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Thread: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

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    Default Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    I see lots of discussion on SW concerning "appropriate" boundaries and/or behavior between buyers and sellers in the stripping industry. And justifiably so. Let's face it, upon entering a SC, conventional societal norms a waived at the door and we're left to redefine what behaviors are "appropriate." Different states, different clubs, different dancers, different patrons, all have varied "norms" of acceptable contact.

    Strippers are to adult entertainment what actors are to theater. Patrons pay to see each performer play their part (there's no free lunch). Once a stripper presses her breast against a man's face, dragging her nipple across his cheek, she establishes the fact that breast/cheek contact is "appropriate" as part of the lap dance transaction.

    So the question is: if breast/cheek contact is "appropriate" what difference does it make who initiates the contact? When engaging in a LD (not "giving" as that implies it was "free") the dancer presses her breasts into him that's "appropriate" though if he were to plow his face into her cleavage it would be "inappropriate." Same breast against same cheek, but with very different results.

    The patron is paying for the breast/cheek contact. It would appear the dancer is comfortable selling that contact as long as she's initiating it. If her objective (hustle) is to separate him from as many dollars as possible, and breast/cheek contact has been established as an "appropriate" exchange, and he's willing to pay, why does she refuse the transaction when he initiates the contact?

    Seems sort of funny that woman dressed in a G-String who moments earlier was dragging her nipple across a man's cheek, would some how be outraged were the same man to indulge himself by nuzzling his face into her chest.

    Love to hear a dancer's perspective on the psychology of navigating the porous boundaries bodily contact while performing in SC.

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    Veteran Member Rockell's Avatar
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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    I can't speak for everyone, but my view on this is that since SHE is the one "performing", she controls the action. It is the patron's place to just let her perform for him and do her thing without interrupting by initiating contact. The patron paid her to dance for him (however she may chose to do), not for him to be able to touch her.

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    Thank you. That was exactly the kind of insight I was hoping I'd get. Men can only project their own view points. I think of stage dancing as the "performance" in that it's literally on a "stage" with lights, music, applause, the modern day equivalent of burlesque etc. As a revenue source, stage dancing is small potatoes compared to LD. I think of it as a loss leader, or the marketing scheme a dancer uses to demonstrate/sell her talent.

    I hate to date myself so but in the mid 1970's as a teenager I remember going to SC and it was all stage dancing. I don't know when LD came on the scene. Perhaps some older veterans could shed some light on that.

    I used to marvel at a woman's courage and confidence when she first accepts the challenge to dance nearly naked in a provocative manner before an audience of strangers. But then I realized only her visual boundaries were in play. I now marvel at her courage to engage her patron with the physical contact common in lap dancing. Stripping is exemplifies the risk/reward aspect of capitalism at its finest. Willing buyer, willing seller.

    Stripping is not prostitution. They're selling sex-appeal, not sex. By controlling/initiating the contact, I assume the dancer retains her integrity by maintaining some degree of boundary. Interesting how the dancer feels she's selling a "performance" which may include some incidental contact and the patron who feels he's buying some contact which may include some incidental dancing. Well, not exactly, but you get my point. He isn't paying $20 for the three minute LD he just saw on stage for tip money. Seems there's a "visual" performance and a "visual/tactile" performance.

    I can see where a dancer feels entitled to sit on a man's hand as she straddles him. That incidental contact, initiated by her, excites him to continue buying what she's selling. But she doesn't feel he's entitled to reach out and fondle her ass cheek. Again, same cheek, same hand, but initiates the contact makes all the difference.

    The dancers who know me, know I'll spend $50-$150 in an evening. Not a huge spender, but not a barfly either. My experience has varied depending on what club, what state I'm in. In the limited contact club I frequent in KC (with no VIP room), the dancers will place my hands on their hips and any incidental ass cheek contact is fine. What they don't want I for me to grab a big handful of ass cheek. That said I've been in private rooms in the St. Louis area where you were free to touch anything that wasn't pink.

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    Quote Originally Posted by mcmillan View Post
    Let's face it, upon entering a SC, conventional societal norms a waived at the door and we're left to redefine what behaviors are "appropriate."
    I disagree. Conventional societal norms apply in a stripclub. They have bouncers for people who forget that. No still means no, and you may not touch without permission. Which norms did you think were exempt?

