are on the rise, reaching 460,000 last week and 450,000 this week, the Labor Department reported Thursday. Both were well above recent averages.

    Continuing unemployment claims have hit 3.4 million -- the highest level since late 2003, said Gary Bigg, an economist with Bank of America in New York. That "indicates that jobs remain hard to find and that labor demand is soft," Bigg said. "

    Here's the full story if you're interested.

    So when does the trickling start?
    You must have slept through the last 5 years. I know that you refuse to recognize all the economic growth under Reagan; JFK or even Clinton after the Capital gains tax cuts.

    The current economic mess has a multiplicity of causes and tax cuts are NOT one of them. Reckless spending surely is. So are high energy prices. So is the burst of the housing bubble.
    Btw, didn't the dot.com bubble burst under Clinton and a DEMOCRAT Congress ? Just how do you propose that our gov't control the business cycle ? Or prevent speculative bubbles ?

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    Default Re: quote of the week - 'Just tax the heck out of people'

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    You must have slept through the last 5 years.
    No, I was actually laid off twice under GWB's watch, perhaps you did though if you think GWB's economy is sailing smoothly along.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    The current economic mess has a multiplicity of causes and tax cuts are NOT one of them.
    Nice bit of cherrypicking there, but you have no way of knowing that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Reckless spending surely is. So are high energy prices. So is the burst of the housing bubble.
    No argument here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Btw, didn't the dot.com bubble burst under Clinton and a DEMOCRAT Congress ?
    Not to nitpick, but wasn't Clinton working with a Republican majority at the time???

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