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Thread: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    Quote Originally Posted by kitana View Post
    We will need that 95% tax cut to pay for the $12/gallon gas that we will be facing in the future since he refuses to do anything about it.
    *sigh* while there should be something in the short-term, the short-term for drilling and getting oil out is in 10 years.

    I was thinking, if you were Palin, and you know your stock is on the rise in-general in the Rep. party, would you accept the VP nomination?.

    It an obvious all-or-nothing for McCain. If she declined, she could come back in 4-8 years and have a better case for her to be president.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    ^^^ actually Gov. Palin has stated in TV interviews that the short-term time requirement for producing oil and gas from new wells is only 5 years. The other 5 years is typically spent on environmental lawsuits and permit procedures ... 'unnecessary' delays that CAN be whittled down if the gov't is inclined to do so (as was just the case with Palin's new Alaskan/Canadian gas pipeline law).

    I also agree that, from Palin's standpoint, accepting the VP nomination is a win-win situation with very little downside. In the worst case McCain and Palin get blown out by Obama and Biden. But, she gets a ton of national publicity during this campaign. She then goes back to being Alaska's governor, she racks up a bunch of successes in the oil / gas / energy area, and she can return in 2012 as a major player with major expertise in the oil / gas / energy area that will (under an Obama administration) undoubtedly be a much more serious national problem than it is today.

    In the best case, McCain and Palin win the election, McCain comes down with a William Henry Harrison-like terminal ailment a month after taking office, and Palin winds up sitting in the Oval Office by next March.

    The more I mull this over, the more it would appear that there was very little downside involved for either McCain or Palin by her being named as VP candidate. Of course, this DOES have a strategic downside i.e. if McCain and Palin do win the election there won't be any 2012 repeat of the 'Reagan Revolution' after 4 years worth of unrestrained democratic policies under Obama and democratic congressional majorities.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-30-2008 at 06:21 AM.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    yes your right, damn those pesky enviromental laws, I mean I live in the northeast, where all the poliution from mid-america comes, and rains as acid rain.

    Crops aren't as bountiful as they used to be.....but dammit, to hell with people, lets drill!

    And honestly Mel, this is friggin SICK, I may not agree with McCain on everything but I would never WISH for someone to die.....sreiosuly WTF?

    [quote=Melonie;1686271]In the best case, McCain and Palin win the election, McCain comes down with a William Henry Harrison-like terminal ailment a month after taking office, and Palin winds up sitting in the Oval Office by next March.
    [quote]

    As for the energy crisis, guess what. we've been in a crisis for the last 30 years with the embargo. Also, it is a national security issue, that countries can undermine our ecomony, see Iran, Russia for example.

    Turning away from fossil-fuels will free us the potential economic impacts that the Middl-East and other hostile nations have against us.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    hey I live in the northeast too. At least residents of northeast states have some element of input in regard to the pollution being generated in midwest states that blows over to us (via the federal gov't). However, in a state like California, which has enacted very strict state environmental laws (which have arguably driven out businesses), they now face a situation of pollution generated in China / Asia being blown over to them - to the point where they still can't meet air quality requirements even though they have 'disowned' virtually all polluters in their state. And Californians have no input whatsoever in regard to the fact that some former California businesses are now being allowed to generate 10 times as much pollution at their new facilities in Asia as they used to generate at their former facilities in California. Thus California has sacrificed industries / jobs / tax revenues via their strictest in the nation environmental laws, still arguably has no better air quality, and has little hope of future improvements in air quality, since Chinese industrial polluters are totally beyond the control of California / US gov't regulations. This is the risk of environmental extremism in the absence of common sense.

    As to a William Henry Harrison scenario, I wasn't actively wishing for that to happen. But you can be sure that the Machiavellian political campaign advisors have considered the possibility. After all, McCain is the oldest presidential candidate ever, he has already dealt with cancer. Of course the 'tin foil hat' crowd would tell you that were the nutjob factor is concerned, Obama's life expectancy might not exactly match the actuarial tables.

