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Thread: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    Regarding banks being forced to make loans to people who could not afford to pay off the loans (subprime loans).... Several banks chose to recognize the problem and were able to avoid those risky decisions. It's not that the rest of them were too stupid to avoid the problem. Instead they figured a way to accommodate the risk with the expectation of making increased net profits. Turns out that way was even more risky. That's the part that was stupid. The Rebublican administration, in their efforts to 'reduce government' by deregulating capitalistic interests, let them develop their own Vegas-style games. The administration of many of its early years certainly had the power to change laws regarding how FM and FM were operating under; yet they didn't. Even when the obvious housing bubble indicated that things were going wrong with those laws/policies.That's their part in the stupidity.

    I have to presume this was because the Republican administration liked to play 'footises' with capitalists, who at the time were making big money. In their inattention to the rest of world economics (here oil speculation), they neglected to recognize the effect of rising prices on people's abilities to make those mortgage payments. They also forgot to keep an eye on just what those deregulated finance/bank organizations were doing in their new deregulated 'playgrounds'.

    I'm saying Bush's people had plenty of chances to observe and to change the rules. But they like to see big businesses make lots of money, regardless of the consequences to the actual workers in this country. This latter characteristic has been true for most all Republican incarnations. And its is precisely why there MUST be an opposition party. People tend to like to make enemies so they can get into little fights because it is fun. However, if the Democrats disappeared, as most of the 'conservatives' I know would appear to like, this country would become very unbalanced and would fail in just a few administrations. The truth is that overall the country NEEDS to be balanced in the longer term, and every few administations the tide needs to turn around.

    I am a Centrist and I've voted for Republicans and Democrats when it made sense at the time. I've been voting for many general elections and I've seen a lot. I believe the biggest political danger to our political system is putting idealogues in power for too long. I even believe in limiting the terms of Congress.
    When you get past your passion there is actually a lot of truth in what you say.
    The Republicans got into trouble the same way Nixon got into (economic ) trouble : By trying to be like the Democrats. By trying to follow liberal policies believing they could implement them better than the Democrats.

    No bank was REQUIRED to issue sub-prime mortgages under the CRA. However, if they planned on expanding or taking over another bank they had to demonstrate compliance with CRA goals and the "community" could challenge any expansion or takeover based on inadequate "investment in the community".

    Likewise there were plenty of sub-prime lenders who behaved ethically and whose borrowers are current on their mortgages.

    It was not the sub-prime lenders who came up with mortgage backed securities ( MBS's) and credit default swaps ( CDS's). It was Morgan Stanley and Lehman Brothers and AIG.

    As we've repeatedly pointed out, it was NOT Phil Gramm's legislation alone; or the Dems obstructing reform of Fannie and Freddie by itself; or too much loose money from the Fed. but ALL of those things together along with plenty more that
    combined to create and then burst the housing bubble.

  2. #27
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    ^^ BoA took over MANY banks.

    As we've both said, there is a LOT of guilt to go around.

    If I have shown any unintended 'passion', it is about stupidity. I do have some passion about people understanding each other and about smartly working toward common benefits. My passion is much better shown in my music and in private with a few women, at times.


    ----
    In another comment, the difference between a presumption and an assumption is all in the prefix, 'pre'.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    ... the Al Queda prisoners are NOT POW's. We can line them up tomorrow and shoot them if we want to.
    How do you arrive at that? Lack of a foreign government's support?
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    How do you arrive at that? Lack of a foreign government's support?
    Exactly.


    Article 4

    A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

    1. Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict as well as members of militias or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

    2. Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions:

    (a) That of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;

    (b) That of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;

    (c) That of carrying arms openly;

    (d) That of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

    3. Members of regular armed forces who profess allegiance to a government or an authority not recognized by the Detaining Power.

