Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 56

Thread: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

  1. #26
    God/dess pookie's Avatar
    Joined
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,508
    Thanks
    6
    Thanked 36 Times in 6 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    George Bush




  2. #27
    Featured Member
    Joined
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    1,030
    Thanks
    21
    Thanked 117 Times in 78 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by pookie View Post
    George Bush
    The uneducated masses rears its ugly head...

    Not to call you personally uneducated, but Bush had little if anything to do with the current economic situation. Thanks to our wonderful friend the media most people blame Bush for everything, including when they trip down the stairs.

  3. #28
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    ^^^ well, odds are that after today, or more precisely after January 17th (inauguration), the mainstream media will have a very tough time finding any republican in a position of power to blame !!!

  4. #29
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    5,921
    Thanks
    369
    Thanked 419 Times in 290 Posts
    My Mood
    Fine

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    The uneducated masses rears its ugly head...

    Not to call you personally uneducated, but Bush had little if anything to do with the current economic situation. Thanks to our wonderful friend the media most people blame Bush for everything, including when they trip down the stairs.
    It's so much not what Bush did; it's what he didn't do. Such as let the financial services industry turn a good system into a Vegas game parlor. Watching out fo that stuff is his job, and he didn't control it, well, maybe not himself, but the buck stopped at his desk.

    I dont understand why you had to insult her very brief statement when it certainly is an arguable one, though maybe not your side of it.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  5. #30
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    It's so much not what Bush did; it's what he didn't do. Such as let the financial services industry turn a good system into a Vegas game parlor. Watching out fo that stuff is his job, and he didn't control it, well, maybe not himself, but the buck stopped at his desk.

    I dont understand why you had to insult her very brief statement when it certainly is an arguable one, though maybe not your side of it.
    I have to agree. While some Dems like Dodd and Frank deserve plenty of blame; Bush is heavily responsible for the current mess. His appointees failed to see and appreciate the current problem until it was too late. His rock-bottom approval ratings made him worse than an irrelevancy. Every time he opened his mouth, the Dow went down.

  6. #31
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    I've been re-reading some historical stuff about the run up to the Great Depression and the parallels are striking. In the 1920's there were three speculative bubbles. First in oil as the price shot up to $4 a barrel before dropping to $1.50. Then in FLORIDA real estate and last in the stock market.

    The difference is that after all three bubbles burst, the Federal Reserve contracted the money supply while today the Fed is expanding it.

  7. #32
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    ^^^ actually, according to shadowstats, the M3 overall money supply has been growing more slowly. This isn't the same as an actual contraction, but it is a reduction in the number of 'expected' dollars.



    I assume that M3 dollars wind up 'disappearing' when a US dollar denominated asset is 'written off' as worthless (like Lehman Brothers stock shares).

  8. #33
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ actually, according to shadowstats, the M3 overall money supply has been growing more slowly. This isn't the same as an actual contraction, but it is a reduction in the number of 'expected' dollars.



    I assume that M3 dollars wind up 'disappearing' when a US dollar denominated asset is 'written off' as worthless (like Lehman Brothers stock shares).
    I think your chart is out of date. The latest ones I've seen show the Fed's balance sheet and M3 as growing.

  9. #34
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    ^^^ note that this chart shows YOY rate of change in money supply. Thus the latest data shows a positive 11% expansion. My point was that, compared to the nearly 18% expansion rate of the previous year, an 11% expansion rate is a comparative reduction in liquidity level.

  10. #35
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ note that this chart shows YOY rate of change in money supply. Thus the latest data shows a positive 11% expansion. My point was that, compared to the nearly 18% expansion rate of the previous year, an 11% expansion rate is a comparative reduction in liquidity level.
    I beg to differ. An expanding money supply is an expanding money supply. The RATE of growth might be faster or slower but it expands nonetheless. The REAL question is whether the increase is ADEQUATE. That remains to be seen.

  11. #36
    Senior Member Lucy in the Sky's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    150
    Thanks
    10
    Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Greed is a good answer but my take on matters is that deregulation is the root cause of the current mess.

  12. #37
    Featured Member
    Joined
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    961
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy in the Sky View Post
    Greed is a good answer but my take on matters is that deregulation is the root cause of the current mess.

    You can't say deregulation is the root cause, because there are whole slews of regulations that are crap...over regulation.

    The mortgage mess was legal, and they didn't move to 'regulate' it.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

  13. #38
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy in the Sky View Post
    Greed is a good answer but my take on matters is that deregulation is the root cause of the current mess.
    Greed.

    Deregulation.

    Government interference with lending.

    Carelessness.

    Stupidity.

    Too much money from the Fed. Take your pick.

    The bottom line, it seems to me, is that we had three speculative bubbles that burst. Historically, there have been lots of such bubbles - the Dutch had one with tulips in the 1600's; the British have had many; the U.S. has had a lot.

    The BIGGEST contributors were the careless lending and everything that flowed from that - the MBS's; the CDS's all with no clearinghouse and no regulation.