    As to turning away from fossil fuels, I obviously agree with you in theory. However, this will take decades if not a century to truly be possible. In the meantime, short term 'quasi-solutions' like ethanol are arguably doing more economic harm than good. And short term or long term, the common sense math says that there simply aren't enough fertile US farmland acres available to meet both food needs and fuel needs. If America wants to seriously look at ethanol as a partial fossil fuel substitute, this will mean lifting the tariffs and quotas currently in place and greatly expanding the importation of south american sugar cane based ethanol. McCain has flirted with this idea. However Obama opposes it strongly since the side effect will undoubtedly be the destruction of more south american rain forest acreage to expand sugar cane production, a subject which is close to the hearts of environmental extremists.

    Also agreed in regard to America's increasing vulnerability to unfriendly sources of imported oil - did you catch my 'Who Runs Bartertown' thread about Putin and control of european oil and gas pipelines ? This is a very real possibility in the short term that could arguably impact the European countries far more than America. And Putin is aware that his 'leverage' on the West via control of oil and gas pipelines is inversely proportional to the West's ability to meet their own oil and gas needs from new domestic oil and gas supplies that don't have to flow through his pipelines.

    I happen to agree with Gov. Palin that in the short term there is no substitute for gasoline and diesel fuel to keep America's economy from grinding to a halt. It may take 5 years to drill new oil and gas wells, but it takes 15 years to build new nuclear power plants. It may take 20 years or 30 years or never to improve the efficiency and reduce the cost of solar cells and storage batteries to the point that they offer a practical (non-subsidized) alternative energy source and can power practical (non-subsidized) hybrid-electric vehicles.

    So if America is forced to continue consuming some amount of oil for the next 15-20-30 years, we might as well 'purchase' that underground oil from American states and the US federal gov't rather than purchasing it from Vladimir Putin or Hugo Chavez or Mohammed Almenijad. Like the California comments above, at least if those new oil wells are located within US jurisdiction SOME element of environmental controls can be enforced, as opposed to far more global environmental damage being caused by oil wells in Russia / Iran / Venezuela with zero de-facto environmental controls. Again like the California situation, relocating pollution out of your own back yard is NOT the same thing as reducing pollution ... and particularly so when the amount of pollution that will be generated in somebody else's back yard is 10 times as high !

    And of course there is the MAJOR economic difference of 'reinvesting' the $1.50 royalty payment from every gallon of gasoline sold in America back into America rather than sending that $1.50 offshore to fill the pockets of Putin, Chavez and Almenijad !

    Sarah Palin will potentially serve as a catalyst to start discussing all of these issues in a common sense fashion.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-30-2008 at 07:30 AM.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    As to a William Henry Harrison scenario, I wasn't actively wishing for that to happen.
    Probably best not to phrase it as the "best case," then.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    please don't flame me for this as I am trying to follow the whole process, but know very little about the candidates (I live in the UK always have), but is the basic thing now you either have to decide for the first black president or the first woman Vice president? Having listened to the world news etc it seems to have boiled down to these two things . That seems to be the main focus as it is being reported over here.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    Quote Originally Posted by kitty69 View Post
    please don't flame me for this as I am trying to follow the whole process, but know very little about the candidates (I live in the UK always have), but is the basic thing now you either have to decide for the first black president or the first woman Vice president? Having listened to the world news etc it seems to have boiled down to these two things . That seems to be the main focus as it is being reported over here.
    Well, that is one overview, but it's not that simple.

    Current landscape of American politics runs the spectrum of liberal to conservative. Democrats dominate the liberal side. Republicans dominate the conservative side. Mainstream America is more centrist, probably leaning more toward the conservative side, depending on the issue (that's my observation, not a scientific analysis).

    Obama (born of a white mother, btw) is a liberal Democrat who chose a centrist Democrat for the Vice President candidate.

    McCain is a centrist Republican who chose a conservative female Republican for the Vice President candidate.