    4. Persons who accompany the armed forces without actually being members thereof, such as civilian members of military aircraft crews, war correspondents, supply contractors, members of labour units or of services responsible for the welfare of the armed forces, provided that they have received authorization from the armed forces which they accompany, who shall provide them for that purpose with an identity card similar to the annexed model.

    5. Members of crews, including masters, pilots and apprentices, of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft of the Parties to the conflict, who do not benefit by more favourable treatment under any other provisions of international law.

    6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.

    B. The following shall likewise be treated as prisoners of war under the present Convention:

    1. Persons belonging, or having belonged, to the armed forces of the occupied country, if the occupying Power considers it necessary by reason of such allegiance to intern them, even though it has originally liberated them while hostilities were going on outside the territory it occupies, in particular where such persons have made an unsuccessful attempt to rejoin the armed forces to which they belong and which are engaged in combat, or where they fail to comply with a summons made to them with a view to internment.

    2. The persons belonging to one of the categories enumerated in the present Article, who have been received by neutral or non-belligerent Powers on their territory and whom these Powers are required to intern under international law, without prejudice to any more favourable treatment which these Powers may choose to give and with the exception of Articles 8, 10, 15, 30, fifth paragraph, 58-67, 92, 126 and, where diplomatic relations exist between the Parties to the conflict and the neutral or non-belligerent Power concerned, those Articles concerning the Protecting Power. Where such diplomatic relations exist, the Parties to a conflict on whom these persons depend shall be allowed to perform towards them the functions of a Protecting Power as provided in the present Convention, without prejudice to the functions which these Parties normally exercise in conformity with diplomatic and consular usage and treaties.

    C. This Article shall in no way affect the status of medical personnel and chaplains as provided for in Article 33 of the present Convention.


    The Geneva Conventions are for the Protection of Uniformed Armed Forces in Declared war between rival Governments.

    The Geneva and the Hague do not apply to non State aligned Terrorist organizations.

    Example The US a signatory to both Treaties cannot use hollow point or expanding bullets in declared combat against the uniformed forces of another Nation. However said munitions can be used against Terrrorists as these are declared criminals in International Law.

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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    So far has Bush has blown the hell out of the middle east,
    From my personal experience, President Bush didn't give the order to blow up enough of the place, or in the right locations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    , has ravaged the military,
    Say what? How do you get there? During the Clinton years we had drawdowns and reductions in for reducing the US Army alone from 2.1 million Soldiers to 785,000. During the same time the OpTempo went from 12 deployments to 88. The ask don't tell policy. A succession of political appointees to DoD positions of questionable worth. Continued reductions in spending until Soldiers were forced to train without ammunition or fuel for vehicles because the majority of the budget was going to overseas operations. A surcharge applied to goods purchased at the PX/BX to pay for operation overseas. Less than cost of living annual pay raises. Funding for new equipment or replacements slashed. During this period hordes of the really smart, competent, and best trained left to work in the civilian sector. Forming corporations like MPRI or Blackwater.

    The Clinton years were agony for the Military, openly despised by the Fornicator in Chief, Slick Willy. Where ever SecDef Cohen might be, I hope someone has tracked his ass down a shoved a splintery stick through his heart.

    If by ravaged your are talking about U.S. Military members killed or wounded in Combat. Why? That is their job and they are expecting it. I did it for 15 years, with deployments all around the world. You expect it, acknowledge it, and carry on with your Duty. Honor the Fallen and take care of the Families.

    With President Bush there is Honor again restored to Military Service and Vietnam Veterans can come out and be appreciated for their sacrifices. The VA has been held accountable, services expanded and upgraded, and the stigma is much removed from receiving VA services.

    While the US Army has not been able to get out from under the Congressional Troop Strength cap, the transformations in equipment improvements and funding has been dramatic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    has run up historically high debt and deficits,
    If it wasn't for infrastructure, securing ports of entry, and the Southern Border; Then yeah it was crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    scrapped the Geneva convention (used torture),
    Doesn't apply to terrorist organizations since the are not the Uniformed Forces of a recognized State. Terrorist organizations are criminal organizations under International law and this is why we have trials for them. Course we can in fact just shoot them on the spot and be done with them.

