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Thread: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    What is bugging me here is that you voted for a person you believe will bring about as you called it 'gloom and doom' and thus cause million and millions of people to suffer. I find that really, really offensive
    I voted for the candidate that I felt would be best for America in the long term ... since there wasn't any candidate among the two serious alternatives who was good for America in the short term. If that offends you, you obviously haven't studied Machiavelli or the 'real world'. Hopefully you were equally offended by Obama's chief of staff Rahm Emanuel's recent comments about 'not letting a Crisis go to waste' !



    At any rate, today Obama took another 'official' step in addressing the economic crisis. He nominated the comparatively inexperienced but Democratically well connected ex-Clintonista Tim Geithner as the new secretary of the treasury.

    (snip)"It was then that Robert Rubin, the onetime Clinton Treasury secretary, put forth a former colleague named Tim Geithner [ as nominee for NY Fed president - sic ]. Geithner had obvious assets. He'd spent the 1990s in a series of high-ranking Treasury jobs, where he worked alongside Rubin and his successor, Larry Summers, to stave off one financial crisis after another. Geithner also enjoyed a warm rapport with Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan, who could effectively veto the appointment.

    Still, there were question marks. Officially, the New York Fed is one of the country's top bank regulators; unofficially, it's the Federal Reserve system's "eyes and ears" on Wall Street. Geithner had neither a banking nor a Wall Street background. There was also the matter of his youthfulness. New York Fed presidents have traditionally been a grizzled, dyspeptic sort. At 43, Geithner was svelte and baby-faced, with teen-idol locks and a boyish voice to match. Who would take this man-child seriously? "(snip)

    PS it appears that Wall St and Detroit both love Geithner ... because they are confident that he will back the use of taxpayer 'bailout' money to maintain 'business as usual'.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 11-21-2008 at 02:39 PM.

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    Senior Member Lucy in the Sky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    If that offends you, you obviously haven't studied Machiavelli or the 'real world'.
    Oh now isn't that just fucking rich! You equate my being offended at someone who WANTS to see harm come to millions of people as being ignorant of the 'real world' and the works of Machiavelli.

    HA!

    I can assure you that could not be farther from the truth.

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    again you seemed to have missed my point. I am not wishing that harm to come to millions of people. I am merely acknowledging that harm IS going to come to millions of people, and that I am powerless to change that fact.

    As to the true causes of that harm, and the agents that will bring about that harm, I refer you to Machiavelli.

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    Read Frederic Bastiat instead of Machi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A9d%C3%A9ric_Bastiat


    "The govt creates the problems, and then offers solutions."


    "Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all. We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain." – from The Law
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
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    Senior Member Lucy in the Sky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    again you seemed to have missed my point. I am not wishing that harm to come to millions of people. I am merely acknowledging that harm IS going to come to millions of people, and that I am powerless to change that fact.

    That is so not true and there are posts all over this website that prove it.

    'nuff said!
    Last edited by Lucy in the Sky; 11-24-2008 at 11:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy in the Sky View Post
    That is so not true and there are posts all over this website that prove it.

    'nuff said!
    If you really believe that, then you are in desperate need of remedial READING.

    Melonie has NEVER gloated or wallowed in our economic misfortune. Events have proven her pessimism to have been spot on and well founded.

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    Obama warns about the economy: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27885917?GT1=43001

    Hmmm.
    The artist formerly known as your mom

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    The common question is: "are you better off now than you were eight years ago?"

    Mel has presented a lot of posts about our troubles, but few successes. Probably because there are so few. Not all have been objective, as I see objectivity. We all have a right to present our opinions. We can take criticism, but there is no need for insults, as those just reflect negatively and in all liklihood not influence the opinion-holder, if that is the objective. However, expressing dissenting opinions is how we try to arrive at the truth. and that should be the objective.

    I would prefer to be an optimist on this issue. So far I am slightly encouraged.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    And so far the team I've heard of looks good.

    But if they are doing their work now to get ready to MOVE on 1/20/09, as Obama says, I wonder who pays them. Also I wonder why we are paying GWB, who seems to be napping.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    Le Sigh.

    Melonie I really like you, I know that you clearly believe in what you say you do to put up with all the crap that people are saying to you in the these threads and I think that's awesome, bc it shows you have a back bone.

    That said, I don't believe in your beliefs, and I don't think what you're touting about the future of our economy is going to come to fruition.

    I also think it's really sad that you don't support higher taxation in favor of better governement resources. The fact is the reason we have so much crime , etc is bc people are poor, have no resources, and are desperate. Desperate times, desperate measures.

    The economy is FUCKED right now, you are right. I am a college educated, articulate, attractive young woman who has been seeking a job in a more professional field, and I can't get paid right now to do a damn thing but take my clothes off. Well, I can, but I have yet to be offered more than 10/hr.

    For a lot of people, the reality right now is if they can get a job, they are offered 7 dollars an hour. And it's not bc they are lazy crazy or stupid. It's just pure fact.

