View Poll Results: Should she be allowed?

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41. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    16 39.02%
  • No

    14 34.15%
  • Only if not in uniform or in desk job

    11 26.83%
  • I have no idea

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Thread: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

  1. #26
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    Quote Originally Posted by FBR View Post
    Lysondra that is cute. But I doubt seriously if a cop with a Christian color coordinated cross would be acceptable.

    All should stick to the regulations.

    FBR
    Well the relevant difference is not the color coordination it is whether wearing the cross outside the uniform is mandatory to their faith. If it is - it should be accommodated. Blindly insisting that everyone conform to regulations that are designed around a certain value system, regardless of the nature of the exception or the necessity to the work is a little short sighted, isn't it? Like why in the world could you not fit mandatory uniform for those who have a physical disability that precludes parts of it or those who cannot adhere to religious requirements? I mean there is no reason for that except sheer resentment for people who are not conforming to a Christian ethic that is invisible yet pervasive is there?
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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    I voted yes, but with a couple of caveats.

    1. She needs to have a standard uniform scarf approved by the agency.
    2. It doesn't hinder her ability to do her job to any serious degree (block vision or effecting communication equipment etc.

    otherwise, what's the problem?


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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    Well the relevant difference is not the color coordination it is whether wearing the cross outside the uniform is mandatory to their faith. If it is - it should be accommodated. Blindly insisting that everyone conform to regulations that are designed around a certain value system, regardless of the nature of the exception or the necessity to the work is a little short sighted, isn't it? Like why in the world could you not fit mandatory uniform for those who have a physical disability that precludes parts of it or those who cannot adhere to religious requirements? I mean there is no reason for that except sheer resentment for people who are not conforming to a Christian ethic that is invisible yet pervasive is there?
    How about no religious statements? And your comment about physical disability made no sense in the context of the discussion.

    FBR
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  4. #29
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    Quote Originally Posted by FBR View Post
    How about no religious statements?
    Again, that seems silly, and it is sort of typical of secular christians (if that term makes any sense) and it is a misstatement of the problem. It is not only or primarily a religious statement; it is a religious requirement. If it wasn't it wouldn't have to be accommodated. Secular christians tend to be pretty dismissive of other religious requirements because the system that we are used to is designed to accommodate us. I mean - since the dominant religion doesn't require a head covering it is very easy that requiring no head covering has nothing to do with discrimination. But you still have a situation that is actively excluding people from a position for no reason except their religion. I mean, wearing the hat is not required for the job - note all the places in which sikh, muslim and jewish officers have been accommodated. Like here. They can still police.

    And your comment about physical disability made no sense in the context of the discussion.

    FBR
    Of course it does. The conversation is about a hypothetical case of constructive discrimination. Like you think that you should be able to constructively discriminate against someone because of their religion but not because of a physical disability? If you do - again, it really shows that you have an unrealistic idea of what religion means to religious people. If a government building refused to install wheelchair ramps would it sound reasonable if they said "We're not discriminating against the disabled. They're ALLOWED to access the buildings in the exact same way everyone else is. It has nothing to do with us if they don't climb stairs."
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  5. #30
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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    This is another gray scale issue. It is not black and white.

    Just to make it icky, here is one that is more in the middle ground -

    What about requiring Jews to work on the Sabbath? Can Jews just take a break from being fire fighters? or police? or working in hospital? because it is the Sabbath day? The rest of our society doesn't stop on that day. Criminals don't stop committing crimes. Fire are started. People are sick. Now it is a tougher matter because all of their peers have to work those days. Further, chances are if a Jewish person living in our culture breaks a bone, or house caught fire, or he was attacked, on the Sabbath day, would expect someone to be working and to help him.

    Here is a tougher one still -

    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/a...man/article.do

    "The woman had earlier insisted that it was contrary to her religious teaching for her to touch a man."

    "However, it is clear that she is happy to come into contact with men, just not shake their hand or kiss them."

    But this is her. What if she held to her beliefs more firmly, and also refused to touch males under any circumstances? Worse, she finds herself in a position where a fellow male officer is down? But she cannot provide first aid to him because she cannot touch him, thus her fellow officer dies all because she refuses to give CPR to make victims or fellow officers. Her God and Religion command it!