    Curiously, I didn't see the Iraqi Forces (before they fell apart) or the Militias abiding by the Geneva Conventions. Using marked ambulances to transport combatants and munitions, using structures such as hospitals, school, and mosques as areas of resistance and caches. Using torture just for amusement and as an attempt to lower US forces morale. Which doesn't work just pisses us off.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    Who the hell elected this jerk?
    Well I voted for him twice, but this was self serving since it meant better pay, new equipment, and better accommodations.

  6. #31
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Though all this is OT, is it correct that these postulated terrorists do not fall into Article 4 Category A.2. ?
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  7. #32
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    Though all this is OT, is it correct that these postulated terrorists do not fall into Article 4 Category A.2. ?
    That is correct. Terrorists do not belong recieve the Protections under Article 4 Section A 2. This is because they are not the Armed Forces or Militia of a High Contracting Party, AKA Nation State, AKA a Country.

  8. #33
    Senior Member Lucy in the Sky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    I'm sorry but facts are facts. The Geneva Convention covers POW's and the Al Queda prisoners are NOT POW's. We can line them up tomorrow and shoot them if we want to.
    Since you feel the need to defend torture I guess I must respond even if out of nothing more than an obligation to decency.

    One needs to look no further than Article 5 of the Geneva to see that the definition of a POW is not as clear-cut as you would have us believe.

    Part of that article reads:


    "Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined"


    Now it is true that torture loving conservatives tried to create a new "status" in order to circumvent the Geneva but The Military Commissions Act of 2006 ( which is what gave the President the powers to declare who is an enemy combatant, decide who should be held indefinitely without being charged with a crime and define what is and what is not torture and abuse) was ruled by the Supreme Court ruled to be unconstitutional.


    Key words there ^ being ruled unconstitutional.

    Now considering that the purpose of the Geneva Conventions is obviously NOT to foil the war on terror but rather to regulate warfare. The intent is clearly to apply some of humanity to the most brutal of human activities.

    Also considering the fact that since the Geneva Conventions was signed in 1949 and the U.S has never previously denied the application of it in any war (despite several opportunities to do so) do we really want to abandon that tradition of decency and humanity?

    Is that the identity we want for our country? In the wake of anti-American sentiment following the invasion of Iraq and the Abu Ghraib and Gitmo prison scandals, shouldn't we be imposing HIGHER standards of morality rather than ridding ourselves of them?

    A final thought on this matter- the defense of torture says as much about the person defending it as conducting torture does about the person committing torture.

  9. #34
    Senior Member Lucy in the Sky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    That is correct. Terrorists do not belong recieve the Protections under Article 4 Section A 2. This is because they are not the Armed Forces or Militia of a High Contracting Party, AKA Nation State, AKA a Country.

    Yes and no. They are not protected under 4 A.2 but they are protected under Article 5.

    Furthermore as I just explained in my previous post the status of "enemy combat" in term of how it was being used by Bush has been ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.

    Thus not applying the Geneva to prisoners is not only unethical and immoral but also are illegal.

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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    ARTICLE 5

    The present Convention shall apply to the persons referred to in Article 4 from the time they fall into the power of the enemy and until their final release and repatriation.

    Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.


    Since Terrorists do not belong to a High Contracting Party as members of the Armed Forces or Militias and there is no doubt of their membership to a Terrorist organization. Article 5 doesn't apply, there is no doubt. These terrorists were captured on the battlefield, in raids conducted by the Military, or by Intelligence Agencies. The Terrorists are accorded the rights of criminals under International Law.
    Last edited by ArmySGT.; 12-03-2008 at 05:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy in the Sky View Post
    Yes and no. They are not protected under 4 A.2 but they are protected under Article 5.

    bwahahaha


    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy in the Sky View Post
    Thus not applying the Geneva to prisoners is not only unethical and immoral but also are illegal.

