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Thread: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

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    Default Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    (snip)"The swooning frenzy over the choice of Barack Obama as President of the United States must be one of the most absurd waves of self-deception and swirling fantasy ever to sweep through an advanced civilisation. At least Mandela-worship – its nearest equivalent – is focused on a man who actually did something.

    I really don’t see how the Obama devotees can ever in future mock the Moonies, the Scientologists or people who claim to have been abducted in flying saucers. This is a cult like the one which grew up around Princess Diana, bereft of reason and hostile to facts.

    It already has all the signs of such a thing. The newspapers which recorded Obama’s victory have become valuable relics. You may buy Obama picture books and Obama calendars and if there isn’t yet a children’s picture version of his story, there soon will be.

    Proper books, recording his sordid associates, his cowardly voting record, his astonishingly militant commitment to unrestricted abortion and his blundering trip to Africa, are little-read and hard to find.

    If you can believe that this undistinguished and conventionally Left-wing machine politician is a sort of secular saviour, then you can believe anything. He plainly doesn’t believe it himself. His cliche-stuffed, PC clunker of an acceptance speech suffered badly from nerves. It was what you would expect from someone who knew he’d promised too much and that from now on the easy bit was over.

    He needn’t worry too much. From now on, the rough boys and girls of America’s Democratic Party apparatus, many recycled from Bill Clinton’s stained and crumpled entourage, will crowd round him, to collect the rich spoils of his victory and also tell him what to do, which is what he is used to. "(snip)

    (snip)"Perhaps, being a Chicago crowd, they knew some of the things that 52.5 per cent of America prefers not to know. They know Obama is the obedient servant of one of the most squalid and unshakeable political machines in America. They know that one of his alarmingly close associates, a state-subsidised slum landlord called Tony Rezko, has been convicted on fraud and corruption charges.

    They also know the US is just as segregated as it was before Martin Luther King – in schools, streets, neighbourhoods, holidays, even in its TV-watching habits and its choice of fast-food joint. The difference is that it is now done by unspoken agreement rather than by law.

    If Mr Obama’s election had threatened any of that, his feel-good white supporters would have scuttled off and voted for John McCain, or practically anyone. But it doesn’t. Mr Obama, thanks mainly to the now-departed grandmother he alternately praised as a saint and denounced as a racial bigot, has the huge advantages of an expensive private education. He did not have to grow up in the badlands of useless schools, shattered families and gangs which are the lot of so many young black men of his generation.

    If the nonsensical claims made for this election were true, then every positive discrimination programme aimed at helping black people into jobs they otherwise wouldn’t get should be abandoned forthwith. Nothing of the kind will happen. On the contrary, there will probably be more of them.

    And if those who voted for Obama were all proving their anti-racist nobility, that presumably means that those many millions who didn’t vote for him were proving themselves to be hopeless bigots. This is obviously untrue.

    I was in Washington DC the night of the election. America’s beautiful capital has a sad secret. It is perhaps the most racially divided city in the world, with 15th Street – which runs due north from the White House – the unofficial frontier between black and white. But, like so much of America, it also now has a new division, and one which is in many ways much more important. I had attended an election-night party in a smart and liberal white area, but was staying the night less than a mile away on the edge of a suburb where Spanish is spoken as much as English, plus a smattering of tongues from such places as Ethiopia, Somalia and Afghanistan.

    As I walked, I crossed another of Washington’s secret frontiers. There had been a few white people blowing car horns and shouting, as the result became clear. But among the Mexicans, Salvadorans and the other Third World nationalities, there was something like ecstasy.

    They grasped the real significance of this moment. They knew it meant that America had finally switched sides in a global cultural war. Forget the Cold War, or even the Iraq War. The United States, having for the most part a deeply conservative people, had until now just about stood out against many of the mistakes which have ruined so much of the rest of the world.

    Suspicious of welfare addiction, feeble justice and high taxes, totally committed to preserving its own national sovereignty, unabashedly Christian in a world part secular and part Muslim, suspicious of the Great Global Warming panic, it was unique.

    These strengths had been fading for some time, mainly due to poorly controlled mass immigration and to the march of political correctness. They had also been weakened by the failure of America’s conservative party – the Republicans – to fight on the cultural and moral fronts.

