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Thread: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of GM

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    Default weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of GM

    Why is this idea not surprising ... let's take the tax money collected from non-union businesses and employees making $18 an hour with minimal benefits and use it to subsidize a union business with employees making $30 an hour with wall-to-wall benefits which has priced itself out of being globally competitive. Of course, those unions made large contributions to Obama, Pelosi, Reid and other democratic politicians ...

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    Disgusting, isn't it?

    These bail-outs are ridiculous. Amazing that, as a people, this country hasn't made an outcry loud enough to stop these politicians ... isn't it?

    Bleh, capitalism was over-rated anyways. Just ask Obama. Throw in another stimulus bribe package and everything is A-ok.

    Bleh again,

    Narcissus

    EDIT: On a side note ... does anyone know of a decent independent party to research and possibly start supporting. Most that I have found are still extreme in one direction or another.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    Amazing that, as a people, this country hasn't made an outcry loud enough to stop these politicians ... isn't it?
    All that I can figure is that way too many Americans are 'blind' to the actual facts, as opposed to simply accepting mainstream media spin (or information blackouts). This was arguably made possible by a seemingly deliberate attempt to AVOID the teaching of how America's economic system actually works, and whose hands are pulling what levers. In other words, while mainstream media made great efforts to emphasize Bush and Cheney's connections to 'big oil', they have made equally great efforts to keep similar associations between prominent Democrats and Wall St / Unionized businesses / Fannie Mae under wraps.

    50 years ago President Eisenhower warned against the consequences of a growing (Republican associated) 'Military-Industrial Complex', with the same group of elite people routinely crossing a narrow gap between working in the defense industry and working for a gov't agency doing business with the defense industry. Unfortunately, there have been no similar warnings against the consequences of a growing (Democratic associated) 'Government-Wall St Complex', where the same group of elite people routinely cross the narrow gap between working in the financial industry and working for a gov't agency doing business with (or even REGULATING) the financial industry.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    I don't think employee wages has much to do with GM's failure as a business. If they actually built cars and trucks that people wanted to buy, people would buy those cars and trucks.

    I owned American made cars my whole life until 2004. I didn't buy an American car because the fuel efficiency was so crappy compared to imports.

    Just out of curiosity, any speculation as to what the impact on the US economy would be if GM failed? (with Ford and Chrysler shortly thereafter?)


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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    Just out of curiosity, any speculation as to what the impact on the US economy would be if GM failed? (with Ford and Chrysler shortly thereafter?)
    Probably the same outcome as when the US lost the last manufacturers of ... televisions ... blue jeans ... computer memory chips. Of course, those former industries were (for the most part) not unionized, meaning that politicians felt far less impact in the form of lost union contributions and lost union support when those hundreds of thousands of jobs were lost than would be the case with the Detroit automakers.


    I don't think employee wages has much to do with GM's failure as a business. If they actually built cars and trucks that people wanted to buy, people would buy those cars and trucks
    I would offer the counter-argument that the financial success of Hyundai and the financial distress of Toyota disproves your contention. American customers will gladly purchase vehicles with less than outstanding gas mileage if the price is right. Similarly, Americans aren't willing to pay an unlimited price premium for higher gas mileage (unless of course that price premium is being heavily subsidized by fellow federal / state taxpayers). I would also contend that, had it not been for the (arguably contrived and aggravated by gov't ethanol mandates) $4+ per gallon spike in US gasoline prices, Americans would still be shopping for the large comfortable safe vehicles produced by American automakers.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-08-2008 at 05:31 PM.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    Hmmmm.... I just found this article:

    http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=935684

    This excerpt sounds a bit doomsday-ish:
    If all three Detroit manufacturers were to cease operations, the U.S. economy would lose 2.95 million direct and indirect jobs in the first year. Governments would lose at least US$156.4-billion in taxes over the first three years.

    The vast majority of those job coming out of the midwest.


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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...5jM&refer=home

    Why is this idea not surprising ... let's take the tax money collected from non-union businesses and employees making $18 an hour with minimal benefits and use it to subsidize a union business with employees making $30 an hour with wall-to-wall benefits which has priced itself out of being globally competitive. Of course, those unions made large contributions to Obama, Pelosi, Reid and other democratic politicians ...
    Workers at American Auto Manufacturers have taken significant reductions in pay over the past few years.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    That isn't a doomsday looming ... it a free market upheaval. Yes, jobs will be lost and there will be a massive economic ripple that hurts everywhere ... for a time.

    New jobs and new companies will be created to fill those empty spots. Will it be easy? Nope. Will it take time? Yes. Seriously, when companies fail ... people eventually get new jobs and the market will, if left alone, fill the supply niche. Enron, anybody?

    It is absurd for the government to bail them out ... where does it end? It is along the same lines as a stimulas package: it sounds great in theory, but it does little other than create more debt that we ALL owe.

    Remember, we are the ones that foot these bills that the politicians are ringing up. Should we bail out car companies? Sure ... if we all get a free car. That wouldn't be cost efficient? Then let them rot.

    If fiscally irresponsible companies and CEOs are forced to pay for their mistakes, then companies (read: major shareholders) will be much more responsible in whom they allow to run said company. What will that do? Create an entirely new batch of people running companies intelligently, maybe? We can hope!

    Narcissus

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    Governments would lose at least US$156.4-billion in taxes over the first three years.
    hmmm ... same price as the $50 billion bailout they are asking for this year !

    the U.S. economy would lose 2.95 million direct and indirect jobs in the first year
    But that assumes that 2.95 million people and the host of support companies that many work for would simply sit idle. That also assumes that no other company would try to resurrect the US auto industry ... perhaps without $30 an hour union wages and perhaps without wall-to-wall fringe benefits such that the 'new' company could actually be globally competitive (or at least competitive with foreign owned auto plants in the USA).

    In other words, this bailout attempt really devolves into being a means of using taxpayer money to subsidize the non-competitiveness of the US auto industry and a means to continue supply $30 an hour paychecks and wall-to-wall benefits for a select few (who by sheer coincidence were heavy supporters of Democrat politicians) which must actually be paid for by other Americans working at $20 an hour jobs with minimal benefits (who by sheer coincidence did not support Democratic politicians to the same degree).

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    ^ melonie why did you even vote for obama if you disagree with everything he does? not even trying to be smart, just really curious.
    "We are the coolest mothafuckas on the planet....The sky is fallin ain't no need to panic"... -Outkast

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    Because it will only be through an Obama presidency plus a filibuster proof majority in the Senate plus a huge majority in the House that democratic programs will be implemented without restraint. Thus when the 2012 election rolls around, with no prominent republicans in any position of power for mainstream media to target in a blame-shifting frenzy, the American people will be able to see the results of unrestrained democratic programs ... and vote accordingly. The last time this situation existed Jimmy Carter was president ... and the American people responded by electing Ronald Reagan.

    In this particular thread, I am trying to plant the seed that the taxpayer funded 'bailout' programs promoted by Democrat politicians have in fact selectively rewarded certain companies (while refusing to bail out other companies) ... arguably because those 'bailed out' companies have strong ties to Democrat politicians. This is IMHO a disturbing trend, because it is establishing a precedent that government policy increasingly determines which US companies will survive in the future and which will not. And a couple of major criteria for the government placing one company on the 'bailout' list while allowing another company to go bankrupt appears to be a direct crossover of senior personnel (i.e. Rahn Emanuel was a Fannie Mae director ... Paulsen was a Wall St mogul etc.), union support of democratic candidates, and the level of political contributions ...

    (snip)"The Center for Responsive Politics, a Washington nonprofit group that studies money and politics, reports that on average, lawmakers who voted in favor of the bailout bill have received 51 percent more in campaign contributions from sources in the finance, insurance and real estate industries — or FIRE industries, for short — over their congressional careers than those who opposed the emergency legislation.