    So tell me, when are you going over to talk to the terrorists and demand they treat their prisoners (sic) with the rights afforded under the Geneva Convention?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    God/dess Paris's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    From my personal experience, President Bush didn't give the order to blow up enough of the place, or in the right locations.

    Say what? How do you get there? During the Clinton years we had drawdowns and reductions in for reducing the US Army alone from 2.1 million Soldiers to 785,000. During the same time the OpTempo went from 12 deployments to 88. The ask don't tell policy. A succession of political appointees to DoD positions of questionable worth. Continued reductions in spending until Soldiers were forced to train without ammunition or fuel for vehicles because the majority of the budget was going to overseas operations. A surcharge applied to goods purchased at the PX/BX to pay for operation overseas. Less than cost of living annual pay raises. Funding for new equipment or replacements slashed. During this period hordes of the really smart, competent, and best trained left to work in the civilian sector. Forming corporations like MPRI or Blackwater.
    Would the United States be able to deal with a bonafide attack and/or invasion from a powerful nation (Russia for instance) if it were to happen today? Everyone knows we went to war for oil. There is the distinct possibility that if the money dedicated to the largest military force on the planet was redirected into domestic energy production (like what Brazil has done), a greater level of peace, stability and prosperity would have been the result.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    The Clinton years were agony for the Military, openly despised by the Fornicator in Chief, Slick Willy. Where ever SecDef Cohen might be, I hope someone has tracked his ass down a shoved a splintery stick through his heart.

    If by ravaged your are talking about U.S. Military members killed or wounded in Combat. Why? That is their job and they are expecting it. I did it for 15 years, with deployments all around the world. You expect it, acknowledge it, and carry on with your Duty. Honor the Fallen and take care of the Families.
    Clinton had the right idea about drawing down the military. I don't know the details about how it was done, but most nations, ours included, reduces forces and military spending in peace time. That is, until world war 2. The cold war changed a lot about the way national defense was done. The cold war ended in 1989, leaving the United States the sole remaining super power. The natural result of peace would be a reduction of military forces.

    It is tough to be a buggy whip manufacturer when everyone is driving cars.

    And, yes, I meant that it was a shame that American men and women were sent to fight an unnecessary war. All those lives, all the families that were affected and for what? To be hated even more by most most of the planet. Sure, the war made a small percentage of the population obcenely wealthy, but that is hardly a good reason to lie the American people into this never ending quagmire.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    With President Bush there is Honor again restored to Military Service and Vietnam Veterans can come out and be appreciated for their sacrifices. The VA has been held accountable, services expanded and upgraded, and the stigma is much removed from receiving VA services.
    Too bad vets services aren't being sufficently funded, but millionaire bankers are being handed huge wads of cash. Just last month we built an Iraq vet a ramp for his home (pro bono) because he had lost his legs. He was a prisoner in his own home due to not being able to afford to have a wheelchair ramp built. It cost us $600 in materials and 8 hours of our time. That man may be waiting YEARS before the VA would processes his claim to have his home made accessible. I shudder at the thought of what might happen if he was home alone and a fire broke out.



    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post
    Well I voted for him twice, but this was self serving since it meant better pay, new equipment, and better accommodations.
    That was a rhetorical question, btw.


