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Thread: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

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    Default these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    the brunt of the article points out that, besides the ongoing loss of high paying union jobs in the auto industry, America is now experiencing both a huge loss of jobs in 'high tech' industries as well as a huge loss of jobs in the 'investment banking' industry. None of these high paying jobs are likely to ever return ( in the US anyhow ).

    Arguably, these developments point to a major decline in both earnings and opportunities for the US 'middle class' as a whole. Arguably, this will be the catalyst for a fundamental change in American socioeconomic structure ... with the 'hollowing out' of the US 'middle class' leaving America as a nation divided between the rich 'elites' and the 'powerless' poor. And arguably this trend will be accelerated by the results of the upcoming US presidential election.

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    And arguably this trend will be accelerated by the results of the upcoming US presidential election.
    You seem to be overlooking the policies that took us to this place to start with. I see no reason to continue with those policies, fundamental change is needed.

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Head View Post
    You seem to be overlooking the policies that took us to this place to start with. I see no reason to continue with those policies, fundamental change is needed.
    How do you suggest we "keep" the high tech and investment banking jobs ?

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    How do you suggest we "keep" the high tech and investment banking jobs ?
    The way things are going these days, it won't matter anymore. They got the high tech jobs and like anything else that can be done on a keyboard, the banker jobs will wander over there too.

    Then we will look around at our walmart and car wash jobs and wonder if maybe paying for our lifestyle is a better idea after all.

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    How do you suggest we "keep" the high tech and investment banking jobs ?
    Perhaps we can take another look at some of those free trade agreements that opened up the tidal wave of jobs being outsourced?

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Head View Post
    Perhaps we can take another look at some of those free trade agreements that opened up the tidal wave of jobs being outsourced?
    This. also, the tax breaks for outsourcing. Fuck all of that. Let's keep our jobs and our money here. I know isolationism isn't really plausible in this day and age but we could try to stop getting into every single issue that comes up in the world, esp in the middle east. Let those fuckers blow themselves up. That's not very Liberal but I don't care.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine View Post
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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Head View Post
    Perhaps we can take another look at some of those free trade agreements that opened up the tidal wave of jobs being outsourced?
    Capital idea ! Start a trade war and really generate a real Depression. Brilliant, Richard, just brilliant.

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Capital idea ! Start a trade war and really generate a real Depression. Brilliant, Richard, just brilliant.
    Yeah, things have been working out so well as they are, there's no need to change is there? I guess it's better to just say fuck it and sign more "free trade" pacts that will provide even more cheap labor, great plan Stoner, great plan. Let's have a race to the bottom.

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Head View Post
    Yeah, things have been working out so well as they are, there's no need to change is there? I guess it's better to just say fuck it and sign more "free trade" pacts that will provide even more cheap labor, great plan Stoner, great plan. Let's have a race to the bottom.
    Free trade has next to nothing to do with our current problems. Even Paul
    Krugman and Robert Reich are free traders. Please point to one free trade agreement under which we are getting screwed and explain HOW and WHY you claim that is occurring.

    Smoot- Hawley started a world-wide trade war and prevented us, the USA, from being able to export our goods. And you want a re-run ?

    As Krugman proved in his Nobel Prize winning research, labor costs are NOT the determining factor for industrial location. Plenty of Americans are gainfully employed at well paying jobs making cars. In Tennessee and Mississippi. Making Hondas and Toyotas.

    We have been net winners from NAFTA. Our biggest trading partner is C A N A D A.
    Hardly a "cheap" 3rd World economy.

    Rather than try to prop up industries that can't hack it in the global economy; we ought to re-train the workers.

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Free trade has next to nothing to do with our current problems. Even Paul
    Krugman and Robert Reich are free traders. Please point to one free trade agreement under which we are getting screwed and explain HOW and WHY you claim that is occurring.

    Smoot- Hawley started a world-wide trade war and prevented us, the USA, from being able to export our goods. And you want a re-run ?

    As Krugman proved in his Nobel Prize winning research, labor costs are NOT the determining factor for industrial location. Plenty of Americans are gainfully employed at well paying jobs making cars. In Tennessee and Mississippi. Making Hondas and Toyotas.

    We have been net winners from NAFTA. Our biggest trading partner is C A N A D A.
    Hardly a "cheap" 3rd World economy.

    Rather than try to prop up industries that can't hack it in the global economy; we ought to re-train the workers.
    Yea - we'll train Joe Six Pack as a financial analyst or software designer...

    Oh yea - those are going over seas too!

    You talk about making cars - how about we talk about textile and cloths manufacturers? Locks? Silverware? Plates? Furniture?

    The list goes on!