  14. #39
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Thomas Friedman 's column in today's New York Times sums it up very nicely :

    " People who had no business buying a home, with nothing down and nothing to pay for two years; people who had no business pushing such mortgages, but made fortunes doing so; people who had no business bundling those loans into securities and selling them to third parties, as if they were AAA bonds, but made fortunes doing so; people who had no business rating those loans as AAA, but made a fortune doing so; and people who had no business buying thiose bonds and putting them on their balance sheets so they could earn a little better yield, but made fortunes doing so." he goes on to point out that Citigroup was involved in and made gobs of money from "almost every link in that chain." The best paid bankers and Wall Street executives in this country either were too stupid to know what they were selling or did know and didn't care as long as they were getting paid.

  15. #40
    Featured Member
    Joined
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    961
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Thomas Friedman 's column in today's New York Times sums it up very nicely :

    " People who had no business buying a home, with nothing down and nothing to pay for two years;

    Just as I've been saying. The rest is just icing on the cake.....on my cake.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

  16. #41
    Featured Member minnow's Avatar
    Joined
    Sep 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,003
    Thanks
    242
    Thanked 519 Times in 315 Posts
    Blog Entries
    10
    My Mood
    Twisted

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    I have to agree. While some Dems like Dodd and Frank deserve plenty of blame; Bush is heavily responsible for the current mess. His appointees failed to see and appreciate the current problem until it was too late.// snip-snip
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    While President may get the media attention, the quality, and "ideology" of appointees, whose actions, (or lack thereof) can have a profound impact on the lives of many people.

  17. #42
    Featured Member
    Joined
    Feb 2005
    Location
    whine country
    Posts
    812
    Thanks
    11
    Thanked 253 Times in 139 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    Just as I've been saying. The rest is just icing on the cake.....on my cake.
    I think my view of this is 180 degrees from your view. I must admit, I'm not well versed in the ways of Wall Street, but this looks like a top-down bubble to me.
    The driving force in the mortgage market wasn't the new home buyers, it was the lenders themselves. Once the risk had been removed from the lenders and the loans could be chopped up and resold as AAA rated securities, increased profits became dependent on increasing volume, and loan vehicles were created that made it near impossible for anyone who wanted, regardless of credit worthiness, to not be approved for a loan.

    Is it possible the rating agencies could be prosecuted somehow for the fraud they committed?

  18. #43
    Featured Member
    Joined
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    961
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    The next line about the people had no business pushing a mortgage should have showed up in my quote. Sorry.

    It's give and take, they shouldn't have pushed those loans, AND those people shouldn't have gotten the loans. IMO one is not more guilty.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

  19. #44
    Banned Melonie's Avatar
    Joined
    Jul 2002
    Location
    way south of the border
    Posts
    25,932
    Thanks
    612
    Thanked 10,563 Times in 4,646 Posts
    Blog Entries
    3
    My Mood
    Cynical

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    ^^^ well there is one 'guilty party' at the root of all of this 'evil'. HUD ! It is that gov't department that directed Fannie and Freddie to purchase ( and thus securitize and resell ) subprime mortgages that Fannie and Freddie themselves deemed too risky to previously accept. It was that gov't department that directed Fannie and Freddie to substitute the rotten credit of many low income inner city borrowers with the implied (and later in fact) credit of the US government.

    Yes the lenders certainly cashed in on the subprime mortgage machine. However, the 'motor' driving this machine was the willingness nay eagerness of Fannie and Freddie to purchase risky loans from these lenders in order to fulfill their HUD directive of increasing the percentage of low income home ownership at any cost. In that sort of environment, any lender who did NOT attempt to sell subprime mortgages was considered at a competitive disadvantage to other lenders that WERE selling such mortgages (and reselling them to Fannie and Freddie). Well today we know what that cost was (or at least SOME of what that cost was).

  20. #45
    Featured Member
    Joined
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    961
    Thanks
    4
    Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    You see, I lump them in with latter group.

    The reason I can't lay blame squarely on them is, only a complete dumb asswould take an ARM that they were not going to be able to afford when rates went up even a single percent.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

  21. #46
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    5,921
    Thanks
    369
    Thanked 419 Times in 290 Posts
    My Mood
    Fine

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Thomas Friedman 's column in today's New York Times sums it up very nicely :