    The fact that either a (half)black man or a woman will be either President or Vice President is historic. But the campaign is really more about liberal versus conservative. Since, as noted, the mainstream is more centrist, that makes it interesting and very likely close. Working against the Republicans is that the current conservative Republican Administration is not well thought of by the voting populace.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    Another things I have learned about this is that McCain has only met her once. How do you come to trust someone and feel they would be able to fill your shoes as the leader of the free world after meeting them once? It's just more proof to me that this is a stunt.

    Also here is what my 68 year old yet very hip and politically savvy Mother had to say about McCain VP choice in an email to me last night.

    "Does John McCain really think the women of this country are so stupid? Is this just a political game or a really desperate move? Anyway, as an intelligent female voter, I am insulted and she , Gov. Palin, should be too- to be used like that. I just lost whatever respect I had for John Mccain. God knows we cannot afford to play such games with the future of this country. But there is always that danger, look what voters did in 2004."

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    In theory yes, that's what the VP's duties are as stated by the constituition. In reality, no. Rarely does the VP do either of those things. I knew a woman who's husband had been a pilot on Marine 1 (President's Helicopter) and she talked about one of the VP (I beleive it was Quayle) playing golf every day, even on major holidays. So that shows you what VP's duties are, hell how many days is the Senate even in session?


    So before you insult someones intelligence, maybe you should find out what your talking about, and then go back and ponder their statement again.
    LMFAO! Dan Quayle is hardly a good example. Remember he couldn’t even spell a simple word such as tomato. Quayle was probably encouraged to play golf instead of work as a safety precaution

    Also I wasn’t saying she was a stupid woman just that she openly admitted on national tv that she doesn’t know the first thing about being a VP. I expect that a potential VP should AT LEAST know the technical basics such as presiding over the Senate. But like I said before that is apparently too much to ask from the GOP.
    Last edited by Zia_Abq; 08-30-2008 at 10:47 AM.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    I found this interesting, it's a take by Karl Rove from a couple of weeks ago on the possibility of Obama possibly choosing Virgina Govenor Tim Kaine as a running mate.

    (snip) "Appearing on CBS's Face the Nation less than three weeks ago, for example, Republican strategist Karl Rove singled out Virginia Governor Tim Kaine, who was on Obama's short list.

    "With all due respect again to Governor Kaine, he's been a governor for three years, he's been able but undistinguished," Rove said. Palin has been governor -- of a much, much smaller state -- for less than two years.

    Rove also said: "I don't think people could really name a big, important thing that he's done. He was mayor of the 105th largest city in America." Palin was formerly mayor of a town that must be ranked about 15,000th biggest in America.

    He added, "So if he were to pick Governor Kaine, it would be an intensely political choice where he said, `You know what? I'm really not, first and foremost, concerned with -- is this person capable of being president of the United States?'"

    CBS News summarized Rove's other statements as follows:

    "He expects presumptive Democratic nominee Barack Obama to choose a running mate based on political calculations, not the person's readiness for the job.

    "'I think he's going to make an intensely political choice, not a governing choice,' Rove said. 'He's going to view this through the prism of a candidate, not through the prism of president; that is to say, he's going to pick somebody that he thinks will on the margin help him in a state like Indiana or Missouri or Virginia. He's not going to be thinking big and broad about the responsibilities of president.'"

    http://www.editorandpublisher.com/ea..._id=1003844467

    Cracked me up when he was then seen singing Palin's praises yesterday all over all of the news channels. What a hypocrite.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    CNBC ran an exclusive interview with her last night (in Alaska, I didn't catch the date of the interview itself).

    She is well versed in the oil and gas arena, but is that narrow expertise, albeit a relative and important one, enough to satisfy what the voting public deems as bare minimum requirements for the second seat to the most important job on the planet?

    I'm already tired of her too-oft repeated phrase "hungry markets".

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    Quote Originally Posted by kitana View Post
    the $12/gallon gas that we will be facing in the future since he refuses to do anything about it.
    Come on now, you know that isn’t true. He just doesn’t have an energy plan that you republicans like, that’s all.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    More stuff I'm just now learning about her Gov. Palin.

    She only has a bachelors degree in journalism with a MINOR in politics.