    The legislation is of vital interest to Wall Street firms and banks, many of which would like to use the program to offload noxious mortgage-related assets.

    The FIRE industries — or, more specifically, individuals and political action committees associated with them — have been the top source of campaign contributions in federal politics, the group said, giving more than $2 billion to federal candidates and political parties since 1989.

    This year, sources from the FIRE industries have been particularly busy, doling out millions to candidates that are facing tough reelections.

    In this election cycle, the 140 House Democrats who voted for the bailout bill collected 78 percent more from the FIRE industries than the Democrats who opposed it. Over their careers, they collected 88 percent more, the data show.

    On the Republican side, the gap was smaller. Republicans in the House that voted yes on the bailout bill got an average of 23 percent more in contributions from the FIRE industries in this election cycle than House Republicans who voted against it. In the long run, they got 53 percent more.

    Of the 37 Democrats that sit on the House Financial Services Committee, 25 voted for the bill, including the committee chairman, Barney Frank of Massachusetts. He received nearly $800,000 this election cycle from sources in the FIRE industries.

    Of the 33 Republicans on the committee, 8 voted for the bill. "(snip)
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-09-2008 at 04:35 AM.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Because it will only be through an Obama presidency plus a filibuster proof majority in the Senate plus a huge majority in the House that democratic programs will be implemented without restraint. Thus when the 2012 election rolls around, with no prominent republicans in any position of power for mainstream media to target in a blame-shifting frenzy, the American people will be able to see the results of unrestrained democratic programs ... and vote accordingly. The last time this situation existed Jimmy Carter was president ... and the American people responded by electing Ronald Reagan.
    I'm curious, then, as to why you plan to skip the country. If you think Obama's election will lead to what you would consider long-term benefits to the country, and you helped elect him to boot, wouldn't you want to stick around just in case this presidency does bear the kind of fruit you'd like to pluck?

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    hmmm....so basically melonie, you just voted for him so he could mess up? thats not quite fair seeing how far in the hole he's starting off don't you think?
    it's not like he can be expected to fix the country in four years when it took eight+ to damn near break.
    "We are the coolest mothafuckas on the planet....The sky is fallin ain't no need to panic"... -Outkast

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    ^^^ because living outside of the country under Obama's probable tax increase scenario is worth at least $50k per year in tax savings ... probably more in terms of real 'purchasing power' if the US dollar exchange rate tanks !

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ because living outside of the country under Obama's probable tax increase scenario is worth at least $50k per year in tax savings ... probably more in terms of real 'purchasing power' if the US dollar exchange rate tanks !
    Do you plan to come back to the States, then, if a Republican comes to office in 2012?

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    My wife told me I would love you or hate you , Melonie ...

    I think it is both. Wow, you are ... ruthless.

    I can't say that I agree with your methodology, but it is admirable just the same.

    Narcissus

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    Do you plan to come back to the States, then, if a Republican comes to office in 2012?
    Definitely not in 2012. My gut feeling is that it won't yet be 'safe' to do so.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    i would run too, if i made more than 200,000 a year.... maybe not, i wouldnt feel i was contributing to the well being of america if i chose to run. i believe in his plan tho, so i guess thats the difference.
    "We are the coolest mothafuckas on the planet....The sky is fallin ain't no need to panic"... -Outkast

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    well, contributing large amounts of tax money ... and actually having that tax money spent on things that improve the well being of America ... are two different things. This is especially the case lately with > 1 trillion dollars worth of tax money being used to selectively bail out particular Wall St firms, particular homeowners, and particular manufacturers.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    true. i can see where youre coming from. i personally trust obama (and his economic team) with my money, much more than i trust myself or my investors, or my banks with it.
    eventually i will personally benefit from the bailouts. especially the ones pertaining to students, which will be coming up soon. but even ones like the homeowners and manufactuers. if my custies have no house, no job, they cant spend on me. so i have no problem contriuting to them now.
    i feel like its not fair for you to leave when the economy is bad, contribute nothing, and come back when it's all good.
    however if i look from your viewpoint, i can see where you wouldnt want to spend your money on bailouts you dont feel are going to personally benefit you.
    "We are the coolest mothafuckas on the planet....The sky is fallin ain't no need to panic"... -Outkast

