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    Default yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela ...

    (snip)"Russian leader Medvedev heading to Cuba, Venezuela

    MOSCOW – Russian President Dmitry Medvedev plans to travel this month to Cuba and Venezuela, which have increasing military and trade ties with Moscow.

    The U.S. has objected to Russia's greater links with the two countries that have antagonistic relations with Washington.

    Medvedev will visit Cuba on Nov. 27, the Kremlin press service said. He will also visit Brazil during the trip.

    The Soviet Union was a stalwart supporter of Cuban leader Fidel Castro during the Cold War. Under Hugo Chavez, Venezuela has moved to buy millions of dollars in Russian weaponry and invited Russian energy giants to drill in the country's oil fields.

    A Russian naval flotilla is on its way to the Caribbean to hold joint military exercises with Venezuelan forces."(snip)

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    I'm struggling to find any indication that this is consequential.

    Along the lines of reasoning you've been touting, you could blame the world events immediately following each and every US election since Washington's day on the results of that election, which is self-evidently ludicrous. I'm sure you know that correlation and causation are not the same thing.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    ???????????. They also had exercises there in Sept. You are really grasping at straws.

    Besides, do you have even a little bit of an inkling that maybe all the stuff is the result of our current administration being off the charts beligerent with pretty much every country, making all kinds of threats, making unsanctioned attacks in several countries and in the case of Russia trying to surround them with a missile shield as well as provoking trouble in Georgia?



    Chavez lauds Russian military exercise
    Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:25:19 GMT
    Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez
    Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has praised a military exercise with Russian strategic bombers and announced plans to travel to Moscow.

    Last week Chavez announced the landing of two Russian Tu-160 strategic bombers in Venezuela.
    During a press conference at the presidential palace in Caracas on Tuesday, he expressed approval of the military exercise, calling it a “marvelous” success.
    It was the first time such aircraft have landed in the West since the Cold War ended. The two countries also plan to hold joint military exercises later this year.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    ^^^ understood that the bear bombers were quid-pro-quo for Bush's actions re the Georgian 'invasion'. However, that timing coincided with the 'news cycle distraction' of the Chinese olympics, and arguably coincided with US election poll results showing an insurmountable lead for Barack Obama.

    as always, there is no way to prove that any coincidental event is anything more than a pure coincidence. As an unrelated example, by pure coincidence some dancers who aren't the most 'stunning' girls working in a strip club out-earn other more 'stunning' dancers by a wide margin- but of course there is no way to prove the existance of any underlying reason for this apparently illogical coincidence (until the club is busted).

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    understood that the bear bombers were quid-pro-quo for Bush's actions re the Georgian 'invasion'. However, that timing coincided with the 'news cycle distraction' of the Chinese olympics, and arguably coincided with US election poll results showing an insurmountable lead for Barack Obama.
    Not sure what you mean by this. The facts are though the first steps of that dance where Georgia launching an unprovoked attack on South Ossetia on Aug 7th just after one of Cheney's closest assistants made a visit.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    ^^^ you could have added the Israeli presence in Georgia as well.

    At any rate, returning to the post-election announcements from Russia, OK you convinced me that these must be a pure coincidence and are totally unrelated to the international perception of Barack Obama being incapable of resorting to foreign military action ... because it's impossible to factually prove any aspects. I've been similarly convinced that the Hamas rocket attacks against Israel, which began immediately after the election must be a pure coindicence and totally unrelated to the international perception of Barack Obama lending far less support to Israel ... because it's similarly impossible to factually prove any aspects.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    ^^^^Once again????, there wasn't any proof of any Israelis in Georgia prior to it invading South Ossentia as there was with Cheney's right hand man.

    Not sure how our ally Georgia beginning unprovoked hostilities again South Ossentia and baiting Russia into action correlates into Russia taking advantage of the fact that it looked like Obama would win. It's an especially hard leap of logic as well since at the the time he had all of a 3% lead in the polls.