    The only thing we have gotten out of free trade is low income jobs and huge fucking trade debt (probably made up of the equity of many people's homes.)

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    You talk about making cars -
    Actually there is now a veritable race underway between the US auto companies going bankrupt on union employee / retiree benefit costs, and the Japanese auto companies with assembly plants in the USA closing those plants due to rapidly falling profits (as measured in Japanese Yen).

    The only thing we have gotten out of free trade is low income jobs and huge fucking trade debt
    that's not true. Thanks to reduced prices of Chinese goods (including food) depressing the 'official' consumer price index, the US gov't has saved a ton of money on welfare / social security costs


    And financial analysis shows that the huge trade debt does indeed translate into huge individual debt for working class and middle class Americans. In the past 25 years, savings rates have dropped from ~10% to LESS THAN ZERO. Credit card balances have increased from ~1.5% of income to 15% of income. I won't even open the Pandora's Box of home equity extraction as yet another source of increased individual debt.


    The 'tin foil hat' crowd will tell you that the only 'safe' jobs left in America for working class / middle class Americans will be public service jobs ... where the money for their paychecks can be newly printed each week by the FED.

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    There are lots of jobs not returning to the US. I agree that free trade is necessary for wealth creation. Okay, that said, what the US needs to do is look at the market as a global reality. There are areas where we can compete and areas where we are not competitive (such as manufacturing).

    What we need to do as a nation is figure out what we do very well, and promote those industries. Green technology is booming in the US, and although Germany is currently ahead of us in implementing renewable energy we could easily jump into the lead if federal funding is placed in that sector and our young people are educated to the levels necessary for installation of wind farms and solar farms all the way up to the level of research scientist to continue to stay ahead of the curve.

    Energy is a resource that is in short supply, BTW, and we could be the world's leading energy producer in a few short years if we get our shit together and quit trying to squeeze more oil out of the ground.

    And that is just one industry that is in high demand on a global scale. We're pretty good at bio-tech, too. We've also got some kick ass engineers that call America home.

    Ultimately, if we are the world's resource for energy, there would be no reason why we couldn't get back to the status of an economic superpower. It is within our grasp, but all the conservatives can see is the campaign donations from big oil and auto manufacturers, leading to the chant of the uneducated masses of "Drill, baby Drill!"

    Those people either lack imagination or IQ points or both. I heard someone say that drilling for more oil now is a little like building a typewriter factory in 1989. That is old technology. We need to look ahead and not try to legislate the reversal of time, fer gawdsake!


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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Energy is a resource that is in short supply, BTW, and we could be the world's leading energy producer in a few short years if we get our shit together and quit trying to squeeze more oil out of the ground.
    in point of fact, it is only CLEAN energy that is in short supply. China is starting up two new power plants every week fueled by dirt cheap high sulfur coal. In other words, the clean energy market is an artificially created entity that really only exists in 'first world' countries whose gov'ts have enacted and enforced bans on the use of dirty but cheap energy sources, and whose gov'ts have enacted tax funded subsidies in order to make clean energy appear affordable / profitable. In other words, China could care less about wasting money on US solar panels / wind generators for their own use. China does however have a large interest in producing solar panels which can be sold to some Americans with the help of tax money subsidies paid for by other Americans.

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    ^^It is really sad about China, because they really have a lot to lose from global warming. They are going to be hit very hard in the future. China only has maybe a decade's worth of fresh water from what remains of the glaciers.

    Here's an article from a year ago that is all about the threat to China's population from global warming: http://www.china.org.cn/english/environment/230473.htm


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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    ^^^ but unfortunately for the future of clean energy industries, the Chinese gov't really don't give a shit if a few million peasants die of starvation / thirst 10 years from now. They DO care about 'happy' peasants earning $2 an hour and worrying about buying their first motorcycle right now ... as opposed to 'unhappy' peasants earning $1.50 a DAY and plotting revolution !!!

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Well, I suppose they can concern themselves with revolution today or elimination in ten years. Ten years isn't very long. Not when thinking about all of Chinese history prior to today.


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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ but unfortunately for the future of clean energy industries, the Chinese gov't really don't give a shit if a few million peasants die of starvation / thirst 10 years from now. They DO care about 'happy' peasants earning $2 an hour and worrying about buying their first motorcycle right now ... as opposed to 'unhappy' peasants earning $1.50 a DAY and plotting revolution !!!
    Meh...they could afford to lose a few million people. I keed, I keed. Seriously, that's one of the problems with having a HUGE population without the infrastructure to maintain it. China is just now getting to where much of the western world has been for years (decades!). They are playing catch-up but thy're leaving their own people behind. The fact that they will run out of vital resources in a few short years should scare the shit out of the entire world. If China goes to shit, a lot of things go with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katrine View Post
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    In other words: Boo-motherfucking-hoo

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Free trade has next to nothing to do with our current problems.
    I guess I should have use the term "fair trade" not "free trade". Either way we can't keep signing the trade agreements that offer no protection to our workers (or the environment for that matter).

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Even Paul Krugman and Robert Reich are free traders. Please point to one free trade agreement under which we are getting screwed and explain HOW and WHY you claim that is occurring.
    Since when do you agree with anything Paul Krugman has to say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Smoot- Hawley started a world-wide trade war and prevented us, the USA, from being able to export our goods. And you want a re-run ?
    Who's talking about a world-wide trade war?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    As Krugman proved in his Nobel Prize winning research, labor costs are NOT the determining factor for industrial location. Plenty of Americans are gainfully employed at well paying jobs making cars. In Tennessee and Mississippi. Making Hondas and Toyotas.
    Plenty also lost their jobs to cheaper labor in China, Korea, Mexico to name just a few (I guessing the numbers lost were greater than those gained).

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    We have been net winners from NAFTA. Our biggest trading partner is C A N A D A.
    Hardly a "cheap" 3rd World economy.
    I don't have any issues with Canada as a trade partner, they have employment and environmental protections in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Rather than try to prop up industries that can't hack it in the global economy; we ought to re-train the workers.
    Such as?

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogsp...n-deepens.html

    the brunt of the article points out that, besides the ongoing loss of high paying union jobs in the auto industry, America is now experiencing both a huge loss of jobs in 'high tech' industries as well as a huge loss of jobs in the 'investment banking' industry. None of these high paying jobs are likely to ever return ( in the US anyhow ).

    Arguably, these developments point to a major decline in both earnings and opportunities for the US 'middle class' as a whole. Arguably, this will be the catalyst for a fundamental change in American socioeconomic structure ... with the 'hollowing out' of the US 'middle class' leaving America as a nation divided between the rich 'elites' and the 'powerless' poor. And arguably this trend will be accelerated by the results of the upcoming US presidential election.
    This is nonsense. America is the leader in high tech industries. Most of the top high tech firms are American. Many of the leading firms in areas related to computer hardware and software are American. The United States is by far, the leader in Aerospace industries. Boeing has a backlog of several years for its aircraft.

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    in point of fact, it is only CLEAN energy that is in short supply. China is starting up two new power plants every week fueled by dirt cheap high sulfur coal. In other words, the clean energy market is an artificially created entity that really only exists in 'first world' countries whose gov'ts have enacted and enforced bans on the use of dirty but cheap energy sources, and whose gov'ts have enacted tax funded subsidies in order to make clean energy appear affordable / profitable. In other words, China could care less about wasting money on US solar panels / wind generators for their own use. China does however have a large interest in producing solar panels which can be sold to some Americans with the help of tax money subsidies paid for by other Americans.
    China is allocating a great deal of resources to develop clean energy for domestic use. Their goals are more ambitious than the United States.

    http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...126_618230.htm

    China's alternative energy market is growing in gusts. Beijing has set the ambitious goal of having renewable energy (including hydro, solar, biomass, and wind) meet 15% of its energy needs by 2020. The European Union, by contrast, is aiming for 20% by the same date, and the U.S. just 7.5% by 2013. Achieving that 15% goal will take an astonishing $265 billion in investment, and just last year China sank some $10 billion into alternative energy, second only to Germany.

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    ^^^ window dressing ! As the olympics are now over, 'reality' can return ! As an example, if the Chinese were serious about this, they would not have unequivocably refused to sign the 2nd round Kyoto accords to limit their own emissions.

    America is the leader in high tech industries. Most of the top high tech firms are American
    well that depends on the fine print. for example, I bet you think that Microsoft and Dell are an American firm ...



    (snip)"The newest expatriates aren't people. They're ideas, and we can't afford to watch them go. The Wall Street Journal reported last week that Microsoft had trimmed more than $500 million from its annual tax bill by putting a small subsidiary in Dublin in charge of $16 billion in assets. The game is simple: a company sends intellectual property to a tax-haven country like Ireland and keeps the tax difference on the money it earns.

    The world is used to seeing manufacturing businesses move to countries where labor is cheaper, like Mexico or China. But profits from software created and designed at Microsoft's headquarters, in Redmond, Wash., should be taxed in America, not Ireland. Unfortunately, outsourcing is extending itself to taxes, in large part because the United States Congress has given businesses the loopholes to do it. That means that America's greatest asset - its intellectual property - could be sent offshore to reduce corporate tax burdens.

    Microsoft's subsidiary is raking in the dough from licensing fees for copyrighted software, much of it originating in the United States. And what is the subsidiary's legal address? A Dublin law firm that advertises its smarts in turning Ireland into a tax shelter.

    Microsoft's response is that it pays all taxes required by law. Worldwide, that came to more than $4 billion for the company's last fiscal year. Tax avoidance is a gray area, and exploiting the cracks in the system isn't a crime. But the resulting damage, in terms of bigger budget deficits at home, sure makes it feel as if something is wrong.

    Microsoft isn't alone. A host of American tech companies have set up shop overseas, both for business and tax purposes. And as for the destinations, they're more than just Ireland; Singapore, for example, also attracts businesses with low corporate rates. But one of Ireland's advantages for tax dodging over, say, Bermuda, is its plausibility as a home for genuine investment because it is a place where foreign corporations have built and staffed offices and plants. Microsoft has 1,100 full-time employees in Ireland, for example, compared with 40,000 in the United States.

    That means, in a particularly hard-to-swallow twist, that the tax havens encourage companies to send increasingly large chunks of their businesses offshore as well. By pushing more of their jobs and investments overseas, the companies make the tax havens seem more legitimate"(snip)

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard_Head View Post
    I guess I should have use the term "fair trade" not "free trade". Either way we can't keep signing the trade agreements that offer no protection to our workers (or the environment for that matter).

    Since when do you agree with anything Paul Krugman has to say?

    Who's talking about a world-wide trade war?

    Plenty also lost their jobs to cheaper labor in China, Korea, Mexico to name just a few (I guessing the numbers lost were greater than those gained).

    I don't have any issues with Canada as a trade partner, they have employment and environmental protections in place.

    Such as?
    American consumers benefit from cheaper imported goods. The trade agreements we've been signing in the past 20 years or so DO contain environmental and worker protections. We honor them for the most part; sometimes other signatories do not. The current opposition to the Free Trade Treaty with Colombia, based on conditions for THEIR workers, is, for the most part, specious.

    I don't like Paul Krugman because he is a vicious, little smart-aleck who makes cherry-picking facts an art form. Nonetheless, he has been proven to be mostly correct about the current economic mess which he was warning about since at least 2005. He was right about both the housing bubble and under-regulation of Wall Street. And he is correct about free trade. I don't have to like somebody to agree with them or appreciate merit in an argument or position.

    YOU were talking about a world-wide trade war. You think the rest of the world is just going to blithely let us dictate how trade is going to be ? Remember what happened during the primaries when Obama was pandering in Ohio ? He said he wanted to reopen NAFTA and the Canadians said " Fine. We'll sell our oil to the Chinese." If we erect import barriers, we hurt our own consumers and other countries will retaliate. Look at OPEC. They cut production by 1.5 million barrels a day and oil is still going down.

    Job "losses" to other countries are dwarfed by job "losses" to other states. Most of the industries that are losing jobs are centered in high tax states like Ohio, Michigan and California. States with low taxes like Texas, Arizona, Nevada, Idaho and Florida have gained jobs. And the jobs lost, for the most part, were lower paying, low skilled jobs OR jobs where the unions made profits impossible.

    What do you think is going to happen to smokestack industries and the coal biz if we ever get serious about converting from coal to wind, solar and maybe nuclear ? At present, we generate about 50% of our electricity by burning coal. And we're supposed to drive ELECTRIC cars ?

    As for Canada, while they are environmentally responsible compared to most other countries, go to Sudbury some time and you'll see they have plenty of room for improvement.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 10-30-2008 at 08:26 AM.

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    States with low taxes like Texas, Arizona, Nevada, Idaho and Florida have gained jobs. And the jobs lost, for the most part, were lower paying, low skilled jobs OR jobs where the unions made profits impossible.
    Really?

    http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=9040023

    http://www.miamiherald.com/business/story/730949.html

    http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/128232

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    ^^^ arguably, the mostly construction related job losses in Nevada and Arizona were directly tied to the slowing exodus of high earning Californians trying to relocate and thus escape California's ever increasing income and property tax burden. After all if they can't sell their California home for a decent buck, if they can no longer get approved for a teaser introductory rate 'liar loan' financing to purchase a second house in Nevada or Arizona before their home in California can be sold etc. then they won't be shopping for a new home right away.

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    Default Re: these US jobs are NOT EVER COMING BACK ...

    O.K. Richard.
    Right now unemployment is hitting everywhere but before the so-called "crisis" hit, the states with low taxes were gaining jobs and high tax states
    were losing them. Give us a link showing a high tax state with a booming economy if you REALLY want to disprove my point.

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