    We need a change, we do. When you combine my boyfriend and my income, together we aren't near the 250K range but we are far over the 100K range. I am 100 percent in support of paying more tax to make this world a better, more hopeful place.

    It saddens me that not everyone feels the same way I do.

    And as for the tax increases, paying 40% on your income of 300K a year is a far smaller sacrafice in regards to the quality of your life than paying 15% in taxes if you make 12K a year. And plenty of people earning minimum wage make between 10 and 12k. And not all of them have the option to make more money, and if they could, then our economy would fall apart as we wouldn't have any check out baggers at the super markets, people to clean the hospitals, ETC.

    Those people are still intitled to healthcare, fair housing, ETC, even if their jobs don't meet some standard of excellence in people's eyes. I'm sure being a stripper, there are plenty of people who think I am a worthless whore who deserves nothing, just as people (not you Mel just making an example) think the guy who shines their shoes or runs them through a car wash is subhuman.
    Sexy Jasmine after getting fucked over at work:

    God loves strippers and when guys do things like that its an automatic ticket to HELL!


    Quote Originally Posted by anomar View Post
    Perhaps you stopped spending money on her. Strippers need money to operate. They are like coin operated juke-boxes of love.

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    Quote Originally Posted by VegasPrincess View Post
    I also think it's really sad that you don't support higher taxation in favor of better governement resources.

    When you combine my boyfriend and my income, together we aren't near the 250K range but we are far over the 100K range. I am 100 percent in support of paying more tax to make this world a better, more hopeful place.

    It saddens me that not everyone feels the same way I do.

    Individuals have the opportunity to pay additional (voluntary) taxes, so the question is, do you? Do you send the government an additional amount of money to make up for your lower taxes?

    If not, your post made me lol, if so, I still lol'd.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    just as people (not you Mel just making an example) think the guy who shines their shoes or runs them through a car wash is subhuman.
    This brings us back full circle to the underlying points. How much productivity ( added value ) is created by shining shoes or washing cars ? What standard of living accompanies a person shining shoes or washing cars in Eastern Europe or Asia ? Who picks up the tab for the difference ?

    Those people are still intitled to healthcare, fair housing, ETC
    Nowhere in the US constitution is there a reference to people being entitled to healthcare, housing, or anything else other than the PURSUIT of happiness. The idea of all Americans being entitled to a minimum standard of living that their own abilities / productivity cannot pay for, with the tab being involuntarily picked up by the forced transfer of 'wealth' from other Americans with higher skills and productivity, is a 'foreign' political principle ... called socialism.

    On a personal note, I really wouldn't mind paying higher taxes if that money were actually to be used to make the world a better place. However, arguably, allowing the gov't to spend more money has not helped the US education system produce more ( and/or more competent) high school graduates, has not helped the US 'urban poor' become less poor etc. Arguably, what the additional money has done is to allow the gov't to grow bigger, to allow more ( unionized Democrat) public sector employees to receive a gov't paycheck etc. And arguably this is precisely the trend that the Obama administration would like to see continued.

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Nowhere in the US constitution is there a reference to people being entitled to healthcare, housing, or anything else other than the PURSUIT of happiness. The idea of all Americans being entitled to a minimum standard of living that their own abilities / productivity cannot pay for,


    Melonie, ohh Melonie you are sooo wrong. You see, our Constitution has what is commonly referred to as the General Welfare Clause. It entitles people to healthcare, housing, having children paid for, and everything else.

    signed, Dummo dem O'Cwat
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    ^^^ ah yes but if I'm not mistaken the constitutional terminology is 'promote the general welfare' ... not 'guarantee' or 'provide'. But I'm certain that a couple of new Supreme Court nominees can be found that will resort to foreign law or their own personal opinions and reach the 'new' interpretation you point out !

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    Senior Member Lucy in the Sky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    If you really believe that, then you are in desperate need of remedial READING.

    Melonie has NEVER gloated or wallowed in our economic misfortune.
    While ignoring the undeserved insult to my intelligence I respectfully disagree with your opinion.

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ ah yes but if I'm not mistaken the constitutional terminology is 'promote the general welfare' ... not 'guarantee' or 'provide'. But I'm certain that a couple of new Supreme Court nominees can be found that will resort to foreign law or their own personal opinions and reach the 'new' interpretation you point out !
    Most people assume the 'general welfare' statement in the preamble is the GWC (that allows unconstitutional crap to go on), but it is not. The GWC is actually::

    Article 1, Section 8 states:
    "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States."

    http://www.answers.com/topic/general-welfare-clause

    http://www.reasontofreedom.com/gener...re_clause.html
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    This brings us back full circle to the underlying points. How much productivity ( added value ) is created by shining shoes or washing cars ? ... Who picks up the tab for the difference ?....
    Here is the essence of the question. The value is in the judgement of the person wanting that service. For example, what is the 'value added' to me in whatever I am getting a stripclub? Nothing. If I go, it is because I want to and can pay my way (put money in others' pockets).

    What services you don't want/need you are free to avoid. But those you do want, you should pay a fair value for, and not exploit a worker (or contribute to that) because you have more economic power than they do.

