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Thread: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

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    Featured Member francescadubois's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Hmm, yes. I see. It just takes so much energy though. Besides, you're much less likely to sway someone's opinion by critiquing, disputing, insert euphemism here. I don't even listen to people who say biting underhanded things, even if they support what I believe.
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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Quote Originally Posted by francescadubois View Post
    Hmm, yes. I see. It just takes so much energy though. Besides, you're much less likely to sway someone's opinion by critiquing, disputing, insert euphemism here. I don't even listen to people who say biting underhanded things, even if they support what I believe.
    "Biting" ? Occasionally but "underhanded" ? What have I posted that was "underhanded" ?

    I don't know about "swaying opinion" but if someone's ideas can't stand up to examination and critique, then how valuable are they ?

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    Featured Member francescadubois's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Well, see, I'm not saying YOU are underhanded. I'm saying that damn near everyone on this board has taken an unnecessary swipe at a person/people that doesn't agree with his/her ideals. It was a general reference.

    And they are just opinions. They are valuable to the person who they belong to. I don't think anyone has the right to say whether someone else's opinion is valuable just because they don't agree with it.

    ETA: I have seen both sides present evidence to back up their opinion/ideals, and seen people who don't agree with them shit all over said evidence b/c it doesn't line up with THEIR opinion/ideals.
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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Quote Originally Posted by francescadubois View Post
    Well, see, I'm not saying YOU are underhanded. I'm saying that damn near everyone on this board has taken an unnecessary swipe at a person/people that doesn't agree with his/her ideals. It was a general reference.

    And they are just opinions. They are valuable to the person who they belong to. I don't think anyone has the right to say whether someone else's opinion is valuable just because they don't agree with it.

    ETA: I have seen both sides present evidence to back up their opinion/ideals, and seen people who don't agree with them shit all over said evidence b/c it doesn't line up with THEIR opinion/ideals.
    Actually you have a very valid point. I SHOULD have said " ideas that don't hold up to examination and critique aren't very valuable TO ME ". My bad.

    I also agree with your second point and it's why I continually commend posters who TRY to back up their opinions with facts. It's also why we ALL ought to try and maintain civility.

    Without starting an entire metaphysical discussion about concepts like "Truth", I have to say that IN MY OPINION, facts ought to trump feelings and the objective is worth more than the subjective as far as public policy is concerned.

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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Actually you have a very valid point. I SHOULD have said " ideas that don't hold up to examination and critique aren't very valuable TO ME ". My bad.

    I also agree with your second point and it's why I continually commend posters who TRY to back up their opinions with facts. It's also why we ALL ought to try and maintain civility.

    Without starting an entire metaphysical discussion about concepts like "Truth", I have to say that IN MY OPINION, facts ought to trump feelings and the objective is worth more than the subjective as far as public policy is concerned.
    I agree. It's all about civil discourse and actual facts, not just emotions, half truths and outright lies. I always try to find facts to back up what I say and if I can't then I won't argue that point.
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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    I just want to add something to this twist the discussion has taken.

    People should not be grilled to death just for simply having an opinion. Nor should they be harassed for not being willing to argue that opinion against someone who they will never see eye to eye with in the first place.

    If someone claims something to be absolute gospel truth then obviously it needs to be backed up with facts or source material. But opinions DO NOT require that same sort of support because they are opinions.

    It is not right for certain members (who go unnamed for the purpose of this discussion) to be attacking others opinions and DEMANDING that they be proven to THEIR satisfaction. Especially when due to the vast difference in opinion to begin with such satisfaction is downright impossible. It argumentative and starts to become a form of harassment.