    " People who had no business buying a home, with nothing down and nothing to pay for two years; people who had no business pushing such mortgages, but made fortunes doing so; people who had no business bundling those loans into securities and selling them to third parties, as if they were AAA bonds, but made fortunes doing so; people who had no business rating those loans as AAA, but made a fortune doing so; and people who had no business buying thiose bonds and putting them on their balance sheets so they could earn a little better yield, but made fortunes doing so." ....
    This is the HOT POTATO theory, which I agree with. All the blame cannot go to the person who heated the potato in the first place. A great part of it must go to those who had to keep passing it around so they wouldn't get burned. Must have given them a great deal of pleasure to devise schemes to quickly pass it onto others when they saw how hot it was and yet greatly profit from its passing. Then they tossed it to us, and we have no schemes and no one else to pass it onto.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Ernie View Post
    ...The driving force in the mortgage market wasn't the new home buyers, it was the lenders themselves. Once the risk had been removed from the lenders and the loans could be chopped up and resold as AAA rated securities, increased profits became dependent on increasing volume, and loan vehicles were created that made it near impossible for anyone who wanted, regardless of credit worthiness, to not be approved for a loan....
    They saw enough profit in it to hold out their hand and then they began to find some other patsy to pass it onto. Problem is that with the cost of housing beginning to bubble, many others got into the game who were never intended to be players in this HOT POTATO game. This greatly increased the stakes of the game and exponentially increased the profit for doing so. The metaphorical POTATO got even HOTTER. Until the game became just another house of cards game. When fuel prices became to rise because of speculators and gamblers, the wind started knocking down that unstable house. Then all those potatoes started burning their hands, hands that even now reach out to the government/public repair centers for free salve and bandages.
    Last edited by threlayer; 11-27-2008 at 10:01 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  22. #47
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
    Joined
    Oct 2006
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,150
    Thanks
    1,261
    Thanked 1,430 Times in 888 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ well there is one 'guilty party' at the root of all of this 'evil'. HUD ! It is that gov't department that directed Fannie and Freddie to purchase ( and thus securitize and resell ) subprime mortgages that Fannie and Freddie themselves deemed too risky to previously accept. It was that gov't department that directed Fannie and Freddie to substitute the rotten credit of many low income inner city borrowers with the implied (and later in fact) credit of the US government.

    Yes the lenders certainly cashed in on the subprime mortgage machine. However, the 'motor' driving this machine was the willingness nay eagerness of Fannie and Freddie to purchase risky loans from these lenders in order to fulfill their HUD directive of increasing the percentage of low income home ownership at any cost. In that sort of environment, any lender who did NOT attempt to sell subprime mortgages was considered at a competitive disadvantage to other lenders that WERE selling such mortgages (and reselling them to Fannie and Freddie). Well today we know what that cost was (or at least SOME of what that cost was).
    Exactly ! And you indirectly raise an even more important question : What was the government doing in the mortgage business in the first place ?

    Another twist on this mess was that a substantial percentage of sub-prime borrowers actually qualified for traditional mortgages i.e. they were steered into sub-prime mortgages when there was no reason for it other than broker and lender greed.

  23. #48
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,493
    Thanks
    120
    Thanked 50 Times in 35 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ well, odds are that after today, or more precisely after January 17th (inauguration), the mainstream media will have a very tough time finding any republican in a position of power to blame !!!
    Then we get to post across the internet "This is Obama's fault!"

    I can hardly wait for the fun to begin.

  24. #49
    God/dess Deogol's Avatar
    Joined
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    5,493
    Thanks
    120
    Thanked 50 Times in 35 Posts

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Thomas Friedman 's column in today's New York Times sums it up very nicely :

    " People who had no business buying a home, with nothing down and nothing to pay for two years; people who had no business pushing such mortgages, but made fortunes doing so; people who had no business bundling those loans into securities and selling them to third parties, as if they were AAA bonds, but made fortunes doing so; people who had no business rating those loans as AAA, but made a fortune doing so; and people who had no business buying thiose bonds and putting them on their balance sheets so they could earn a little better yield, but made fortunes doing so." he goes on to point out that Citigroup was involved in and made gobs of money from "almost every link in that chain." The best paid bankers and Wall Street executives in this country either were too stupid to know what they were selling or did know and didn't care as long as they were getting paid.
    It was falling apart before these boys got into the sandbox. People losing jobs, jobs going over seas, stagnant wages for more than half a decade, personal debt, commercial debt, government debt (at all levels.) The majority of us were living on borrowed time on a borrowed dollar.

  25. #50
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
    Joined
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Syracuse
    Posts
    5,921
    Thanks
    369
    Thanked 419 Times in 290 Posts
    My Mood
    Fine

    Default Re: WEhat Triggered this Whole Economic Mess?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    Then we get to post across the internet "This is Obama's fault!" I can hardly wait for the fun to begin.
    If it were ONLY one person's fault, we would be able to find a solution. Unfortunately this is the fault of many, many people. And if society doesn't recognize that,we will NEVER find anything like a solution. So don't start that fault-finding with Obama; it's his job to clean up all the mess that so many others have positioned us into. That would just be passing the buck to whomever you don't happen to like, and that's stupid.

    I make this prediction: Obama will try harder than Bush ever did or could.
    Last edited by threlayer; 11-29-2008 at 02:39 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-05-2011, 05:25 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-29-2011, 07:09 AM
  3. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 10-17-2008, 07:53 AM
  4. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 10-09-2008, 10:07 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •