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Thread: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

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    Default Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    I haven't paid much attention to the LP, but this morning I was shocked to learn where the party has gone. First, you're best candidate ran as a Republican, and your nominee is an old school Libertarian leaning Republican, but a Republican nonetheless. And here is the huh? moment for me.

    You're VP candidate is Wayne Allyn Root?! Are you serious? He's a republican turned Libertarian, but he lacks knowledge of most LP principles. The guy is a sports tout, selling sports picks to rubes who turn around and bet money they probably can't afford to lose. He's the equivalent of Kevin Trudeau.

    He awaysmakes note of the fact he's the only handicapper awarded a star on the Vegas Walk-of-Fame. Well he bought it himself. The guy is such a self promoter and predator he really could damage your party's credibility.

    On the chance someone outside the LP notices.

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    I vote Libertarian locally ,and for congressional or senate seats. I haven't felt like any LP candidate was qualified to be CinC.

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    What Army said.

    I'm a Libertarian and work with the party in my state but outside of that... meh.

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Ernie View Post
    The guy is such a self promoter and predator he really could damage your party's credibility.
    Does the Libertarian Party have any credibility to damage?

    Personally, I think the LP is the biggest impediment to libertarian minded candidates getting elected, either through the LP or through any other party. Its sort of hard for a party to get respect when its seen as both a refuge for people with ideas so extreme that non-libertarians will never accept them, and as a second chance drawing for major party candidates who were but a blip in their party's nominating process.
    Former SCJ now in rehab.

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    My libertarian vote is a protest vote. I know that right now they have no chance.

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    ^^^ Same here. I'm not voting for Bob Barr (ugh), but I'm voting Lib to send a message to the Republican Party. When the Republicans run an actual conservative, they can have my vote back. (I am a registered Republican.)

    Unless Ron Paul runs as an independent, in which case he still has my vote.

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    I think Ron Paul is on the ballot in some states.

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    Without sufficient regulation you have the 'rule of greed', which lead to the current financial mess.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    It's funny how unregulated free markets have led to Republican Socialism.

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Ernie View Post
    It's funny how unregulated free markets have led to Republican Socialism.
    It is also funny how unregulated free markets have led to the biggest financial crisis our nation has seen in a very long time. Like, since before America had it's own currency, kind of huger financial crisis.

    I used to think I was a libertarian. But that was the big hearted part of me that trusted everyone to do the right thing (by and large) for their fellow man. Now I know that we do need rules and laws and governments to enforce said laws.

    If only it was a perfect world...


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    ^^ Thank you for being real about this.

    I just watched Moyers Journal tonight and found someone who unfortunately I can believe, Kevin Phillips. I say unfortunately because his bad news for us is real bad news.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    If the mortgage business had been a free market, this mess wouldn't have happened. It was govt. meddling that created the whole fiasco. Fannie and Freddie were mandated to make sub-prime loans and were able to do so because the govt. was willing to assume the risk. If the banks had to assume the risk of those sub-prime loans they never would have been made. Its easy to gamble when you're playing with someone else's money.
    Bearing the gifts beyond price, almost free

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    It essentially was a free market, and they got greedy, allowing banks to take riskier and riskier loans, well beyond the standards the Fed should have allowed. Competition among the banks trying to get a greater share of the market was the driving force. It met very little resistance until it hit the ceiling. Then all those support systems crashed too.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    ^^^ unfortunately for US taxpayers, DB is correct on this issue. Since 1993 the US Congress was the de-facto regulator of FNM and FRE. Congress passed the Community Redevelopment act which essentially endorsed 'reverse red-lining' and instituted financial penalties on banks who did NOT make X number of loans to low income borrowers of questionable creditworthiness ( besides media charges of racism being levelled against bank management ). Clinton's HUD director set down FNM and FRE mandates to lower creditworthiness standards in order to achieve the political objective of increasing the percentage of minority home ownership. These are clear examples of gov't mandates forcing financial institutions to make questionable mortgage loans that they would not have made (and did not make) prior to these mandates being put into effect.

    Yes there was a major element of greed once the mandates were in place ... because the mandates created an incredible amount of Moral Hazard re the writing of shaky 'subprime' loans by private sector banks when 100% of the risk could be passed on to FNM and FRE (with the full blessing of politicians pushing the increased minority / low income home ownership agenda)


    Libertarian economic principles say that A. people who can't afford to become homeowners shouldn't become homeowners, B. that the gov't has no business actively participating in the mortgage lending business, and C. gov't has no business confiscating money from prudent and financially responsible citizens and transferring it to other less prudent and financially irresponsible citizens to mitigate their losses.

    Libertarian economic principles also say that O.P.M. situations are always bad, whether perpetrated by a gov't agency or by the private sector, because they sever the link between actions and consequences !

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    The problem with your explanation is that, though detailed, it does not go far enough into the entire story, especially into the individual responsibility that is at the root cause of this unholy mess. You stopped when your sensibilities have been crossed. Because (1) reasonable risk limits were not incorporated into business and givernment regulatory practices, millions of speculators bought and/or built properties merely to FLIP for potentially great profits (until...), this 'un'-regulation driving up the buy/build markets because they were able to get loans based on the shaky foundation of speculation. Also (2) financial organizations were able to get very high leverage in margin accounts which were unprecedented a few years ago. Also (3) energy/fuel speculators were also similarly able to run up the prices we are now paying, well above the OPEC price fixing. All this occurred because of the LACK of sufficient/ineffective* government regulating -- practices which would make a responsible financial community, now apparently dead, to turn over in their graves. In light of the widespread financial instability and the final recognition of the consequences of these unmitigated risks, the financial houses find themselves not able to pass along these bad debts by liquidating them.
    -----------
    *In my opinion ineffective, insufficient and minimal regulations are much the same. Regulations are ALWAYS needed in a capitalist society, due the Golden Rule -- those with the gold will make the rules. And those rules are at least unethical and exclusionary to those not in the capitalist club already and are designed to keep others from being able to lift themselves. Those pre-Great Depression and Robber Baron practices are not lost on me.

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    Last edited by threlayer; 09-24-2008 at 10:53 AM. Reason: clarity
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Libertarian economic principles say that A. people who can't afford to become homeowners shouldn't become homeowners,
    No it doesn't. Libertarian economic principles say that anyone that wants a home and can come up with enough money to buy a home, should become a homeowner. Under Libertarian economic principles, if a lender is willing to lend someone making $15,000 a year, $200,000 to buy a house, they would be allowed to do it.

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    No it doesn't. Libertarian economic principles say that anyone that wants a home and can come up with enough money to buy a home, should become a homeowner. Under Libertarian economic principles, if a lender is willing to lend someone making $15,000 a year, $200,000 to buy a house, they would be allowed to do it.
    And in a free market no lender would be willing to assume that kind of risk. But if they know that they can make the loan and that the govt will assume the risk they'll collect their fees and sell the paper to the govt. But that is no longer a free market.
    Bearing the gifts beyond price, almost free

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    The problem with your explanation is that, though detailed, it does not go far enough into the entire story, especially into the individual responsibility that is at the root cause of this unholy mess. You stopped when your sensibilities have been crossed. Because (1) reasonable risk limits were not incorporated into business and givernment regulatory practices, millions of speculators bought and/or built properties merely to FLIP for potentially great profits (until...), this 'un'-regulation driving up the buy/build markets because they were able to get loans based on the shaky foundation of speculation. Also (2) financial organizations were able to get very high leverage in margin accounts which were unprecedented a few years ago. Also (3) energy/fuel speculators were also similarly able to run up the prices we are not paying, well above the OPEC price fixing. All this occurred because of the LACK of sufficient/ineffective* government regulating -- practices which would make a responsible financial community, now apparently dead, to turn over in their graves. In light of the widespread financial instability and the final recognition of the consequences of these unmitigated risks, the financial houses find themselves not able to pass along these bad debts by liquidating them.
    -----------
    *In my opinion ineffective, insufficient and minimal regulations are much the same. Regulations are ALWAYS needed in a capitalist society, due the Golden Rule -- those with the gold will make the rules. And those rules are at least unethical and exclusionary to those not in the capitalist club already and are designed to keep others from being able to lift themselves. Those pre-Great Depression and Robber Baron practices are not lost on me.

    -
    You're partially correct. There was too much speculation but the "house flippers" were only a small part of the problem. The bigger cause was too many bad loans to people with little to no realistic hope of ever paying them back.
    You're certainly correct about the fiangling with margin requirements and that is 100% the fault of the Bushies like Cox.
    As for oil speculation, there was certainly some BUT that bubble burst. As all bubbles do, sooner or later.

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by DB Cooper View Post
    And in a free market no lender would be willing to assume that kind of risk. But if they know that they can make the loan and that the govt will assume the risk they'll collect their fees and sell the paper to the govt. But that is no longer a free market.
    There were plenty of private financial institutions that lost large amounts of money from making bad loans. The free market didn't prevent Citigroup from making over $22 billion in bad loans in one quarter.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=18121669

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    Probably about 40% of people on the internet are Libertarian. It's odd, in real life you never meet any (at least not in this country, though I tend to think it's pretty much an American thing anyway).

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    There were plenty of private financial institutions that lost large amounts of money from making bad loans. The free market didn't prevent Citigroup from making over $22 billion in bad loans in one quarter.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...oryId=18121669
    Again mortgage lending wasn't a free market. The govt. mandated sub-prime loans and assumed the risk for many of them. This increased demand for houses. Increased demand drove up prices. This allowed banks to assume more risk in making sub-prime loans because the value of the asset (the house) was rising and they assumed would cover their risk if they didn't sell the paper. Combine that with the govt. making "cheap" money available and many institutions got greedy and over-extended themselves. But when the bubble burst, they got caught with their pants down. In a free market they never would have gotten in that deep because the profits wouldn't have justified the risks they took.
    Bearing the gifts beyond price, almost free

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by DB Cooper View Post
    Again mortgage lending wasn't a free market. The govt. mandated sub-prime loans and assumed the risk for many of them. This increased demand for houses. Increased demand drove up prices. This allowed banks to assume more risk in making sub-prime loans because the value of the asset (the house) was rising and they assumed would cover their risk if they didn't sell the paper. Combine that with the govt. making "cheap" money available and many institutions got greedy and over-extended themselves. But when the bubble burst, they got caught with their pants down. In a free market they never would have gotten in that deep because the profits wouldn't have justified the risks they took.
    I just cannot believe that the semi-poor people who took advantage of subprime loans to grab some cheap housing are responsible for the brunt of this mess. The stats are just NOT THERE. To me it was (1) those who grabbed onto an already overpriced house in hopes the bubble would inflate forever, or unitl they retired with a huge nest-egg, who ALSO knew that they could not afford this with anything other than a sub-prime loan with their marginal income, and (2) the speculative house flippers who dumped out of the market when they became upside down before they could sell their rehabs. Factor in the oil problem and poor risk management, and you have the current perfect storm. It's not all the Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Authoritarians, Greenies, Auto Manufacturers, Oil Companies, Beaurocrats, or Welfare Moms; it's all of us trying to live beyond our means using cheap imported goods, effectively exploiting our neighbors out of jobs. We have met the enemy and it is us.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    Yes, I am a libertarian.
    "Can we read it on the Smoking Gun? "

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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ unfortunately for US taxpayers, DB is correct on this issue. Since 1993 the US Congress was the de-facto regulator of FNM and FRE. Congress passed the Community Redevelopment act which essentially endorsed 'reverse red-lining' and instituted financial penalties on banks who did NOT make X number of loans to low income borrowers of questionable creditworthiness ( besides media charges of racism being levelled against bank management ). Clinton's HUD director set down FNM and FRE mandates to lower creditworthiness standards in order to achieve the political objective of increasing the percentage of minority home ownership. These are clear examples of gov't mandates forcing financial institutions to make questionable mortgage loans that they would not have made (and did not make) prior to these mandates being put into effect.
    Wait, here you said it was in the 1990s, in another thread your link said it occured in the 1970s, get your lies straight.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Anyone Still A Libertarian?

    Quote Originally Posted by flickad View Post
    Probably about 40% of people on the internet are Libertarian. It's odd, in real life you never meet any (at least not in this country, though I tend to think it's pretty much an American thing anyway).
    Hehe, true.

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