    On top of being CURRENTLY under investigation by an independent investigator hired by the state legislature for abuse of power- last year Palin disagreed with the Board of Agriculture and Conservation controlled Creamery Board, so she fired the entire board and replaced them with members that agreed with her. The company they were in charge of saving went out of business anyway.

    She has said herself that she is not really interested in Iraq. Is that really a mindset we need to be "a heartbeat away" from the top job while we are at war in Iraq?

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    Jay Zeno thanks for that it seems very complicated, I am aware of some of the candidates views on certain issues and kinda understand the whole conservative/liberal/republic/democrat part of it. It just seems that the reporting over here has kinda made it seem like the whole issue really is that simple.
    Over here we have parties running for government with whoever is the leader of the party at that time becoming prime minister (you already know this lol) it just makes me wonder how many Americans actually make informed choices when they vote, when the whole thing is so very complicated. You are also voting in a vice president. This is something we dont really consider (in general) when choosing a leader.
    I find the whole thing really confusing and feel I should take an interest as it seems that decisions made in America often affect England (Iraq war etc)

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    At the moment, America has another situation which doesn't occur in the UK or other parliamentary governments. Our current president is from one political party (McCain's party), and the majority of both of our legislative houses is held by the other party (Obama's party). So while some number of the members of our legislative houses are also up for election in november, many are not. Therefore it's entirely possible that if McCain is elected president in fact he won't be able to actually do much. On the other hand, if Obama is elected he will be able to do almost anything he chooses.

    As to whether or not Americans make informed choices when voting, my personal opinion is that some do and some don't. Like the UK, some amount of American voters are 'on the dole' and will vote for whichever candidate promises them bigger benefits. Also like the UK some amount of American voters work for the government or a government agency and will vote for whichever candidate promises to expand government programs thus preserving their jobs. And also like the UK some amount of American voters work for companies that build airplanes or ships or other expensive items that are primarily purchased by the gov't who will vote to preserve the gov't contracts with their employer.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    Quote Originally Posted by kitty69 View Post
    Jay Zeno thanks for that it seems very complicated, I am aware of some of the candidates views on certain issues and kinda understand the whole conservative/liberal/republic/democrat part of it. It just seems that the reporting over here has kinda made it seem like the whole issue really is that simple.
    Over here we have parties running for government with whoever is the leader of the party at that time becoming prime minister (you already know this lol) it just makes me wonder how many Americans actually make informed choices when they vote, when the whole thing is so very complicated. You are also voting in a vice president. This is something we dont really consider (in general) when choosing a leader.
    I find the whole thing really confusing and feel I should take an interest as it seems that decisions made in America often affect England (Iraq war etc)
    kitty, in theory there should be lots of political parties here, with each having their own base. However, it basically comes down to this: choose a debate point, one parrty will argues for it, one party will argue against it.

    And yes there is a small population in this country that will vote for Obama because he is black, and another small population that will vote for McCain/Palin because she is a woman.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    Quote Originally Posted by Zia_Abq View Post
    Oh my god!

    How in the world does someone get to run a whole State much less be on the national ballot without knowing what the VP does? I mean, HELLO they preside over the Senate in addition ofcourse to stepping in for the Prez should he or she become unable to hold office. But mainly the VP presides over the Senate.

    I'd love to see a women in high office someday soon. Not so much a conservative obviously. But seriously can we AT LEAST get one who knows what her job duties would be more than a month prior to being considered for the job Is that really so much to ask? Guess it is from the GOP anyway.
    She was comparing the essentially do - nothing role of the Veep to the impact a Governor can and does have. Presiding over the Senate ? According to Harry Truman it involved nothing more than making sure the Senate "got prayed over twice a day ". Teddy Roosevelt thought he could accomplish more as Governor of New York than as Vice President. John Nance Garner ( FDR's two time Veep ) said the office:" wasn't worth a bucket of warm shit ". Getting the picture ?