    Seems sort of funny that woman dressed in a G-String who moments earlier was dragging her nipple across a man's cheek, would some how be outraged were the same man to indulge himself by nuzzling his face into her chest.
    So it's open season on dancers because they dress sexy? Also, where does your logic end as far as: she did ____, so I can do ____? We don't make assumptions like that out on the street, why should it be different inside the club?

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    Again, thanks for your insight.

    Perhaps I over generalize about societal norms being waived at the door. Certainly, "no" menans no, and please and thank you are the standards of polite society. I don't violate a woman's boundaries inside or outside the club.

    The point of my thread was to discuss the porosity of those boundaries.

    The norms I consider exempt would include: 1) Staring at a woman's breast; 2) Sliding cash into the elastic of her G-String; 3) Having a woman I've know for all of 15 minutes stradle my lap and press her naked breast into my face. Those are all boundries or norms we as buyers and sellers agree to waive inside the club. The tacit agreement is: the seller displays for compensation and buyer willingly pays per view. The better/longer the view/conversation/experience/contact, the better the pay. Patrons compensate dancers for the privelge of exempting the patron from societal restraints. That's really the essence of the business.

    So no, it's not "fair game" to be inappropriate. It is fair game to explore the various boundaries/expressions/exchanges the dancer and her patron establish inside the club. It's not exactly,. "she did ____, so I can do ____?" But they share a mutual interest in exploring new boundaries each find rewarding in their exchange. If they didn't, it wouldn't work. That's why "regulars" are valuble. Everyone's comfortable with what's being exchanged.

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    Quote Originally Posted by mcmillan View Post
    Perhaps I over generalize about societal norms being waived at the door. Certainly, "no" menans no, and please and thank you are the standards of polite society. I don't violate a woman's boundaries inside or outside the club.
    I'm glad you mentioned the politeness/courtesy part. It's sad how often that part is left at the front door.

    The point of my thread was to discuss the porosity of those boundaries.
    I have experienced boundaries changing in the course of a dance or two. Once the dancer becomes comfortable with you, she may relax a little, or reward you for good behaviour. I always ask a new dancer what she is comfortable with at the outset. I don't want to spend any time trying to see how far I can go/push her. That just takes both of us out of the moment.

    That's why "regulars" are valuble. Everyone's comfortable with what's being exchanged.
    In this case, the boundaries have mostly become a certainty. But even there, over time, things can get a little more intimate, but it is always (or should be) the dancer's move to make first imo.

    I suspect you were looking more for dancer input, so I'll back out of the discussion at this point and just observe.
    Last edited by hockeybobby; 10-18-2008 at 09:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    Quote Originally Posted by Rockell View Post
    I can't speak for everyone, but my view on this is that since SHE is the one "performing", she controls the action. It is the patron's place to just let her perform for him and do her thing without interrupting by initiating contact. The patron paid her to dance for him (however she may chose to do), not for him to be able to touch her.

    Yup , agreed
    In Atlanta looking for a new place/club to call my own ... be back in Sarasota from time to time because I love the Cheetah xoxo

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    To use your acting analogy - whilst an actor may initiate audience participation during a show that does not mean that the audience is free to interrupt whenever they choose during a performance. The audience knows that they must wait for the actor to invite that participation each time throughout the show in order to maintain the integrity of the production.

    A dance is a performance - one which feigns sexual attraction for an agreed price - therefore in order for the dancer to continue her performance the customer must abide by the rules of audience necessary for the dancer to continue their performance as set by the dancer, which means you respond as explicitly dictated by the dancer or you leave... with the help of the bouncers if necessary.

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    ^^ I love this , its so true .....

    Its funny because whenever a custy tries to touch me , usually I just tell them to just sit there and enjoy the show .....
    In Atlanta looking for a new place/club to call my own ... be back in Sarasota from time to time because I love the Cheetah xoxo

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    Quote Originally Posted by mcmillan View Post
    I see lots of discussion on SW concerning "appropriate" boundaries and/or behavior between buyers and sellers in the stripping industry. And justifiably so. Let's face it, upon entering a SC, conventional societal norms a waived at the door and we're left to redefine what behaviors are "appropriate." Different states, different clubs, different dancers, different patrons, all have varied "norms" of acceptable contact.
    Sorry but I don't buy this for a second. Just because you are in a strip club and the women are naked or near naked does not mean you get to redefine what is appropriate or inappropriate behavior.