    I've been similarly convinced that the Hamas rocket attacks against Israel, which began immediately after the election must be a pure coindicence
    When has Hamas not sent rockets at Israel?. Would you like me to dig up the hundreds of stories of attacks while Bush I, II were in office or even your beloved Reagan. How about then they blew up the Marine baracks in Lebanon while Reagan was in office and he turned tail and ran. Based on all you conservatives outlook, that "weakness" by Reagan may have had a huge impact our problems with the Islamo-terrorists.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    ^^^^^ Just did a little research and you're right, I should have mentioned Israel's involvment in this conflict.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    ^^^ yup, this is more than a bit off topic ... but it was arguably the major economic and military advisory involvement by Israelis in Georgia (as well as other former Soviet satellite states) that prompted Russian action in the first place.

    Again none of this is provable, but the 'tin foil hat' crowd will tell you that a host of such American-Israeli positions has finally pissed off the Russians to the point where they feel they must take actions to prevent further American-Israeli 'progress' in Georgia / Ukraine / Eastern Europe ... and if possible try to roll back 'progress' already made. The Russians realize that it is already too late to do anything about the Baltic countries ... since they have been admitted to NATO. To that end, the Russians have taken and are taking military steps in Kaliningrad, in Tartus, Syria etc. in addition to their steps in Georgia. Also to that end, the Russians appear to be attempting the arrangement of 'a separate peace' with Western Europe (see last couple of days' news stories) that will preclude any possible repeat of former Soviet satellite countries being added to NATO.

    In that context, the election of Barack Obama is perceived by the Russians to be in their favor, since it implies a weakening of 'unconditional' American support for Israel as well as a much lower probability of any future US military response close to Russia (i.e. should Russian troops attempt to 'protect' Russian citizens living in the Ukraine).

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    In that context, the election of Barack Obama is perceived by the Russians to be in their favor, since it implies a weakening of 'unconditional' American support for Israel as well as a much lower probability of any future US military response close to Russia (i.e. should Russian troops attempt to 'protect' Russian citizens living in the Ukraine).
    I guess that is one way to look at it and phrase it and another would be to say that because Obama is in there won't be an antagonistic, war-loving, beligerent U.S. policy to content with as well as the possibility of replacing "unconditional" support for Israel (which hurts both Israel and the Arabs) with fair support for Israel and her Arab neighbors.

    Clinton didn't carry a big stick during his presidency, he befriended China and Russia, we traded and all benefitted economically. There was peace gained in Northern Ireland, and except for fringe groups and regional disputes the world was a relatively peaceful place. I'll take that any day over the bluster, antagonism and unilateral aggressiveness of the last 8 years.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    ^^^ well, I'll leave the legacy of Clinton's international policies to the historians, as I also will for any future evaluation regarding the consequences of greatly expanded US economic relations with China during the Clinton years.

    Circling back on topic, the recent increase / renewal of ties between Russia and Cuba / Venezuela / factions in other south American countries is potentially in a whole different league. Viewed objectively, it could be construed as Russia embarking on international relationships with countries near the USA that are precisely analogous to America embarking on international relationships with countries near Russia. America obviously has long-standing international policies going all the way back to President James Monroe about the presence / expansion of 'foreign powers' within the North American hemisphere. Russia had far less well established international policies re the Black Sea being a 'Russian Lake'.

    The point here of course is that if Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, and rival elements of certain other South American countries do in fact wind up creating a serious challenge to the Monroe Doctrine, president Obama will be caught between a 'rock and a hard place'. The last time this happened, JFK elected to sustain the Monroe Doctrine at the risk of precipitating World War 3. Returning to more 'tin foil hat' speculation, it is doubted that president Obama would be willing to take similar risks ... indeed resulting in a major 'change' in American policy / status as a global power. Whether such a 'change' is considered to be a good thing or a bad thing, and by whom, is of course an entirely different question (and one that I am not asking) !