    They preferred to posture on the world stage. Scared of confronting Left-wing teachers and sexual revolutionaries at home, they could order soldiers to be brave on their behalf in far-off deserts. And now the US, like Britain before it, has begun the long slow descent into the Third World. How sad. Where now is our last best hope on Earth?"(snip)

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    So okay whats your point in all of this. Every thread you start now is about Barack Obama.

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    Melonie has no point. She just wants to let everyone know that she thinks Obama ain't shit. We get it Mel.
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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    my only point was to expose SW readers to opinion and assessment that they will probably NOT hear via US mainstream media.

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    (snip)"The swooning frenzy over the choice of Barack Obama as President of the United States must be one of the most absurd waves of self-deception and swirling fantasy ever to sweep through an advanced civilisation. At least Mandela-worship – its nearest equivalent – is focused on a man who actually did something.

    I really don’t see how the Obama devotees can ever in future mock the Moonies, the Scientologists or people who claim to have been abducted in flying saucers. This is a cult like the one which grew up around Princess Diana, bereft of reason and hostile to facts.

    It already has all the signs of such a thing. The newspapers which recorded Obama’s victory have become valuable relics. You may buy Obama picture books and Obama calendars and if there isn’t yet a children’s picture version of his story, there soon will be.

    Proper books, recording his sordid associates, his cowardly voting record, his astonishingly militant commitment to unrestricted abortion and his blundering trip to Africa, are little-read and hard to find.

    If you can believe that this undistinguished and conventionally Left-wing machine politician is a sort of secular saviour, then you can believe anything. He plainly doesn’t believe it himself. His cliche-stuffed, PC clunker of an acceptance speech suffered badly from nerves. It was what you would expect from someone who knew he’d promised too much and that from now on the easy bit was over.

    He needn’t worry too much. From now on, the rough boys and girls of America’s Democratic Party apparatus, many recycled from Bill Clinton’s stained and crumpled entourage, will crowd round him, to collect the rich spoils of his victory and also tell him what to do, which is what he is used to. "(snip)

    (snip)"Perhaps, being a Chicago crowd, they knew some of the things that 52.5 per cent of America prefers not to know. They know Obama is the obedient servant of one of the most squalid and unshakeable political machines in America. They know that one of his alarmingly close associates, a state-subsidised slum landlord called Tony Rezko, has been convicted on fraud and corruption charges.

    They also know the US is just as segregated as it was before Martin Luther King – in schools, streets, neighbourhoods, holidays, even in its TV-watching habits and its choice of fast-food joint. The difference is that it is now done by unspoken agreement rather than by law.

    If Mr Obama’s election had threatened any of that, his feel-good white supporters would have scuttled off and voted for John McCain, or practically anyone. But it doesn’t. Mr Obama, thanks mainly to the now-departed grandmother he alternately praised as a saint and denounced as a racial bigot, has the huge advantages of an expensive private education. He did not have to grow up in the badlands of useless schools, shattered families and gangs which are the lot of so many young black men of his generation.

    If the nonsensical claims made for this election were true, then every positive discrimination programme aimed at helping black people into jobs they otherwise wouldn’t get should be abandoned forthwith. Nothing of the kind will happen. On the contrary, there will probably be more of them.

    And if those who voted for Obama were all proving their anti-racist nobility, that presumably means that those many millions who didn’t vote for him were proving themselves to be hopeless bigots. This is obviously untrue.

    I was in Washington DC the night of the election. America’s beautiful capital has a sad secret. It is perhaps the most racially divided city in the world, with 15th Street – which runs due north from the White House – the unofficial frontier between black and white. But, like so much of America, it also now has a new division, and one which is in many ways much more important. I had attended an election-night party in a smart and liberal white area, but was staying the night less than a mile away on the edge of a suburb where Spanish is spoken as much as English, plus a smattering of tongues from such places as Ethiopia, Somalia and Afghanistan.

    As I walked, I crossed another of Washington’s secret frontiers. There had been a few white people blowing car horns and shouting, as the result became clear. But among the Mexicans, Salvadorans and the other Third World nationalities, there was something like ecstasy.

    They grasped the real significance of this moment. They knew it meant that America had finally switched sides in a global cultural war. Forget the Cold War, or even the Iraq War. The United States, having for the most part a deeply conservative people, had until now just about stood out against many of the mistakes which have ruined so much of the rest of the world.

    Suspicious of welfare addiction, feeble justice and high taxes, totally committed to preserving its own national sovereignty, unabashedly Christian in a world part secular and part Muslim, suspicious of the Great Global Warming panic, it was unique.

    These strengths had been fading for some time, mainly due to poorly controlled mass immigration and to the march of political correctness. They had also been weakened by the failure of America’s conservative party – the Republicans – to fight on the cultural and moral fronts.

    They preferred to posture on the world stage. Scared of confronting Left-wing teachers and sexual revolutionaries at home, they could order soldiers to be brave on their behalf in far-off deserts. And now the US, like Britain before it, has begun the long slow descent into the Third World. How sad. Where now is our last best hope on Earth?"(snip)

    from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ope-Earth.html
    I like both Hitchens. They are two of the most brutally objective writers extant. Peter Hitchens makes some valid points, particularly as to many unpleasant realities involving race and class and unrealistic expectations generated by Obama's election. BUT he gives short shrift to two rather important things about Obama's election : it's historical significance and Obama's potential.

    It's also possible that a few of the Clintonistas Obama is likely to employ LEARNED a few things from working for "Der Slickmeister" and during their eight years in exile. Except for Rahm Emanuel who has already confirmed that he's a creepy prick by leaking the contents of yesterday's "private" chat between Obama and Bush.

    I've said all along that I was not particularly enthusiastic about Obama. That his voting record and some of his past associations were troubling, to put it mildly. Nonetheless, I was proud of his election. Recognizing Obama's brainpower and ability to be articulate, lead and inspire, I remain cautiously optimistic. We'll see. Time will tell.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 11-11-2008 at 12:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    ^^ At least you can give the man a chance. It seems like others can't there just waiting on him to fuck up so they can just have a reason to say I told you so.

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    Time will tell.
    You may not have to wait long ! Again resorting to foreign media ...

    (snip)"Reported Obama-Hamas Contacts Bode Ill

    Yet another clash between Obama’s anodyne public statements and behind-the-scenes activities of a different nature.

    November 11, 2008 - by P. David Hornik

    In an interview published Tuesday in the London-based Al-Hayat, Dr. Ahmad Yousef, political adviser to Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, said senior Hamas figures had held a secret meeting with advisers to Barack Obama in Gaza before the U.S. elections.

    Throughout his campaign Obama’s official line was that he would “only talk with Hamas if it renounces terrorism, recognizes Israel’s right to exist, and agrees to abide by past agreements.”

    Yet Damascus-based Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal responded to Obama’s win on an optimistic note, telling Australia’s Sky News on Saturday that his organization was “ready for dialogue with President Obama and with the new American administration with an open mind.”

    On Saturday night, though, Obama’s senior foreign policy coordinator Denis McDonough seemed to hold the fort, deflecting Mashaal’s amiability by reiterating Obama’s three-part formula for making Hamas acceptable.

    For those who don’t want America to have dealings with an Islamist terror organization like Hamas, that may have sounded reassuring. But now it seems it may be too soon to feel reassured.

    According to Yousef in the Al-Hayat interview, the Obama-Hamas talks were already ongoing during the U.S. election campaign: “We were in contact with a number of Obama’s aides through the Internet, and later met with some of them in Gaza, but they advised us not to reveal this information as it may influence the elections or become manipulated by McCain’s campaign.”

    Yousuf also claimed he personally had friendly relations with some of Obama’s advisers and that “Haniyeh will draft a congratulatory letter to Obama for his victory.”

    Yousuf added: “The policy Obama will instate in the Middle East will differ from that of his predecessor George W. Bush, although it is clear that the region and the Palestinian issue will not be at the top of his agenda. [Obama] will focus more on the economic crisis, Iraq, and Afghanistan.”

    A clash between Obama’s public, anodyne, mainstream statements and behind-the-scenes activities of a different nature would confirm the fears of those concerned about Obama’s history of association with radical people and ideologies."(snip)

    from

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    Hitchens has a brilliance but is fully invested in his allegiances. This is not a bias, a bias is in most cases a natural thing. Hitchens has an agenda. He is committed to validating his alliances and disqualifying those in-opposition to his allegiances.

    For a truly brilliant, revealing and enlightening foreign perspective on all things US, keep an ear and eye open for commentary by Fareed Zakaria who is the Editor of International edition of TIME Magazine. He is a regular contributor to the US addition of TIME mag. and also has a show on CNN.

    You'll only have to get a little taste of him to see he is clear and honest and with great depth. And he loves America.
    Last edited by LoriLove; 11-11-2008 at 10:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    In our parliament in Canada it is considered the solemn duty of "Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition" to oppose and criticize and hold the Prime Minister accountable. Criticism and illumination are helpful.

    If Parliament is to be preserved as a living institution His Majesty’s Loyal Opposition must fearlessly perform its functions. When it properly discharges them the preservation of our freedom is assured. The reading of history proves that freedom always dies when criticism ends. It upholds and maintains the rights of minorities against majorities. It must be vigilant against oppression and unjust invasions by the Cabinet of the rights of the people. It should supervise all expenditures and prevent over-expenditure by exposing to the light of public opinion wasteful expenditures or worse. It finds fault; it suggests amendments; it asks questions and elicits information; it arouses, educates and molds public opinion by voice and vote. It must scrutinize every action by the government and in doing so prevents the short-cuts through democratic procedure that governments like to make.

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    Quote Originally Posted by MoetATL07 View Post
    So okay whats your point in all of this. Every thread you start now is about Barack Obama.

    Seven and counting

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    Quote Originally Posted by LoriLove View Post
    Hitchens has a brilliance but is fully invested in his allegiances. This is not a bias, a bias is in most cases a natural thing. Hitchens has an agenda. He is committed to validating his alliances and disqualifying those in-opposition to his allegiances.

    For a truthly brilliant, revealing and enlightening foreign perspective on all things US, keep an ear and eye open for commentary by Fareed Zakaria who is the Foreign Editor of TIME Magazine. He is a regular contributor to the US addition of TIME mag. and also has a show on CNN.

    You'll only have to get a little taste of him to see he is clear and honest and with great depth. And he loves America.
    Yeah and he and Hitchens agree a lot more than they disagree.

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    my only point was to expose SW readers to opinion and assessment that they will probably NOT hear via US mainstream media.
    Thank-you Melonie, that's a great service you are offering. Obama's was favored over McCain by 95% in most every foriegn country except Israel so I assume you'll also be posting some of the many, many positive "opinions and assesments" that are being written about him in the foreign press.

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    Quote Originally Posted by arctic717 View Post
    Thank-you Melonie, that's a great service you are offering. Obama's was favored over McCain by 95% in most every foriegn country except Israel so I assume you'll also be posting some of the many, many positive "opinions and assesments" that are being written about him in the foreign press.
    Please post somthing positive about the man, it would be nice for a change.

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    ^^^ where would you like me to begin in terms of favorable foreign media coverage for Obama ? Iran, Cuba, North Korea ?

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    ^^^ where would you like me to begin in terms of favorable foreign media coverage for Obama ? Iran, Cuba, North Korea ?
    Sure!, start there and then England, Germany, Italy, Australia, France, China, Mexico. They and the other 275 countries excluding Israel are exstatic that Obama will be the President and that Bush is out and that McCain aint getting in.

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    I can't honestly respect any journalist who could so bastardize the truth as to report that America is "just as segregated today as it was before Martin Luther King Jr."

    I can not understand how such a statement could be considered truthful by any American.
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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    Quote Originally Posted by VegasPrincess View Post
    I can't honestly respect any journalist who could so bastardize the truth as to report that America is "just as segregated today as it was before Martin Luther King Jr."

    I can not understand how such a statement could be considered truthful by any American.
    America is not as segregated as it was before and it is also not forced like it was before but shit is still segregated.
    There are still black school and white school where I live there maybe a few minorties in these school but for the most part they are segregated.