    Quote Originally Posted by mcmillan View Post
    So the question is: if breast/cheek contact is "appropriate" what difference does it make who initiates the contact? When engaging in a LD (not "giving" as that implies it was "free") the dancer presses her breasts into him that's "appropriate" though if he were to plow his face into her cleavage it would be "inappropriate." Same breast against same cheek, but with very different results.
    Whatever contact is appropriate is determined by the dancer, not the customer. You are free to spend on whomever you like but the assumption that what you can touch is an agreement reached by the two parties involved would be erroneous. The dancer has her limits in place before you even walk into the club.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcmillan View Post
    The patron is paying for the breast/cheek contact. It would appear the dancer is comfortable selling that contact as long as she's initiating it. If her objective (hustle) is to separate him from as many dollars as possible, and breast/cheek contact has been established as an "appropriate" exchange, and he's willing to pay, why does she refuse the transaction when he initiates the contact?
    Again you are making an assumption. How do you know what is acceptable unless you ask or she tells you (or demonstrates)? Did she let you touch her breasts on the last visit? If so then it is a good assumption. If this is your first dance with the lady you have no way of knowing what level of contact she will allow.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcmillan View Post
    Seems sort of funny that woman dressed in a G-String who moments earlier was dragging her nipple across a man's cheek, would some how be outraged were the same man to indulge himself by nuzzling his face into her chest.
    Funny? Why? Her dragging her nipple across your face is not the same thing as you "nuzzling" your face into her chest. If she rubs her crotch does that mean it's OK for you to rub it as well?

    There is a lot of instinct involved with a favorite dancer in a favorite club. That being said, when you are with a new lady it is never a good idea to assume what is allowed or not allowed based on what you have done with other ladies or in other clubs.
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    Sophia_Starina is a sensible stripper...Naked all the way.....
    Quote Originally Posted by tempest666 View Post
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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    ^^ "Sorry but I don't buy this for a second. Just because you are in a strip club and the women are naked or near naked does not mean you get to redefine what is appropriate or inappropriate behavior."

    I got the impresson that the OP was referring to the conventional bahavior outside the club, vs acceptable behavior in the club. for example if I gave a person outside the club a dollar but in some sort of limited public view, I highly doubt that she would expose her breasts for me just a few inches away. I do not think he was referring to uninvited, non-permissive behavior you implied.

    (I am neglecting the "$20 for a blow-job" in a dark alley or car scenario.)
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer;1742041what is appropriate or inappropriate behavior."
    ^^ "Sorry but I don't buy this for a second. Just because you are in a strip club and the women are naked or near naked does not mean you get to redefine

    I got the impresson that the OP was referring to the conventional bahavior outside the club, vs acceptable behavior in the club. for example if I gave a person outside the club a dollar but in some sort of limited public view, I highly doubt that she would expose her breasts for me just a few inches away. I do not think he was referring to uninvited, non-permissive behavior you implied.

    (I am neglecting the "$20 for a blow-job" in a dark alley or car scenario.)
    I got the same impression. I do not however agree with his basic premise. Environment is inconsequential when it comes to what is acceptable behavior between a man and a woman.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine View Post
    yoda, I want you so bad it aches in the swimsuit area.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophia_Starina View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by tempest666 View Post
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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    ^^ Would you let a strange attractive barely clothed woman sit on your lap and slide around in public?
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    ^^ Would you let a strange attractive barely clothed woman sit on your lap and slide around in public?
    Dude, you just are not getting it. It is not about weather I would let a naked woman slide on my lap in public. It IS about the fact that just because we are NOT in public does not mean that I can lick her boobs without making sure it is OK first. Common courtesy and respect are not left outside when you walk into a strip club.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine View Post
    yoda, I want you so bad it aches in the swimsuit area.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophia_Starina View Post
    Sophia_Starina is a sensible stripper...Naked all the way.....
    Quote Originally Posted by tempest666 View Post
    Double team! 2 latinas with big tits!!

