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Thread: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    And what IF that means thousands leave or, despite their best efforts, can't "grow up" to the point where it effects the quality of the military? Is being politically correct worth it under those circumastances?
    Yes being correct really is worth it in those regards. You could argue the same about having segregation in the military. Once they intergrated thousands could've left then too. Did people leave because they didn't want to share quarters with someone of another race/ethnicity, yeah I'm probably sure they did. But as you can see, the U.S. military has not crumbled.

    Gays and lesbians fight for this country and risk their life just like straight soldiers do.







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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by cinammonkisses View Post
    Yes being correct really is worth it in those regards. You could argue the same about having segregation in the military. Once they intergrated thousands could've left then too. Did people leave because they didn't want to share quarters with someone of another race/ethnicity, yeah I'm probably sure they did. But as you can see, the U.S. military has not crumbled.

    Gays and lesbians fight for this country and risk their life just like straight soldiers do.
    And should be commended for doing so.

    The problem with your argument is that, during the Civil Rights era, soldiers were drafted into the military. They couldn't just leave. Today we have an all-volunteer military. Creating conditions that might discourage some from joining probably isn't a good idea, though the impact of doing so is subject to debate.
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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by cinammonkisses View Post
    Why do you feel that straight adoptive parents are more preferable over gay adoptive parents?
    Personally, I believe a 'traditional" upbringing is preferable to a non-traditional one, all other things being equal. I'm not saying gays make bad parents or anything like that. I just think having traditional parents leaves the kid one less issue to deal with. It's just my opinion. I'm not an activist one way or the other on the subject.
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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    Personally, I believe a 'traditional" upbringing is preferable to a non-traditional one, all other things being equal. I'm not saying gays make bad parents or anything like that. I just think having traditional parents leaves the kid one less issue to deal with. It's just my opinion. I'm not an activist one way or the other on the subject.

    Your personal opinion on that is just that....A lot of people have personal opinions on blacks etc. Whatever problem you have with it is just that.....YOUR PROBLEM.....it gives you ZERO power to take away someone elses civil right.

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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    And should be commended for doing so.

    The problem with your argument is that, during the Civil Rights era, soldiers were drafted into the military. They couldn't just leave. Today we have an all-volunteer military. Creating conditions that might discourage some from joining probably isn't a good idea, though the impact of doing so is subject to debate.

    Actually, when we had a draft, a lot of straight guys claimed to be gay to get out of serving.

    An intelligent approach to permitting gays to serve would NOT make it part of a recruitment campaign. Just announce that gays would no longer be discharged for nothing more than just being gay.

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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by sapphiregirl View Post
    Your personal opinion on that is just that....A lot of people have personal opinions on blacks etc. Whatever problem you have with it is just that.....YOUR PROBLEM.....it gives you ZERO power to take away someone elses civil right.
    Where did I say it was anything other than just my constitutionally-protected opinion?

    And how does the fact that I feel that way translate into me trying to deny somebody else's civil rights?

    And when did the right to adopt become a civil right? I must have missed that Supreme Court decision.

    It seems you feel that if I don't agree with you, I must be some sort of hateful person. There's the real intolerance.
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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    Where did I say it was anything other than just my constitutionally-protected opinion?

    And how does the fact that I feel that way translate into me trying to deny somebody else's civil rights?

    And when did the right to adopt become a civil right? I must have missed that Supreme Court decision.

    It seems you feel that if I don't agree with you, I must be some sort of hateful person. There's the real intolerance.


    Your personal opinion ooooooooooooooozes judgement, hate, and intolerance..... But that is just my opinion. If you want to be closeminded about it....at least be able to tell me ALL the families you have visited/know who have adopted gay kids to even form a judgement.


    ----------------------------------------


    This teenager was kicked out on the street by her traditional parents but adopted by a woman who is a lesbian that saved her life...I'm sure she would love your personal opinion....quite frankly I think, I would not be surprised if gay couples end up having BETTER marriages and raising more well rounded kids than straight couples....wouldn't that be a kick.
    ------------

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    I'm saddling up for my fifth AIDS/LifeCycle. As many of you know, this past year and half, HIV / AIDS has literally hit home with me. In January 2007, I became the legal guardian of a beautiful teenager, Lexi, who was born with HIV. The sweetest part of this story is that I've been able to personally see the difference your contributions to HIV / AIDS make in the lives a person living with it. When Lexi moved in with me, her viral load was over 160,000 and her Tcells at 27. Thanks to Lexi's incredible will to live, the wonderful people at Camp Kindle, Camp Laurel, East Bay AIDS Clinic and the Downtown Youth Clinic and a new drug called Isentress, Lexi has a new lease on life. Her viral load is undetectable and her Tcells are climbing. She has the prospect of a long and happy life because people like you contributed to programs that help people living with HIV and medical research. Thank you.
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    From June 1-7, 2008, I'm bicycling in AIDS/LifeCycle. It's a 7-day, 545-mile bike ride from San Francisco to Los Angeles to make a world of difference in the lives of people living with HIV and AIDS.
    Help me support the San Francisco AIDS Foundation by giving what you can. We'll keep riding until AIDS and HIV are a thing of the past.
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    p.s. That's Lexi and I on the right.
    Last edited by sapphiregirl; 09-11-2008 at 11:32 AM.

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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by sapphiregirl View Post
    Your personal opinion ooooooooooooooozes judgement, hate, and intolerance..... But that is just my opinion. If you want to be closeminded about it....at least be able to tell me ALL the families you have visited/know who have adopted gay kids to even form a judgement.


    ----------------------------------------


    This teenager was kicked out on the street by her traditional parents but adopted by a woman who is a lesbian that saved her life...I'm sure she would love your personal opinion....quite frankly I think, I would not be surprised if gay couples end up having BETTER marriages and raising more well rounded kids than straight couples....wouldn't that be a kick.
    ------------

    Dear friends,
    I'm saddling up for my fifth AIDS/LifeCycle. As many of you know, this past year and half, HIV / AIDS has literally hit home with me. In January 2007, I became the legal guardian of a beautiful teenager, Lexi, who was born with HIV. The sweetest part of this story is that I've been able to personally see the difference your contributions to HIV / AIDS make in the lives a person living with it. When Lexi moved in with me, her viral load was over 160,000 and her Tcells at 27. Thanks to Lexi's incredible will to live, the wonderful people at Camp Kindle, Camp Laurel, East Bay AIDS Clinic and the Downtown Youth Clinic and a new drug called Isentress, Lexi has a new lease on life. Her viral load is undetectable and her Tcells are climbing. She has the prospect of a long and happy life because people like you contributed to programs that help people living with HIV and medical research. Thank you.
    This year, I'm riding for my little girl to honor her brave battle against HIV. I look forward to a day when she's old enough and strong enough to ride beside me.
    From June 1-7, 2008, I'm bicycling in AIDS/LifeCycle. It's a 7-day, 545-mile bike ride from San Francisco to Los Angeles to make a world of difference in the lives of people living with HIV and AIDS.
    Help me support the San Francisco AIDS Foundation by giving what you can. We'll keep riding until AIDS and HIV are a thing of the past.
    xo
    Shannon
    p.s. That's Lexi and I on the right.
    In fairness, the research is not in on how children with two gay parents do as opposed to those raised by so-called "straight" parents.( I'm sorry, but I often wonder how they take account of cases where "Dad" is a closet gay and/or "Mom" likes girls.) My guess, based on what little is available is, that there is no appreciable difference.

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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by sapphiregirl View Post
    Your personal opinion ooooooooooooooozes judgement, hate, and intolerance..... But that is just my opinion. If you want to be closeminded about it....at least be able to tell me ALL the families you have visited/know who have adopted gay kids to even form a judgement.