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    Featured Member Miss_Luscious's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Zia_Abq View Post
    But opinions DO NOT require that same sort of support because they are opinions.
    This is also true. If someone says, "I think..." or "My opinion is..." then that of course does not need to be backed up. Like you said, only things that people are stating as truth need to be backed up. We should not tear each other's opinions down, even if we don't agree with them.
    "A stupid man's report of what a clever man says is never accurate because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand." - Bertrand Russell

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine View Post
    Ya'll bitches need to calm down. Cerously.
    In other words: Boo-motherfucking-hoo

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    Featured Member francescadubois's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Yaaaaaaaaaaaaay!! People are calming the hell down!
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    Veteran Member Zia_Abq's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss_Luscious View Post
    We should not tear each other's opinions down, even if we don't agree with them.

    Exactly!

    It’s also not right for people to go around day in and day out and attack nearly EVERY signal post that someone else writes. It’s called post stalking. It’s another form of harassment. And it should really stop. It becomes very hard to maintain civil discourse when one is under constant attack for even daring to participate at all.

    PS : No one should have to ask another member repeatedly to just leave them alone either.
    Last edited by Zia_Abq; 09-12-2008 at 11:16 AM.

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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    all i have to say is that if McCain wins i'll be leaving this country sooner then expected. the only reason i'm still here is because i have a free ride for college. my brain is turning into mush.

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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    and all I can say is that if Obama wins I'll be leaving this country sooner than expected as well !!! But unlike your free ride, I'll be seeking citizenship in a different country in order to avoid being taxed to death by America.

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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    If Obama wins and all the Republicans leave just because of taxes???

    Cool....then the rest of US can build an America for EVERYONE. I'd probably start skipping around if Republicans started leaving....take the Right Wing Whackjobs with you. Come back when you can follow the US Constitution, protect the environment, and pull your head out of your ass when it comes to oil so people are not fighting wars for your sick greed.

    I seriously think greed is a disease in Republicans.




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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    and all I can say is that if Obama wins I'll be leaving this country sooner than expected as well !!! But unlike your free ride, I'll be seeking citizenship in a different country in order to avoid being taxed to death by America.

    Please share the perfect country to move too! As I know American taxes is cheaper than the tax I will have to pay in Europe. I was told if i denounce my American country. I will not have to pay high taxes. I was also told by the accountant the treaty between American and the UK is something like what ever country charges the most taxes. The person get charge that tax, right now the UK taxes is more than America.

    Which country will give better tax breaks?
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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Without starting an entire metaphysical discussion about concepts like "Truth", I have to say that IN MY OPINION, facts ought to trump feelings and the objective is worth more than the subjective as far as public policy is concerned.
    So if we feel a fact is fucked up then there is nothing to be said about it?

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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Quote Originally Posted by sapphiregirl View Post
    If Obama wins and all the Republicans leave just because of taxes???

    Cool....then the rest of US can build an America for EVERYONE. I'd probably start skipping around if Republicans started leaving....take the Right Wing Whackjobs with you. Come back when you can follow the US Constitution, protect the environment, and pull your head out of your ass when it comes to oil so people are not fighting wars for your sick greed.

    I seriously think greed is a disease in Republicans.



    You've been played.

    The democrats are just as bad.

    Look up Biden and his deals with the credit card companies and shit.

    They do a lot of talk about race but their administrations are the whitest around.

    I could go on but you will have to find out for yourself.

    Your thinking is as simple as yelling "It's the Jews! It's the Jews!" Find some group and blame them. Sad. Sad. Sad.

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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    So if we feel a fact is fucked up then there is nothing to be said about it?
    Not at all. One can accept the reality of a particular moment or situation without approval. Like the war in Iraq; or the economy ; whatever.

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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    They can't win a fair fight. The caging of the voter rolls has already begun.

    In Virgina the there has been articles published in newspapers warning students that they may lose their scholarships/ financial aid/ dependent status/ residency status/ health insurance if they register to vote. That is utter bullshit, and they know it. The Universities have countered that there has never been any record of that ever happening. I guess that may mean that students that register this year may actually lose those things, now that the idea is in the heads of the conservatives that control the financial aid and medical insurance.
    Wouldn't this be true of students of out of state students? Changing residence could certainly affect eligibility for for many of these.

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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    I certainly hope that's not a dig at me. I would think you know me better than that.
    No, no, no! Certainly not! I actually had James Dobson in mind when I wrote that, LOL!