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    Quote Originally Posted by Zia_Abq View Post
    Come on now, you know that isn’t true. He just doesn’t have an energy plan that you republicans like, that’s all.
    What IS his energy plan ? He says he wants to make us "energy independent" in ten years ? HOW ?

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    Quote Originally Posted by Zia_Abq View Post
    More stuff I'm just now learning about her Gov. Palin.

    She only has a bachelors degree in journalism with a MINOR in politics.

    On top of being CURRENTLY under investigation by an independent investigator hired by the state legislature for abuse of power- last year Palin disagreed with the Board of Agriculture and Conservation controlled Creamery Board, so she fired the entire board and replaced them with members that agreed with her. The company they were in charge of saving went out of business anyway.

    She has said herself that she is not really interested in Iraq. Is that really a mindset we need to be "a heartbeat away" from the top job while we are at war in Iraq?
    Don't we all wish Bush and Cheney had been LESS interested in Iraq ?

    As governor of Alaska she has zero foreign policy responsibility.

    As for the investigation, it is clear that it is politically motivated pay-back for her challenge to the Ted Stevens / Young culture of cronyism and corruption. She was highly critical of the Stevens "Bridge to Nowhere" along with his other shameful pork-barreling and pocketlining. The natural gas bill she got through was opposed by Stevens and Young for years so their buddies could get rich.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    Quote Originally Posted by i.breathe.in View Post
    yay pipelines! just what we need to destroy more of the polar areas wildlife and habitat.

    god forbid you be interested in alternative renewables.
    The existing pipelines in Alaska had NONE of the environmental impact that was predicted. Drilling in ANWR would involve using an area the size of JFK or Dulles Airport in an overall area the size of South Dakota ! I think the caribou and polar bears will be just fine.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    What IS his energy plan ? He says he wants to make us "energy independent" in ten years ? HOW ?

    I'm pretty sure you know it already and just are trying again to pull me into an endless debate. I told you twice before that I don't do that shit so I don't get why you continue to try that game with me. But if you really don't know then check out his website for the details. I'm not doing your research for you, sorry.
    Last edited by Zia_Abq; 08-30-2008 at 01:13 PM.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    She was highly critical of the Stevens "Bridge to Nowhere" along with his other shameful pork-barreling and pocketlining.
    She was for it for a long time though. Plus she got more earmarks for her State than any other.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    She hardly told Congress "No Thank You". Stevens had secured more the $200 million for the project. The earmark was stripped, but Alaska still got the money. It went in the general fund. She gladly took it and used it on other state projects and declared the bridge project dead after only $70 mil or so remained for a project costing $398 mil. The leader in the effort to strip the earmark? John McCain. They were hardly on the same side at the time.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    The existing pipelines in Alaska had NONE of the environmental impact that was predicted.
    Not sure what was predicted and by whom or when but here are a few well known problems that have occured and certianly caused negative enviromental impact.In Oct. 2001 the was a leak of more than 6,000 barrels of oil.The Exxon Valdez incident while not a direct pipeline failure but related to the pipeline happened in March 1989 spilled more than more than 11 million gallons of crude. On Feb. 15, 1978, there was a leak of 16,000 barrels. I'm sure there are many more issues too.

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    Default Re: McCain's choice - interesting turnabout

    Quote Originally Posted by Zia_Abq View Post
    Not sure what was predicted and by whom or when but here are a few well known problems that have occured and certianly caused negative enviromental impact.In Oct. 2001 the was a leak of more than 6,000 barrels of oil.The Exxon Valdez incident while not a direct pipeline failure but related to the pipeline happened in March 1989 spilled more than more than 11 million gallons of crude. On Feb. 15, 1978, there was a leak of 16,000 barrels. I'm sure there are many more issues too.
    It was predicted that the caribou herds would STARVE and that the pipeline would disrupt their migration patterns- didn't happen. They've thrived.

    The Exxon Valdez had NOTHING to do with the pipeline. The two leaks you described while unfortunate and undesirable are mere drops in the bucket in comparison and leaks on land are not the same as leaks on water. They're easier to clean up.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 08-30-2008 at 02:03 PM.

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