    ----------------------------------------


    This teenager was kicked out on the street by her traditional parents but adopted by a woman who is a lesbian that saved her life...I'm sure she would love your personal opinion....quite frankly I think, I would not be surprised if gay couples end up having BETTER marriages and raising more well rounded kids that straight couples....wouldn't that be a kick.
    ------------

    Dear friends,
    I'm saddling up for my fifth AIDS/LifeCycle. As many of you know, this past year and half, HIV / AIDS has literally hit home with me. In January 2007, I became the legal guardian of a beautiful teenager, Lexi, who was born with HIV. The sweetest part of this story is that I've been able to personally see the difference your contributions to HIV / AIDS make in the lives a person living with it. When Lexi moved in with me, her viral load was over 160,000 and her Tcells at 27. Thanks to Lexi's incredible will to live, the wonderful people at Camp Kindle, Camp Laurel, East Bay AIDS Clinic and the Downtown Youth Clinic and a new drug called Isentress, Lexi has a new lease on life. Her viral load is undetectable and her Tcells are climbing. She has the prospect of a long and happy life because people like you contributed to programs that help people living with HIV and medical research. Thank you.
    This year, I'm riding for my little girl to honor her brave battle against HIV. I look forward to a day when she's old enough and strong enough to ride beside me.
    From June 1-7, 2008, I'm bicycling in AIDS/LifeCycle. It's a 7-day, 545-mile bike ride from San Francisco to Los Angeles to make a world of difference in the lives of people living with HIV and AIDS.
    Help me support the San Francisco AIDS Foundation by giving what you can. We'll keep riding until AIDS and HIV are a thing of the past.
    xo
    Shannon
    p.s. That's Lexi and I on the right.
    OK, so you gave me two incidences of where a gay person adopted a child and made a huge difference in that child's life. I say that's wonderful. I do not oppose that one bit.

    I just think that when an infant is put up for adoption, a traditional pair of parents is the ideal scenario. I'm not being hateful, judgmental or intolerant when thinking this. I'll admit that gay parents can be great parents as well, but having gay parents might prove complicated down the road. I'm thinking strictly about the child here.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

    If you're in your twenties and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're in you're forties and aren't a conservative, you have no brain - Winston Churchill

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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    Where did I say it was anything other than just my constitutionally-protected opinion?

    And how does the fact that I feel that way translate into me trying to deny somebody else's civil rights?

    And when did the right to adopt become a civil right? I must have missed that Supreme Court decision.

    It seems you feel that if I don't agree with you, I must be some sort of hateful person. There's the real intolerance.
    I think the Supreme Court has left adoption and child custody questions to the various states. That arguably conflicts with some other cases that, inter alia, struck down sodomy statutes

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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    ^^^

    I'm just recoiling at being called judgmental, hateful, and intolerant when nothing I said was judgmental, hateful, or intolerant.

    This is not an issue I have a vested interest in.

    I find steak preferable to seafood. It doesn't mean I hate seafood or think it shouldn't be on the menu.
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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by cinammonkisses View Post

    If you're in the military, you're there to do your job. And FTR: There are alot of gay males in the military. All gay men are not the loud, flamboyant types that are usually stereotyped as the majority.
    MOST are not. People don't realize we are everywhere. Gay people and bi-people are everywhere and have always been there. They might as well man up and move on. The fact that they don't know they are surrounded speaks to how normal we are and how uninterested we are in hitting on homophobes.
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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post

    I just think that when an infant is put up for adoption, a traditional pair of parents is the ideal scenario. I'm not being hateful, judgmental or intolerant when thinking this. I'll admit that gay parents can be great parents as well, but having gay parents might prove complicated down the road. I'm thinking strictly about the child here.
    The only thing that is traditional is adults raising children. All through history adults have raised children whether they were alone or in pairs, whether they were related or unrelated, whether straight or gay. No matter what it takes a village. Here in this country there is a beautiful tradition of adults taking over to raise other's kids and it shouldn't be twisted with religious agendas.
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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimist View Post
    The only thing that is traditional is adults raising children. All through history adults have raised children whether they were alone or in pairs, whether they were related or unrelated, whether straight or gay. No matter what it takes a village. Here in this country there is a beautiful tradition of adults taking over to raise other's kids and it shouldn't be twisted with religious agendas.
    Agreed. What if two people who lived together but were not gay wanted to adopt a child? Maybe two siblings or good friends? Would that be ok? Is it the "OMG GAY SECKS!" part that people are worried about?
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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by Optimist View Post
    The only thing that is traditional is adults raising children. All through history adults have raised children whether they were alone or in pairs, whether they were related or unrelated, whether straight or gay. No matter what it takes a village.