    This has happened a lot on our country's past. I can post several examples right off the cuff. And it still happens even in this country.

    You don't think economic power can exploit workers? Just look at what those game-playing finance companies have done to us all by playing footsie with our 'government' for the past so many years.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    "Common Walfare" has nothing to do with the 'welfare state.' I look at it as like the infrastructure we need to attending to the country's needs, not just bridges and sewers but also systems we need for oversight on how the government is working.

    For example, are taxes collected over all of the country going to pay for work and facilities provided only to a few favored states or are they being spread more or less in proportion to where they come from and for the purposes needed for the common good? Oddly enough, this oversight is an area the government is still weak on.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    We have an awful lot of selfishness in this country (and in humans in general). In this country I guess it is because we are cajoled from birth to death to compete and get more and more for ourselves. We are told that we 'deserve it' by commercial advertisements over and over. Humans are intelligent and social enough to recognize that all of us have some degree of social responsibility to watch over and help others who are weaker or damaged in some way or are exploited by others. Yet we largely do not do this and when we do see it in others, it bothers us that it might take away some of the comfort and trappings that we expect for ourselves.

    For example look at post-Katrina New Orleans. How would those people have ever fared without help that takes away a little from each of us thru taxes, if thru nothing else.

    Many people just cannot see beyond their own personal welfare. Selfishness is certainly necessary for humans to survive, but excess selfishness can destroy others' ability to survive.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    Here is the essence of the question. The value is in the judgement of the person wanting that service.

    But those you do want, you should pay a fair value for, and not exploit a worker (or contribute to that) because you have more economic power than they do.

    But who determines fair value? Go over to the pink side (not the pinko site lol) and you will see how tough it has been in the SC for the employees to make money (especially in comparison to a number of years ago). Should we assess a minimum wage of 1K per shift (if she is unable to sell mass blocks or vip's)?

    How about when you get your car washed, is 20 bucks really sufficient? Wouldn't the employees do better if we adjusted the price to pay them 3x what they are earning now?

    We pay based on the service. I can go to a do it yourself car wash and it'll cost me 7.00. At the non do it yourself car wash, for 20.00 I get an even better set of services than when doing it myself. Is 20.00 a fair price? Absolutely. (I wouldn't mind even paying 5.00 more, but I'm not having it done for say 35.00.)

    Wages reflect that real value, and not someones idealism.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    For example look at post-Katrina New Orleans. How would those people have ever fared without help that takes away a little from each of us thru taxes, if thru nothing else.

    I think this is a different issue. No one really has a problem helping in these cases. It's the people who get a SSI designation of alcoholic/ drug addict/ etc. that we then pay for. And people doing nothing more than spreading their legs and making babies in order to get more welfare money.

    Everyone talks about the failure of the War on Drugs, but not about the failure of the War on Poverty. Wealth redistribution is a failure.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    Who determines value? YOU do.

    Who determines exploitation? Certainly not the person doing the exploiting.

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    But who determines fair value?...Should we assess a minimum wage of 1K per shift (if she is unable to sell mass blocks or vip's)?
    I don't understand.

    How about when you get your car washed, is 20 bucks really sufficient? Wouldn't the employees do better if we adjusted the price to pay them 3x what they are earning now?

    We pay based on the service... Wages reflect that real value, and not someones idealism.[/quote]

    Wages, via an employer, reflects what the employer chooses to pay, not what the consumer chooses to pay. Problem is that often jobs are in higher demand than supply and often employers do not pay fair wages because they know the worker needs to job badly enough that he/she is willinig to put up with bad conditions. A relevant example here is some of the sleazily-managed stripclubs.
    Last edited by threlayer; 11-27-2008 at 05:25 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    ...It's the people who get a SSI designation of alcoholic/ drug addict/ etc. that we then pay for. And people doing nothing more than spreading their legs and making babies in order to get more welfare money.

    Everyone talks about the failure of the War on Drugs, but not about the failure of the War on Poverty. Wealth redistribution is a failure.
    I agree with that, but the scope of the wealth redistribution is not in the larger scope you are expecting it to be. I further think that people on welfare, even with small kids, can do some work of value in some way. Far as that goes, actually most of us can do more than we are exployed for. And still futher, many employers can do more to help with the situation that they are currently willing to do.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    I have not even started discussing rest the issues of my concern.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Why Obama looks like a one-termer.

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    Who determines value? YOU do.

    Who determines exploitation? Certainly not the person doing the exploiting.

    I don't understand.

    Wages, via an employer, reflects what the employer chooses to pay, not what the consumer chooses to pay. Problem is that often jobs are in higher demand than supply and often employers do not pay fair wages because they know the worker needs to job badly enough that he/she is willinig to put up with bad conditions. A relevant example here is some of the sleazily-managed stripclubs.

    Right, but if the car washes decide to pay a wage 3x of what they do know, my 20.00 wash is now 35.00. It's no longer of value too me. I'll do it myself. And with the others who feel like me, 80% of car washes are now out of business, paying no one any wage.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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