    So we might say, well the extremes are not "reasonable" accommodations, yet in some societies women just do not touch men, for religious reasons, period. But in other societies how do they make that work?

    Well one way is they simply don't hire women to be police officers. For that matter, in terms of defining reasonable, it seems reasonable to me to go to the countries where the Muslim religion is the predominate religion and find out how they deal with it. If the answer turns out to be that they do not allow hooded women to work as Police officers, then there is an argument that should be the same reasonable expectation in this society.

    Religious practices may have made sense in some societies, but there are usually additional caveats attached that do not apply to our society. It is fine when you take the whole thing, society and religion, because then it really did work, but when people start hand picking their choice of religion and society, then beliefs may not longer work, and something has to give.

  6. #31
    God/dess xdamage's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    By the way, just one article on the topic of how an Islamic culture deals with women in the police force, and the wearing of the niqab:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/18/wo...aza.html?fta=y

    "Since mid-August, 60 women have been accepted into the force. Unlike policemen, the women have not played any role in resisting the latest Israeli incursions, instead working mostly on cases that involve dealing with women, like drugs and prostitution, and helping out at police headquarters and the central jail."

    Thus they are hired, but do not actually work in the same capacity as male officers.

    This is in a society where the religious practice if wearing the veil became popular, but looking at the practice out of context is naive. There are/were many other expectations as well, which it turns out make it problematic for women to work in the same capacity as men on the police force.

    The niqab is just one tiny little visible aspect of the big picture.

    And there is yet another option -

    http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/20061108.html

    "The Muslim Canadian Congress acknowledges that women have the right to dress as they please—but the rights of the individual have to be balanced with the rights of society. We must keep in mind the impact we have on Canadian society when we exercise our rights. Wearing veils—whether as an expression of religious identity, or as a means of political defiance, is not in the best interest of Canada’s Muslim communities. Nor is it a requirement of our Islamic faith."

    and

    "It would be inconceivable for a man or a woman in a face mask to be employed in Canada as a police officer, a physician, a nurse, a school teacher, an airline pilot, a submarine commander, a judge, a lawyer, a bank clerk, as an office receptionist or even a store clerk."

    Yep, you see even in Canada, it seems people can ask questions like, maybe this religious ritual is not a requirement of faith, it is just a ritual, and the society can question trying to combine a society that has one set of beliefs, with a ritual from another that has another set and historically has not hired women as police either.

  7. #32
    God/dess Lysondra's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    Real quick - Jews are allowed to break Shabbat if it is to save a life. So as an officer or a firefighter, they have full religious permission to work.

    She is also allowed to touch a male to give first aid to him if it were to save his life as well.


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  8. #33
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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    Blindly insisting that everyone conform to regulations that are designed around a certain value system, regardless of the nature of the exception or the necessity to the work is a little short sighted, isn't it? Like why in the world could you not fit mandatory uniform for those who have a physical disability that precludes parts of it or those who cannot adhere to religious requirements?
    Well, first of all a physical disability is not the same thing as a religious belief. Some jobs, by the nature of what is involved in performing them, are going to be out of reach for folks with certain physical or mental handicaps. This is not a voluntary decision on either the employer or the employees part, it is simply the way it is.
    A religious belief is a voluntary choice and while I have no issue what so ever with what another person believes I don't think that their chosen faith should over ride the rules and regulations involved in a particular job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    I mean there is no reason for that except sheer resentment for people who are not conforming to a Christian ethic that is invisible yet pervasive is there?
    Well Jenny, I'm truly sorry that you feel that way. It's simply not true in all cases. It's not about being PC or any particular religious belief for me. What it is about is separation of church and state.
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  9. #34
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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    Quote Originally Posted by Lysondra View Post
    Real quick - Jews are allowed to break Shabbat if it is to save a life. So as an officer or a firefighter, they have full religious permission to work.

    She is also allowed to touch a male to give first aid to him if it were to save his life as well.
    I know, but it remains a gray area.

    What if she/he is just being called in to do paper work? Or to be on the job in case of a fire but no lives will be lost only property? Or at facility not to save lives but to provide care to the needy, but they wouldn't die either if they missed it for a day? Or if the fellow officer would not die, but would just remain in a lot of discomfort until help arrives?