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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Which country will give better tax breaks
    well, for example, Costa Rica and Belize charge ZERO taxes on income earned outside of the country i.e. stocks and bonds on American / European / Asian exchanges. In comparison, Obama is proposing that the existing 15% US tax on the same stocks and bonds be raised to 25-30% !

    The problem is that, almost uniquely so, the US gov't attempts to charge US tax on the earnings of US citizens REGARDLESS of where in the world they are living. Thus to avoid the US tax, you must also give up US citizenship. This is a piece of cake if you are already a dual citizen and hold a second passport. But this is a real pain in the ass if you don't. Of course, there are various mechanisms in place for uber-rich people to 'buy' citizenship in other countries, but the price tag is far beyond middle class budgets. At least Belize and Costa Rica 'sell' citizenship for less than $100,000 !


    I'd probably start skipping around if Republicans started leaving
    I would only post a reminder about the old adage ... 'be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it !". Remember that all of Obama's wonderful promises depend on being able to tax the s#!t out of Americans who earn more than $250,000 per year. These are the people who already pay something like 67% of all income tax dollars. So if even a few of them decide to leave the country for Dubai or Monaco or wherever, and decide to renounce their US citizenship and with it their US income tax burden, then Obama is going to be facing a snowballing budget deficit. This will either lead to broken promises (which will piss off the American 'poor'), or more tax increases (on middle class earners like you and me), or both !

    In point of fact, many uber-rich Democrats have already shielded themselves from a good part of the US tax burden by investing in tax free municipal bonds or Fannie / Freddie bonds, or invested in tax favored (subsidized) industries like solar / ethanol / wind or tax favored tech stocks like Microsoft . But many uber-rich Republicans are currently invested in politically incorrect basic industries like oil or steel or heavy equipment, which don't share anywhere near the level of tax favored status. Thus they have far more to gain by going the expatriate route.
    Last edited by Melonie; 09-15-2008 at 03:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    Of course the conservatives have control of the TV, radio and newspapers. The left has a solid foothold on the web, though. But the conservatives (like McCain) are working to control the internet, too. They won't get it before November, though.
    That's funny since everyone I know including Dems, consider the news to be VERY liberal.
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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post

    I would only post a reminder about the old adage ... 'be careful what you wish for, because you just might get it !". Remember that all of Obama's wonderful promises depend on being able to tax the s#!t out of Americans who earn more than $250,000 per year.
    Even if Obama is elected and his proposed tax increases on the Americans earning over $250,000 are passed, taxes on the wealthiest Americans will still be low by historical standards. Remember, at one time the tax rate for the wealthiest Americans was 90%.

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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Even if Obama is elected and his proposed tax increases on the Americans earning over $250,000 are passed, taxes on the wealthiest Americans will still be low by historical standards. Remember, at one time the tax rate for the wealthiest Americans was 90%.
    Which is, of course, way to high.

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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Quote Originally Posted by kitana View Post
    That's funny since everyone I know including Dems, consider the news to be VERY liberal.
    Sorry but, in Kentucky

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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Quote Originally Posted by Yekhefah View Post
    ^^^ Count me among those disgusted with the current Republican Party, but I'm still not voting for Obama.

    Doc's right, there are a lot of undecided voters and you are not doing your side any favors by playing race cards and calling people nasty names, even when they have it coming. A bit more restraint might better help your cause.
    Exactly!

    She did the same thing she is accusing him of with me. Assuming all sorts of thing about me due to my location and the fact I happen to like one specific candidate that is Republican.
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    Default Re: Why the Democrats Will Lose...Again

    Remember, at one time the tax rate for the wealthiest Americans was 90%.
    an 'official' tax rate which of course no wealthy American actually paid !!! Again this is the great hypocracy of Democrat / Obama proposals to 'tax the rich' ... they always leave enough loopholes to render the 'official' tax rate little more than a press release for those rich enough to take advantage of those loopholes !

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