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    if anything, america is more segregated in some senses of the term since suburbs and gated communities came along.

    america is 'lightly' integrated, with a smattering of token minorities living in many areas so white people can say 'see, segregation is totally non-existent! i haz a black neighbor! lol no racist i!'


    also worth noting that black people at one point lived pretty much in all 50 states (mostly before some of them were even states). then white people drove them out for the crime of...farming land and not bothering white people.

    so in that larger sense, america's plenty segregated, and getting more so each year.

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    Quote Originally Posted by MoetATL07 View Post
    America is not as segregated as it was before and it is also not forced like it was before but shit is still segregated.
    There are still black school and white school where I live there maybe a few minorties in these school but for the most part they are segregated.
    Quite often these days it is self-segregated. A very strange behavior.

    Hopefully with Obama's election, there will be less of a racial us vs them mentality.

    Unfortunately, it appears to be alive and well on both sides.

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    Quite often these days it is self-segregated. A very strange behavior.

    Hopefully with Obama's election, there will be less of a racial us vs them mentality.

    Unfortunately, it appears to be alive and well on both sides.

    Self Segregation is a funny thing to me. I purposely looked for a multiracial neighborhood when I moved down here to NC and I have no idea why others would not want to do the same. I liked going trick or treating and seeing all types of people out there with their kids.

    I think it's about people's comfort levels with other races and cultures. I agree it's on both sides too. My friend I had in high school always talked about moving out of the "White" suburb we grew up in in favor of the "Black" suburb because she didn't want to live around all those white people. I had no words for her. That's racist and is just as bad as whites who say they don't want to live around blacks. What's the reasoning? I understand if someone doesn't want to live around a different class of people (blacks not wanting to live with the lower class "ghetto" blacks and whites not wanting to live with the lower class "white trash" whites) but to just base who you want to live around based on race is kinda WTF inducing.

    I'm hopeful that an Obama presidency will start to heal the racial rifts but judging from some of the things I've seen over the past week, people are angry and we still have a long way to go. I'm not just talking about here on SW either. I've seen some people come out of the hate closet in real life too.

    Damn, sorry for the massive derail.
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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    That's hardly a universal 'foreign' perspective. The guy is clearly of Thatcherite bent. A lot of the supposed 'strengths' he listed (ie near-theocracy, denial of the existence of global warming and the excesses of the US justice system) aren't viewed as such by other developed countries.

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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    Quote Originally Posted by MoetATL07 View Post
    America is not as segregated as it was before and it is also not forced like it was before but shit is still segregated.
    There are still black school and white school where I live there maybe a few minorties in these school but for the most part they are segregated.
    Maybe its my perspective being from an Urban enviornment, but the school down the street from me is about 1/2 minority 1/2 white, as was my high school and the rest of them in this area.

    Same goes for the people that live here.
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    Default Re: Peter Hitchens with a 'foreign perspective' on Obama's election

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss_Luscious View Post
    Self Segregation is a funny thing to me. I purposely looked for a multiracial neighborhood when I moved down here to NC and I have no idea why others would not want to do the same. I liked going trick or treating and seeing all types of people out there with their kids.

    I think it's about people's comfort levels with other races and cultures. I agree it's on both sides too. My friend I had in high school always talked about moving out of the "White" suburb we grew up in in favor of the "Black" suburb because she didn't want to live around all those white people. I had no words for her. That's racist and is just as bad as whites who say they don't want to live around blacks. What's the reasoning? I understand if someone doesn't want to live around a different class of people (blacks not wanting to live with the lower class "ghetto" blacks and whites not wanting to live with the lower class "white trash" whites) but to just base who you want to live around based on race is kinda WTF inducing.

    I'm hopeful that an Obama presidency will start to heal the racial rifts but judging from some of the things I've seen over the past week, people are angry and we still have a long way to go. I'm not just talking about here on SW either. I've seen some people come out of the hate closet in real life too.

    Damn, sorry for the massive derail.
    Now that I am thinking about the past, I have a story that it isn't just racial.

    I knew a fellow who is a jew. The kind where you don't even bother calling him up on Saturday until dark because he won't answer the phone.

    Anyhow, he was very excited to be able to move into a "jewish" suburb someplace around Philadelphia.

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