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    ^^^ actually it's doubtful that these 'bailouts' are going to benefit anyone other than the people working for the bailed-out companies, the select few homeowners that qualify for a 'subprime' mortgage bailout, and uber-rich investors whose bond payments will be guaranteed by the US taxpayer. They are certainly not going to help middle class taxpayers who will wind up eating the losses, they are not going to help the management or employees of future companies like Lehman Brothers who will be left off the 'bailout' list. They will not help future applicants for 'subprime' mortgages. They will not help US consumers of all income groups who will continue having to pay high prices for cars due to the cost of $30+ an hour union labor plus wall-to-wall benefit costs.

    I'll also agree that you will personally benefit because in all probability a fair percentage of Obama's 'shared wealth' will wind up coming back home to Chicago. Please remember to say thank you to taxpayers in other (mostly 'red') states who generated the wealth in the first place.

    As far as contributing nothing, even if I become an ex-patriate the US gov't is STILL going to be collecting SSI taxes and capital gains taxes and income taxes on any of my income that still originates from America. The state of NY is STILL going to be collecting property taxes. Thus even if I am gone I will still be contributing more tax revenue to America than 40% of the population ! In reality, the tax differential only exists on income that originates from 'offshore' sources. In order to totally avoid paying US taxes it is necessary to permanently renounce one's American citizenship ... which at minimum requires that another country has granted you a 'replacement' citizenship. This is becoming increasingly difficult, and now takes several years and lots of money

    !~!
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-09-2008 at 10:46 AM.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    I really dont want to get into this too in-depth, but Melonie is right. The bailouts are going to help the people the screwed up to begin with. Thats it. These bailouts are not going to magically make all our economic issues dissapear like politicians seem to want us to believe.
    Time in conjunction with the right economic policies are what is going to make things better, Time being the key there.

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    Melonie, do you need any help packing? At what point will it occur to you that it was republican polices that got us into this mess?

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    ^ if you still have to pay the taxes, why leave?
    and also, the bailouts not helping anyone is a matter of opinion, and speculation, and you can back it up with as much "proof" as you want.
    it is all speculation until 4 years from now when we look back at the numbers.
    "We are the coolest mothafuckas on the planet....The sky is fallin ain't no need to panic"... -Outkast

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    Default Re: weekend commentary - Pelosi and Reid (as well as Obama) support gov't bailout of

    if you still have to pay the taxes, why leave?
    because by leaving I am able to exempt the earnings and dividends on foreign stocks, foreign bonds, foreign CD's etc. from US taxes. While some of my income sources will have to remain American by definition (i.e. American films and magazine and website 'royalties' still count as American income even if the check is mailed to a foreign address), it's possible to sell off US stock and bond and CD holdings and replace them with foreign stocks and bonds and CD's. And who knows, if I can rearrange things to lower my US income down to the <$20k a year ballpark I may even be eligible for Obama's new low income tax credit LOL !

    it is all speculation until 4 years from now when we look back at the numbers.
    hopefully living standards in America will still be at levels four years from now that are the same order of magnitude as current levels ... making a number analysis necessary. However, it's distinctly possible that you will see living standards in America decline by an entire order of magnitude in the next 2 years thus making a number analysis unnecessary (at least for the middle class).

    At what point will it occur to you that it was republican polices that got us into this mess
    that would require that I equate RINO's like GWB with republicans, and would also require that I believe mainstream media disinformation in favor of documented but relatively unpublicized facts.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-09-2008 at 03:53 PM.

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