    The point is if you believe like many of us do, that we humans created religion, then we have an obligation to push back at those human created rules that are problematic for society. We can't simply allow everyone to believe as they want. It just does not work.

    And the link I posted from the Canadian Muslims shows that even among the religious, their own views on these things is quite variable and often contentious. And hey, if it is not clear cut to them, of course it is not clear cut to the rest of society (that holds varying different views).

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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to



    About The First Turban Wearing Mounties

    There's always a fuss kicked up when something like this is proposed. Usually it's an effort to move the public service closer to representing the public demographic better, in furtherance of a policy. The status quo will be defended righteously and vigorously, and then it'll be forgotten as we all see how little it truly matters.

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    Not quite Angie Dickinson, "Police Woman" (1974), but .... Iraq is training women for its police force! In the photo above from Yahoo: A female police officer aims with her pistol in a shooting range during a graduation ceremony in Karbala, Iraq. Some 115 police woman graduated June 24, 2008 from Karbala's police academy.



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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    Morning, wow seems to be well, great debate.

    Now a caller also called speaking about how they encourage officers to also not wear a wedding band now is this true? no earrings? those aren't religious.


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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    Oh and unless they have this as a national thing, my fear is what if someone thinks she is a terrorist trying to impersonate an officer, no seriously,


  13. #38
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us View Post
    Well, first of all a physical disability is not the same thing as a religious belief. Some jobs, by the nature of what is involved in performing them, are going to be out of reach for folks with certain physical or mental handicaps. This is not a voluntary decision on either the employer or the employees part, it is simply the way it is.
    A religious belief is a voluntary choice and while I have no issue what so ever with what another person believes I don't think that their chosen faith should over ride the rules and regulations involved in a particular job.
    I beg to differ - as does the Canadian legal system and for that matter the American. Religion is a "choice". But it is a choice so deep and integral to someone's humanity that it is (or should be) a protected choice. It is a choice you should be able to make without facing negative repurcusions especially from the government (for example in government jobs). Like you don't think that the police should be able to say "give up being jewish to have this job"; so why should they be able to effectively say "violate your religious tenets or you cannot have this job?"
    Now I can think of some circumstances where they should be able to say that. To comply with safety regulations (e.g. hardhats). If it is necessary to the performance of the job (I can't think of a situation in which wearing a hat could be necessary, but if one came up). If the person were lying and it was not really a religious issue but merely personal preference. If the danger caused to others was of a degree that made it impracticable (again, can't think of a hat example, but this argument was used to attempt (although unsuccessfully) to prohibit the carrying of a kirpan in schools). But I don't think that the government of all people should be able to say "I'm sorry, but our uniform accommodates these core, established and dominant religions, excludes others for no practical reason and that is just the way it is".

    Well Jenny, I'm truly sorry that you feel that way. It's simply not true in all cases. It's not about being PC or any particular religious belief for me. What it is about is separation of church and state.
    Ah. See, that is what you get when you have an ancient and unsophisticated constitution. That is not really a separation of church and state. Like it's just not. Like having Sundays as the official day of rest - you can claim that it just happened that way all you want, however the fact is that it emerged that way to accommodate a particular religion. This is the exact same thing. This uniform was designed to accommodate certain kinds of people. To me it seems kind of cheap to say now that the people it was intended to accommodate had nothing in common and that it is not excluding anyone based on the very premise that the separation of church and state is intended to protect.

    BTW we don't have separation of church and state up here. We have freedom of religion and right to equality.
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  14. #39
    God/dess Jenny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    Quote Originally Posted by High-Heel-Lover View Post
    Oh and unless they have this as a national thing, my fear is what if someone thinks she is a terrorist trying to impersonate an officer, no seriously,
    If we were going to be moved by that rationale couldn't you use to to refuse to hire any group that is stereotyped?
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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    Quote Originally Posted by High-Heel-Lover View Post
    How would one know if it is a real police officer or just someone who is impersonating one?
    Spot the Canadian Mountie.



    Is the Mountie on the right any more authentic because she wears a stetson hat? For only $199.99 (+ shipping and handling), you can own your very own Mountie hat.

    Quote Originally Posted by High-Heel-Lover View Post
    should Jewish officer be allowed to wear their Yamaka?
    I think you meant to say yarmulke or kippah? Yes they should if it's a requirement of their religion. In Canada, it's common to see Sikh police officers wearing their turbans. With the exception of a couple provinces, it has only been an issue for Sikh motorcycle cops who are required to wear a helmet for safety reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by High-Heel-Lover View Post
    I see it isn't a hazard to her or the others, but maybe because of her religion she might be targeted, sucks ass yes but it is what it is in the world.
    Sadly, time and time again, human nature has demonstrated that people perceived to be different are targets of the ignorant. Perhaps part of the problem is the fact people feel it's necessary to hide who they are thus never give themselves an opportunity to become accepted by society at large.

    Quote Originally Posted by FBR View Post
    I voted NO because I am sick of the PC crap.
    Quote Originally Posted by FBR View Post
    How about no religious statements?
    But wouldn't having no religious statements be another example of political correctness? It would be no different from city halls and schools banning all references to Christmas.

    Is it a requirement of the Christian faith to outwardly wear a cross? I honestly don't know. But even if it was the case, I wouldn't think there are any regulations on the size, color or location it should be worn. I think the difference here is that turbans, yarmulkes and hijabs are worn on the head. If we're talking about wearing a Star of David pin, it wouldn't even be an issue.

    Canadian society is a cultural mosaic while American society is a melting pot. This explains the difference in attitudes thus far in this thread.

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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    We're a nation of immigrants, it takes all kinds. As long as the fabric covering her ear doesn't affect her hearing beyond the minimum standard a cop needs to have, then there's nothing wrong with it. Same goes for peripheral vision, but then I'm not sure how far the one she wants goes out from the side.

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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    I don't see why not. It doesn't seem like the sort of thing that would interfere with one's job.

    I'm torn on the license photo though; I don't think it really covers up much that would make a positive ID difficult, but if it did I'd say if you want a license, you have to have a photo taken with it off.
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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    WWEMD?


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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us View Post
    A Muslim police officer in the US? No, she should wear the official uniform that every other police officer has to wear. If she is not happy with the regulations and policies that the job entails she may simply choose to do something else for a living.
    I've got to go with Yoda here.

  20. #45
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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    Quote Originally Posted by lestat1 View Post
    I'm torn on the license photo though; I don't think it really covers up much that would make a positive ID difficult, but if it did I'd say if you want a license, you have to have a photo taken with it off.
    I dunno how it is in other parts of the world but Canada's passport office will not accept any submitted photos with head-coverings unless it can be proven to be a requirement of his/her religious faith (i.e., an official letter from the temple, church, mosque, synagogue, etc.). Religious head-coverings are permitted for driver's licenses.

    <musing 1> Is there a point to forcing people to remove their religious head-covering for a driver's license photo if the subject will be wearing it while driving? It's not like a police officer can pull over a driver for speeding and then order the person to take it off.

    <musing 2> What about people who take photos with a toupee? Or people who may be wearing colored contact lenses? Or people who have facial hair? Or people who wear glasses? Clearly, glasses are the ultimate disguise. I mean come on... no one knew Clark Kent was really Superman.

  21. #46
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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    I'm in favor of accommodations but for anyone here who has managed groups, then you know humans are whiny bastards.

    People tend to care when others among them are being given special treatment. If it means the others among them don't have to wear the uniform, or don't have to work weekend days, or don't have to work the more dangerous job for the same pay, these are things the common person sees in a group.

    They whine like little children... unfair, not fair to me, how come they get treated special and we don't? And so eventually it tends to breed managers who just give up on trying to accommodate everyone. The military takes this to the extreme. No discussions, no whining, no exceptions. The police are not the military but have adopted some of the military methods.

    Even the Muslims debate if this is really a religious requirement or a personal choice.

    Take this case - police officers must shave their beards.

    Now some Jews don't shave their face for religious reasons. Yet many are Jews and do shave. From an outsiders POV, it appears it isn't a requirement at all. God doesn't strike the later group down, so apparently it is just a personal choice. But wait, it matters so much to them? So? That is truly illogical. If we are going to make laws based on emotional conviction, how shall we measure that? Good luck. Some men don't shave for personal grooming reasons. Some of them have VERY STRONG EMOTIONAL reasons for wanting to keep their facial hair, but how come an Aetheist can't have an equally important right to choose? They have their reasons too. Or do we believe if someone has an emotional convinction and justifies by belief in a God, any God, that reason is somehow more valid?

    By the way Richard Dawkins also raises some of these issues as do other writers. Religious protection is one thing but the belief that the religious (meaning the non Aetheists, no matter what God they believe in) deserve special treatment is deeply seated in our Western Culture. We often don't even question it, but upon questioning it, it becomes apparent it is not logical. It is just what we are use too.

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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    x, I have to disagree with your assertion that ones religious beliefs can be simply categorized as an emotional conviction. I'm not religious by any means but I'm not going to try to argue with anyone of faith that what they believe to be true is illogical or nonsense.

    Everyone in Canada has the fundamental freedom of religion as well as the freedom of expression according to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It's black and white to me.

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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_Loblaw View Post
    Canadian society is a cultural mosaic while American society is a melting pot. This explains the difference in attitudes thus far in this thread.
    Makes sense. I think we were a melting pot here too, up until the Trudeau era. I think that's when we went in a different direction.

    I'm partial to this police headgear:

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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_Loblaw View Post
    x, I have to disagree with your assertion that ones religious beliefs can be simply categorized as an emotional conviction. I'm not religious by any means but I'm not going to try to argue with anyone of faith that what they believe to be true is illogical or nonsense.

    Everyone in Canada has the fundamental freedom of religion as well as the freedom of expression according to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. It's black and white to me.

    In truth nobody really allows religious people to do whatever they want, so they don't have complete freedom. Given that they don't, we are only talking about matters of degree, not an absolute right. I think the reality is our society, like all societies, means we allow people religious freedom within certain reason, but the specifics are always debatable. It definitely does not mean that the religious can do anything they want. They can do more in private, but not anything (e.g., they cant have sex with children), and once it goes public, even less.

    It use to be for me blacker/whiter for me, but having read a few books including Richard Dawkin's God Delusion I decided it is another gray area for me. But what seemed self-evident and obvious (because I never really thought about it) becomes murky once you add Atheism into the mix. We end up then with a situation where we favor giving preferential treatment to those who believe in a God, but see, ANY God. It doesn't even matter if they agree which God, or even agree on the required rituals, just that they do, they should be given special treatment. But not Aetheists. If you subtract the God part out, then their convinctions, no matter how emotional, our laws dismiss because they don't believe in a supreme being.

    If Aetheists were declared a formal religion, then it would be a religion without rituals, withing an overseer giving us directions. So in effect the Aetheists become like the non-smokers in society. They are forced to breathe everyone else's unique rituals and beliefs, while not being able to contribute any of their own, all because they can't say "Some higher up power, that nobody can see, but I swear is there, told me I must do X, Y, Z", we don't feel inclined to give them any special treatment for any rituals they CHOOSE to engage in.

    Then there are "religions" like Scientology. See people don't really take them very seriously because they don't have a clear cut God who gives them orders from on high. We see them as a cult.

    So in effect, it comes down to a simple thing. We grew up believing that if you believed in a being you can't see, and if you claim he gives you directions, and if you can get enough other people to agree with you, we may give you preferential treatment for it. Maybe we do that because we like to play the odds? We worry we better or just maybe one of these religions will be right, and their God really will be pissed off if we don't treat them special?

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    Default Re: Should a female Muslim police officer be allowed to

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenny View Post
    But I don't think that the government of all people should be able to say "I'm sorry, but our uniform accommodates these core, established and dominant religions, excludes others for no practical reason and that is just the way it is".
    Well, it is not the government that is saying anything of the sort. It is the local police departments policy and the police are not a governing body. Th

    Jenny, truthfully you make a lot of very good points. In my opinion though there are practical reasons why it's a bad idea. I just don't agree that women should be able to hide their faces if they want to be involved in law enforcement. Call me old-fashioned but, someday, if there is a shoot-out in downtown Boston and three kids are killed by police gunfire I want the legal system to be able to identify which Muslim policewoman may have fired the fatal shots...

    In any case, I make it a habit not to get involved in religious debates and I have already dragged myself deeper into this one then I intended. I don't agree with some of what you are saying here Jenny but I admire your tenacity...
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