    In the optimal case, it doesn't take a village, it takes a family. Unfortunately, the optimal cases are becoming increasingly rare. "It takes a village" is just another way of saying we need big government to provide for us and people needn't be responsible for the consequences of their actions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Optimist View Post
    Here in this country there is a beautiful tradition of adults taking over to raise other's kids and it shouldn't be twisted with religious agendas.
    First off, its not a "tradition". That would mean it is what everyone does or aspires to do.

    While it is a beautiful thing that many people (of whatever sexual orientation) are willing and able to raise children needing a home, let's not fool ourselves that its a good thing that kids find themselves in this situation in the first place. Such situations generally arise out of tragedies ( death of parents ) or parental irresponsibility (parents drug-addicted or in jail ) or indifference ( parents just don't want the responsibilty of being parents ). That doesn't diminish the kindness of those willing to provide a home.

    For the record, I am not religious and I have not used one religious argument in any of my posts. But since you brought it up, there is a quote in the Bible something to the effect of "man shall not lay down with man and woman shall not lay down with woman" or something like that. While that may be some people's reason for opposing gay adoptions, I only stated that I thought straight adoptions were preferable.

    Any person or persons, straight or gay, willing to make the sacrifices necessary to raise a child, particularly a child that is not biologically their's should be praised for their unselfishness.
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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    First off, its not a "tradition". That would mean it is what everyone does or aspires to do.
    Maybe for you, tradition is not a good word to use in this example. But, for me (I think this is what Optimist was getting at) is that the majority of this family are not brought up with mother and father. Lots of kids are raised by grandparents, step parents, single parents, aunts, cousins etc. It's just not as common to find the birth mother and birth father raising a family together in this day and age.

    And, like Optimist I too believe it does take a village..







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    Quote Originally Posted by cinammonkisses View Post
    Maybe for you, tradition is not a good word to use in this example. But, for me (I think this is what Optimist was getting at) is that the majority of this family are not brought up with mother and father. Lots of kids are raised by grandparents, step parents, single parents, aunts, cousins etc. It's just not as common to find the birth mother and birth father raising a family together in this day and age.

    And, like Optimist I too believe it does take a village..
    Leaving aside issues of "gay vs straight" there is an avalanch of research that clearly shows that on an economic and educational basis; children raised in TWO-Parent households do MUCH better than those raised by a single parent. That includes single parents with help from the extended family i.e. grandparents; aunts, uncles and siblings. They are far less likely to live in poverty and do much better in school.

    So, KNOWING this ( because it is so heavily documented ) then shouldn't we encourage two-parent child rearing even when it means two men or two women doing the parenting ? That is, if we seriously care about the "best interests of the child" ?

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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by cinammonkisses View Post
    Maybe for you, tradition is not a good word to use in this example. But, for me (I think this is what Optimist was getting at) is that the majority of this family are not brought up with mother and father. Lots of kids are raised by grandparents, step parents, single parents, aunts, cousins etc. It's just not as common to find the birth mother and birth father raising a family together in this day and age.

    And, like Optimist I too believe it does take a village..
    I'm not so sure its the majority of cases for people that I know but agreed birth mothers and fathers raising the child is becoming increasingly rare, and that is unfortunate for the child. Call it whatever you want, its simply incorrect to calll it a "tradition". I'd argue the exact opposite, that the "tradiotional"way to raise a child is with both birth parents present.

    It never used to take a village until all the big entitlement programs came along.
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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    I'm not so sure its the majority of cases for people that I know but agreed birth mothers and fathers raising the child is becoming increasingly rare, and that is unfortunate for the child. Call it whatever you want, its simply incorrect to calll it a "tradition". I'd argue the exact opposite, that the "tradiotional"way to raise a child is with both birth parents present.

    It never used to take a village until all the big entitlement programs came along.
    But what I'm saying is that it's not the norm. You have this illusion of what the world once was. The world is SO MUCH bigger than this "world" you have envisioned that society is made up of. Change is inevitable.

    Also, I find it very disturbing that you are a teacher and you do not feel that it takes a village to raise a child.







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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Human beings started out with everyone raising the children. It was a collective pool of parents. They would nurse each others kids, feed each others kids, discipline each other's kids, etc. The term "It takes a village to raise a child" is not some new fangled thing made up by those who want government entitlements.
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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by cinammonkisses View Post
    But what I'm saying is that it's not the norm. You have this illusion of what the world once was. Change is inevitable.