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    As it is me doing the dance I like to be 100% in control of it. A man with manners will respect that and let me do my thing.

    That's why it's a lap dance and the guy is paying rather than a situation where two people are just fooling around.
    It's my body and I decide who does what to it and when - this is regardless of club rules.
    If someone touches my body without my prior consent that is assault and u better believe I will react.
    If a guy chooses to take a liberty with my body and just touch it without my consent then I'm assuming he wont mind me taking a liberty with his ball sack and ploughing the heel of my 7 inch stiletto right through it.
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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us View Post
    Environment is inconsequential when it comes to what is acceptable behavior between a man and a woman.
    Environment is inconsequential????? Environment is EVERYTHING in a strip club context.

    The same exact man and woman:

    IN THE CLUB: Both people will act very horny for each other. One will be acting, one won't. OUTSIDE THE CLUB: the woman won't even want to acknowledge that she recognizes the man. The man will want to act the same way, or alternatively, will want to stalk her. ENVIRONMENT: everything.

    IN THE CLUB: the woman gets naked for the man. OUTSIDE THE CLUB: hahahahaha. ENVIRONMENT: everything.

    IN THE CLUB: the man willingly hands over copious amounts of cash. OUTSIDE THE CLUB: if he does so it's a completely different (sugar daddy) transaction. ENVIRONMENT: everything.

    IN THE CLUB: dirty talk, flirting, sophia's "I talk about fucking and about how wet my pussy is getting." OUTSIDE THE CLUB: see first example above. ENVIRONMENT: everything.

    IN THE CLUB: how much a man touches is a complex delicate dance involving club norms, the woman's sales technique and goals, her personal boundaries and morals, the man's aggressiveness and/or timidness, how much money he has spent/will spend/implies he will spend. OUTSIDE THE CLUB: Touch? I don't even know you. Police! ENVIRONMENT: everything.

    I don't even know what you could possibly be thinking, yoda.

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    I have experienced boundaries changing in the course of a dance or two. Once the dancer becomes comfortable with you, she may relax a little, or reward you for good behaviour. I always ask a new dancer what she is comfortable with at the outset. I don't want to spend any time trying to see how far I can go/push her. That just takes both of us out of the moment.
    It's too bad more customers don't think this way or figure this out. Kudos to you, HB.
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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    I rarely agree with hb because he is Canadian and a Marxist but in this one instance I will It makes way more sense to take the long view and work out the arrangements in a spirit of mutual respect and cooperation as opposed to being immediately preemptive. The slow and steady approach works much better for both parties IMO.

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    Quote Originally Posted by FBR View Post
    I rarely agree with hb because he is Canadian and a Marxist but in this one instance I will

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    Quote Originally Posted by Everyman View Post
    I don't even know what you could possibly be thinking, yoda.
    Clearly you don't but that's because nothing that you just talked about has anything to do with my point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine View Post
    yoda, I want you so bad it aches in the swimsuit area.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sophia_Starina View Post
    Sophia_Starina is a sensible stripper...Naked all the way.....
    Quote Originally Posted by tempest666 View Post
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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us View Post
    Clearly you don't but that's because nothing that you just talked about has anything to do with my point.
    Perhaps not, but not only does my post have the benefit of being true, it has everything to do with the OP's point, which it appears you are not getting.

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    Quote Originally Posted by yoda57us View Post
    Dude, you just are not getting it. It is not about weather I would let a naked woman slide on my lap in public. It IS about the fact that just because we are NOT in public does not mean that I can lick her boobs without making sure it is OK first. Common courtesy and respect are not left outside when you walk into a strip club.
    But of course you need some permission to be more 'familiar.' I'm getting it but I'm talking on a broader plane than you are. In a strip club you are in public, legally, and sometimes physically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Everyman View Post
    Environment is inconsequential????? Environment is EVERYTHING in a strip club context.
    I agree with Everyman. Yoda you are answering correctly, but you are answering a different issue than others here understand, I believe.
    Last edited by threlayer; 10-19-2008 at 07:00 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    Quote Originally Posted by jaizaine View Post
    As it is me doing the dance I like to be 100% in control of it. A man with manners will respect that and let me do my thing.