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    Would the United States be able to deal with a bonafide attack and/or invasion from a powerful nation (Russia for instance) if it were to happen today? Everyone knows we went to war for oil. There is the distinct possibility that if the money dedicated to the largest military force on the planet was redirected into domestic energy production (like what Brazil has done), a greater level of peace, stability and prosperity would have been the result.
    Oh absolutely. What you are seeing is a partial use of the Active Duty and a piecemeal Activation of the National Guard and Reserves. There are many Veterans that are getting long in the tooth but capable of shouldering a rifle if the chinese came ashore in San Diego or the Russians and Venezuelans landed in Corpus Christi. We have shed all those peacetime hacks that occupied space as Generals. The Soldiers have something very valuable, experience. The US Military is now even more capable of fighting two simultaneous conflicts (Central Germany, and South Korea) like we prepared for during the Cold War.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    Clinton had the right idea about drawing down the military. I don't know the details about how it was done, but most nations, ours included, reduces forces and military spending in peace time. That is, until world war 2. The cold war changed a lot about the way national defense was done. The cold war ended in 1989, leaving the United States the sole remaining super power. The natural result of peace would be a reduction of military forces.

    It is tough to be a buggy whip manufacturer when everyone is driving cars.
    See we didn't have Peace, the chances went down for WW3, but Peace didn't break out on 9 November, 1989 when the Soviet Union Collapsed. Heck the Soviets had something like three coups until the Russian Federation was formed. The Balkans exploded, Iraq invaded Kuwait, Ethiopia and Eritrea slaughtered each other. President H.W Bush, President Clinton, and President G.W. Bush all chose to intervene. President H.W. Bush started the drawdowns after the first Gulf War. President Clinton ramped them up, speeding up the timeline, and gutted the budget for experimental systems as well as procurement for replacement of existing due to use or loss in training. Under President G.W. Bush, the DoD has had eight years to play catch up with tech superiority. They have done well, but there is many areas to go. The tech edge is what we relied on during the Cold War. We knew we couldn't field 15,000 tanks like the Soviet Army, So we worked on systems to makes sure we could make it costly for them in trading 20 tanks for every one of ours. Stuff like that. Besides Defense research spending pays of big dividends for the Civilian world too. Medicine definitely, new materials. RADAR was a top secret military project once, civilian airports could hardly function without it now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    And, yes, I meant that it was a shame that American men and women were sent to fight an unnecessary war. All those lives, all the families that were affected and for what? To be hated even more by most most of the planet. Sure, the war made a small percentage of the population obcenely wealthy, but that is hardly a good reason to lie the American people into this never ending quagmire.
    I think it is to early to start writing the history books. The other side has hardly been interviewed as yet. Personally I think It should have been Iran and Afghanistan. The would have cooled so many other trouble spots in the Middle east, without Iran funding them and supportiing them with weapons, training, and money.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    Too bad vets services aren't being sufficently funded, but millionaire bankers are being handed huge wads of cash. Just last month we built an Iraq vet a ramp for his home (pro bono) because he had lost his legs. He was a prisoner in his own home due to not being able to afford to have a wheelchair ramp built. It cost us $600 in materials and 8 hours of our time. That man may be waiting YEARS before the VA would processes his claim to have his home made accessible. I shudder at the thought of what might happen if he was home alone and a fire broke out.
    Vet services are underfunded, have always been. I think the argument could be made that Vet services could never be funded enough really. Vet services are being funded more now, Congressional watch dogs have been all over the VA to improve their Services and Facilities. Private foundations such as Fisher House has stepped up when Congress can't get its own Bureaucracy into action.

    Thank you for taking care of that Vet. His sacrifice means we can sit here and freely bash or Government, without fear of Secret police taking us away to a Gulag somewhere to die in chains.


    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    That was a rhetorical question, btw.
    I know, but I was taught to own up to a decision good or bad.

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    Senior Member Lucy in the Sky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySGT. View Post

    Since Terrorists do not belong to a High Contracting Party as members of the Armed Forces or Militias and there is no doubt of their membership to a Terrorist organization. Article 5 doesn't apply, there is no doubt. These terrorists were captured on the battlefield, in raids conducted by the Military, or by Intelligence Agencies. The Terrorists are accorded the rights of criminals under International Law.
    Having stated and proved my case regarding article 5 already I will refrain from beating a dead horse and instead move on to the topic which you just raised of international law.