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    Let's get ready to rumble.
    "The Monroe Doctrine is a U.S. doctrine which, on December 2, 1823, stated that European powers were no longer to colonize or interfere with the affairs of the newly independent states of the Americas. The United States would not interfere with existing colonies or their dependencies in the Western Hemisphere. However, any attempt by a European nation to oppress or control any nation in the western hemisphere would be seen as an act of aggression and the United States would intervene. "

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    The point here of course is that if Russia, Cuba, Venezuela, and rival elements of certain other South American countries do in fact wind up creating a serious challenge to the Monroe Doctrine, president Obama will be caught between a 'rock and a hard place
    There is no rock and hard place, almost all of this tension is of the US neo-conservative hawks making. All these alliances are by and large a result of the current administrations menacing rhetoric and poorly conceived hostile actions. Without a doubt there is a time when an out of control country or leader must be stopped and decisive action and even war is necessary to put them in thier place. However, here and now that out of control country is us. There is no one to put us in our place, although alliances are forming: Russia, Iran, Nicaraugua, Venezuela, Ecuador, Bolivia, Cuba, Syria, Brazil. If the path continues unhindered it will be devastating. I think with Obama we will see a thawing of all this stupid BS that only the neo-cons and weapon manufacturers like.

    I really wish it was possible to split the country into red and blue. You guys take McCain and we'll stick with Obama and go our merry way. I'm done with this pointless arguing. We'll see what happens with Obama in 6 months then a year. Just do me one favor, if he does happen to turn the economy around don't try to tell us it wasn't him but the result of something Bush did during his presidency. That would put me over the deep end. See you in 6 months!.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by arctic717 View Post
    Just do me one favor, if he does happen to turn the economy around don't try to tell us it wasn't him but the result of something Bush did during his presidency.
    +1!
    The artist formerly known as your mom

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    We'll see what happens with Obama in 6 months then a year. Just do me one favor, if he does happen to turn the economy around don't try to tell us it wasn't him but the result of something Bush did during his presidency. That would put me over the deep end. See you in 6 months!.
    I'll go along with this ... we'll agree to look again at the US economy 6 months after Obama takes office (i.e. mid July 200 and one year after Obama takes office (mid January 2009).


    There is no rock and hard place, almost all of this tension is of the US neo-conservative hawks making. All these alliances are by and large a result of the current administrations menacing rhetoric and poorly conceived hostile actions
    The 'rock and a hard place' I referred to was in the context of allowing a foreign power (in this case the Russians) to turn Cuba, Venezuela etc. into 'Russian Colonies' in violation of the Monroe Doctrine. The 'tin foil hat' crowd is of the opinion that Obama subscribes to the NWO vision ... i.e. building a huge wall at the Panamanian / Columbian border, with everything north of that wall falling under an expanded NAFTA political and economic coalition, and everything south of that wall falling as it may !!!

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    My feeling is that the economy is going to stay crappy for a few years no matter what is done or who is in power. I tend to think its foundations need rebuilding, which won't happen overnight.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    Australia actually has wealth creating foundations which it CAN rebuild on ... natural resources extraction, industrial production, etc. Most of the 'foundations' remaining in the USA all revolve around providing a service ... financial services, IT services, insurance services etc. to another company that actually creates wealth. Unfortunately, very few wealth creating companies actually still exist in America these days.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Australia actually has wealth creating foundations which it CAN rebuild on ... natural resources extraction, industrial production, etc. Most of the 'foundations' remaining in the USA all revolve around providing a service ... financial services, IT services, insurance services etc. to another company that actually creates wealth. Unfortunately, very few wealth creating companies actually still exist in America these days.
    Oh, I was referring to the USA there, though I tend to think we are also going to slide into recession at some point, due to the US buying fewer Chinese exports. I just don't think it will hit us as deeply as the US.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    and not to be outdone ...



    (snip)HAVANA, Nov 16 (Reuters) - China's President Hu Jintao travels to Cuba on Monday for a close-up look at the government of new President Raul Castro, a fellow communist struggling to lead his island nation through the devastating effects of three hurricanes and the international financial crisis.

    Hu visited Cuba in 2004 to oversee the signing of 16 cooperation agreements and was expected to sign more on the economy, trade, education and other areas during his two-day stop, the Chinese government said.