    Also, I find it very disturbing that you are a teacher and you do not feel that it takes a village to raise a child.
    On the first part, I think we agree. Its not the norm. I remember the way things used to be ( and still are for some people) and I see the change. I just think it is a change for the worse.

    I don't know where you're going with the second part. I am an inner-city HS teacher and my views re: the village don't make me any better or worse at teaching the material I teach. I also spend considerable time and money doing things to help my students out outside of school. Without going into details, I've done more than nearly all the other teachers I know but I pick and choose my places. I don't have to do a single one of these things but I do them because I have the means and opportunity to make a difference in their lives. That doesn't mean anyone has a right to expect that from me.

    If, in fact, it does take a village to raise a child, its because parents are abdicating their responsibilities.
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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    On the first part, I think we agree. Its not the norm. I remember the way things used to be ( and still are for some people) and I see the change. I just think it is a change for the worse.

    I don't know where you're going with the second part. I am an inner-city HS teacher and my views re: the village don't make me any better or worse at teaching the material I teach. I also spend considerable time and money doing things to help my students out outside of school. Without going into details, I've done more than nearly all the other teachers I know but I pick and choose my places. I don't have to do a single one of these things but I do them because I have the means and opportunity to make a difference in their lives. That doesn't mean anyone has a right to expect that from me.

    If, in fact, it does take a village to raise a child, its because parents are abdicating their responsibilities.
    Wait a minute !
    Are you saying that even with a classic set of parents (" Ozzie & Harriet";" Ward & June Cleaver" or similar type "ideal") that good schools with good teachers and good neighbors looking out for their neighbors' children are not going to be of significant benefit in child rearing ? I would argue that they are and that single parent households even in "good" neighborhoods with "good" schools are more challenged than two parent families.

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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Wait a minute !
    Are you saying that even with a classic set of parents (" Ozzie & Harriet";" Ward & June Cleaver" or similar type "ideal") that good schools with good teachers and good neighbors looking out for their neighbors' children are not going to be of significant benefit in child rearing ? I would argue that they are and that single parent households even in "good" neighborhoods with "good" schools are more challenged than two parent families.
    I don't see how you got that from my post.

    I was responding to the "bad teacher" inference being thrown or about to be thrown at me.

    The single most important aspect in kids' success is parental involvement, regardless of what type of community you live in. I work in a district where I almost never get to meet the parents and then the ones I meet are the ones I least need to meet.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

    If you're in your twenties and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're in you're forties and aren't a conservative, you have no brain - Winston Churchill

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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    I don't see how you got that from my post.

    I was responding to the "bad teacher" inference being thrown or about to be thrown at me.

    The single most important aspect in kids' success is parental involvement, regardless of what type of community you live in. I work in a district where I almost never get to meet the parents and then the ones I meet are the ones I least need to meet.
    I agree with you on parental abdication vs parental involvement.

    I disagree with the entire premise of Hillary's bullshit book " IT TAKES A VILLAGE" because decades of governmental involvement /interference in child rearing and education have directly led to disaster

    I fault teacher's unions and education professionals for the lousy state of our public schools.

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    Default Re: Sarah Palin Can't Take a Joke

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    I fault teacher's unions and education professionals for the lousy state of our public schools.
    Its very popular ES to blame the teachers for the problems in education today. We are an easy target and to be honest I don't particularly care much for the people I work with but the real problem lies with the politicians, school boards, and administrators.

    I just want to go in every day and teach some math to kids who can handle it. Instead I am pretending to teach Alg II and Pre-cal to students who don't even known their multiplication tables so it looks good for the papers. Every June, I face the same dilemma: passing kids who don't deserve credit or failing kids ( and delaying their graduation by a year) in a class they had no business taking and never wanted in the first place. It's a no-win situation for the students and for me. That problem is caused by politicians, scool boards, and administrators and its not fair to the students. By the time the students find out they're fucked, they're no longer the school district's problem. It sucks but it's all a political show, just like these campaigns we're watching.
    Last edited by bem401; 09-12-2008 at 01:34 PM.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

    If you're in your twenties and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're in you're forties and aren't a conservative, you have no brain - Winston Churchill

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