    ...If someone touches my body without my prior consent that is assault and u better believe I will react.
    If a guy chooses to take a liberty with my body and just touch it without my consent then I'm assuming he wont mind me taking a liberty with his ball sack and ploughing the heel of my 7 inch stiletto right through it.
    If you mean sexual contact, to be sure. But if you mean any, such as just incidental or minor eg, an arm, then ... well, that reminds me of a touchy bitch I had a dance with here where I ended it abruptly. And I am always respectful.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    Wow folks, I really appreciate the discussion my thread initiated. This is a great forum where all can express their unvarnished opinions. How cool is that?

    I'm a gentleman and would never fondle/grope a woman without her willing participation (either out of mutual desire with a date or in the club for for the agreed upon purchased privilege). If for no other reason, the bouncer would likely kick my ass out the door.

    Simply because she chose to be a stripper doesn't mean she forfeits her right to have her personal boundaries respected. But by its very nature, stripping puts those boundaries in play. Obviously she discarded the boundaries of clothing when she strolled through the club and mounted the stage sporting nothing more than her G-String. She willingly accepts financial compensation in exchange for her partial nudity and the open invitation for all those inside the club to stare unabashedly at her god given beauty. That's the essence of a SC.

    Flirtatious conversation and provocative dancing are but icing on the cake. Men's interest/desire for her dancing and conversation are very real, but I dare say would soon wane were it not for her nudity. It's the combination of all three that keeps the hustle going. They each feed on one another.

    They're strippers, not prostitutes. They're selling sex-appeal and fantasy, not sex. So while a lap dance involves a fair degree of overt bodily contact, my guess is psychologically it's not so much the contact as it is their control that's important. Stripping isn't prostitution, but it's got to a first cousin. I mean really, when a woman's wearing nothing but a G-String and climbs in your lap to press her breast against your face for cash, let's not delude ourselves into thinking this is belly dancing or performance art.

    Again this only my guess, but I gather if she's doing it to him (pressing her tits into his face), she doesn't feel she's prostituting herself or being taken advantage of. On the other hand, if she feels he's doing it to her (pressing his face into her tits) then she feels taken advantage of.

    I was in hopes of hearing from more women on this aspect of porous boundaries. It's like their boundaries are porous, but only in one direction. Which is fine, I was just curious about the mindset behind that dynamic.

    Let's face it, stripping is a pretty sweet deal if she has gets her hustle down and knows how to work it. Strip clubs are similar to topless beaches. In both cases there's a lot of bare flesh exposed. In both cases women willingly display their god given beauty and the rules for both settings are you're free to look, but not touch. Only in a SC the women get paid. Like I said, it's a pretty sweet deal if you she has the talent. It's one thing to have a nice body, but it's another thing altogether to "work it" and hustle money from the lads in the club. That's the difference in a "good" stripper and a "great" stripper.

    I never meant to imply I was out to grope/fondle the dancer without her tacit approval.

    There's a certain risk/reward aspect to stripping. Even in the safety of the club she risks a modest degree of vulnerability while lap dancing. The more daring she is, the more porous her boundaries, potentially the greater her reward (more dances, bigger tip), but nothing's guaranteed. She also risks giving up eight hours of her day at a job with no assurance she'll get any compensation (slow night, poor tippers in the recession, etc.).

    The good news for strippers is they get to choose who they sit with. The bad news is it may not be you. But the flip side is also true. The patron gets to choose who he buys his dances from. The bad news is may not be her.

  25. #25
    Veteran Member bsteve's Avatar
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    Default Re: Navigating the Porous Boundaries Bodily Contact

    I don’t know if there is really all that much disagreement about how a dancer and a customer should behave -- the disagreements appear to be about semantics rather than substance.

    My view: there is no duality of acceptable behavior (in SC and out of SC), but rather a whole spectrum of acceptable behavior depending on the relationship between two parties (be it a man and a woman, or two men, or two corporations). The seller should let the customer know what the seller is willing to do and what he/she can’t. If a customer goes to a French restaurant and orders Chinese food, the seller should let him know that the seller can’t do that. If a customer hires a plumber to do electrical work, the plumber should let the customer know that the plumber wont do that. Similarly, if a customer in a SC expects a dancer to do something that the dancer does not offer, then the dancer should let the customer know it.

    Or am I missing something?

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