    Hu, who attended Saturday's Group of 20 global economy summit in Washington, was to stop in Costa Rica on Sunday before starting his two-day visit to Cuba. He will go to Peru later in the week for the Asian-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit, then on to Greece.

    Cuba's economy was still suffering from the demise of the Soviet Union during Hu's last visit but has rebounded largely due to integration with oil-rich Venezuela and Chinese loans.

    China is now Cuba's largest trading partner after Venezuela at $2.3 billion in 2007 -- four times what it was in 2004 -- despite stark differences in their economic policies and little direct Chinese investment.

    China adopted market economics long ago while Cuba still has a Soviet-style command system where more than 90 percent of the economy is in state hands.

    The Chinese loans are starting to come due at a time when Cuba has suffered $10 billion in damage from the three recent storms, prices of nickel, its main export, have dropped sharply and oil prices, which sustain ally Venezuela, have declined.

    Restructuring those debts and future credits will certainly be on Hu's agenda, western diplomats said.

    LONG-TERM PLAYER

    The two countries' ruling parties have worked hard since the collapse of European communism to align their foreign policies and overcome a bitter heritage resulting from Cuba's backing of the Soviet Union against China during the Cold War.

    Cuba has supported China's claim to Taiwan and Tibet."(snip)

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    There is a lot of chatter about a replay of the Cuban Missile Crisis. In response to our installing anti-missile defenses in Europe; Russia will put missiles in Cuba.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    ^^^ AND Russian missiles / bombers stationed in Venezuela as well !

    But hey this is all just pure coincidence and we are being paranoid, right ?

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    and the hits just keep on coming ...

    (snip)MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia's Communists expect the global financial crisis will cause social unrest and help them challenge for power, the party's leader said on Saturday.

    Gennady Zyuganov told the party's annual congress the Communists should make maximum use of the growing public discontent caused by the economic downturn to try to restore their political strength.

    "The wind of history is blowing in our sails again ... At this time of crisis the world of imperialism is starting to die. We are standing on the threshold of political and social shifts," Zyuganov said in a 2-hour speech opening the congress.

    Russia's Communists ruled the Soviet Union for eight decades and remained a major opposition force for several years after the collapse of the Soviet Union at the end of 1991.

    But the party has since lost much of its authority and many analysts say it is too weak to seriously challenge for power.

    The Russian authorities are trying to minimise the impact of the financial crisis by promising billions of dollars of state aid. Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has pledged higher social payments to the needy and lower taxes for business.

    "The authorities are clearly not coping with managing the country ... A mass social protest is brewing and it is hard to predict now when and in what shape it will explode," Zyuganov said.

    The Kremlin has acknowledged the crisis will lead to a rise in popular discontent, challenging the massive popularity that Putin secured in eight years as president and handed on to his successor, Dmitry Medvedev.

    Medvedev has ordered police to stamp out any social unrest arising from the crisis and Interior Minister Rashid Nurgaliyev has said higher unemployment could lead to a rise in crime(snip)

    plus

    (snip)CARACAS, Venezuela – Venezuela's state news agency says three days of joint naval exercises with Russia will kick off in Venezuelan waters on Monday.

    The state-run Bolivarian News Agency says the operation involving 11 Venezuelan and four Russian ships has been christened Venrus 2008.

    Saturday's report said exercises will include anti-aircraft defense and tactics to combat terrorism and drug trafficking. Some will involve helicopters and planes.

    The Russian squadron arrived in Venezuela on Tuesday, led by the nuclear-powered cruiser Peter the Great — the first deployment of its kind since the Cold War.

    It's widely seen as a demonstration of Kremlin anger over aid delivered by U.S. warships to Georgia after its fighting with Russia. Russian officials deny that."(snip)

    from

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    Default Re: yet more post-election 'consequences' - Russian President Visits Cuba, Venezuela

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post

    But hey this is all just pure coincidence and we are being paranoid, right ?
    Coincidence? Maybe.

    Paranoid? Definitely!

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