    Since when did it become acceptable under international law to torture people?

    Does the following not apply to the many persons which are being detained by Bush?



    I also think it is important to note here that many of the detainees have not been even charged with a crime. How can a person not even charged with a crime be classified as a terrorist?

    Is it acceptable under international law to hold someone for years without formally charging them with a crime?

    Is it acceptable under international law to deny a detained person legal counsel?

    I think not.

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    Senior Member Lucy in the Sky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    bwahahaha





    So tell me, when are you going over to talk to the terrorists and demand they treat their prisoners (sic) with the rights afforded under the Geneva Convention?
    We cannot control what they do. We can only control what do.

    What makes you think torturing terrorist (as well as innocent persons mistakenly thought to be terrorist) will encourage them to follow The Geneva?

    And finally, I will ask you the same question I ask of Eric- shouldn't we be imposing HIGHER standards of morality rather than ridding ourselves of them?
    Last edited by Lucy in the Sky; 12-03-2008 at 08:05 PM.

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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    I believe there is interpretation there. At least for one faction. The government fell, but I don't believe anyone there signed a treaty of submission of any sort while the mil. in Iraq was sweeping up those people. Then some were fighting to try to put that govt back in power. I'm not arguing they were bad (up to proof in the courts), but I feel that our authoritarian government was trying to brush aside the Geneva Convention. Further backing my feeling here, if they had no doubt about that, why weren't these prisoners just hanged years ago? Once again it's the attitude that "there is nothing like a good war to let us broaden our powers over anyone's else 'conventions.'
    Last edited by threlayer; 12-03-2008 at 08:57 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy in the Sky View Post

    And finally, I will ask you the same question I ask of Eric- shouldn't we be imposing HIGHER standards of morality rather than ridding ourselves of them?

    I thought you leftists were all for doing away with public morality. What gives? It suits your purpose?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

  18. #43
    Senior Member Lucy in the Sky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Because Eric likes tangible facts so much here are a few to consider for those of you who defend either the right or supposed merits of torture and or refusal to apply other provisions of The Geneva to detainees.


    105 deaths of people detained by the U.S.

    37 of the above deaths that have been OFFICALY declared homicides by the Army

    2.5 is the number of years that lawyers fought for the right to even just go LOOK at the prisoners at Gitmo

    Only 1 military commissions completed for terrorism suspects.

    Only 7% of Gitmo detainees were actually captured by U.S. and coalition forces according to an analysis of declassified government documents

    93% of detainees were turned over to the U.S. by warlords for cash payments of thousands of dollars, according to an analysis of declassified government documents

    Only 8% of detainees in U.S. custody are even accused of being al Qaeda, according to studies of U.S. government documents.




    Now after considering those facts do you STILL want to claim that The Geneva should not apply to the detainees?

  19. #44
    Senior Member Lucy in the Sky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    I thought you leftists were all for doing away with public morality. What gives? It suits your purpose?
    Lefties want to do away with morality? wtf? What a fucking retarded thing to say!

    Get back to me when you are willing to have reasonable debate, k? Thanks!

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    Senior Member Lucy in the Sky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    I feel that our authoritarian government was trying to brush aside the Geneva Convention. Further backing my feeling here, if there no doubt about that, why weren't these prisoners just hanged years ago? Once again it's the attitude that "there is nothing like a good war to let us broaden our powers over anyone's else 'conventions.'
    Hmm, a very interesting and intelligent observation.

  21. #46
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Glambman, You have failed to understand the motives discussed above. In my case I'm a moralist, not a leftist. USA has pretended thru the years to follow the high moral ground; sometimes it was convincing. In this case there is no doubt that the US, for this particular case and Abu Graib, has sunk almost to the level of the terrorists. This is pretty much a worldwide feeling.

    "Choose your enemies wisely, for they will become part of you."
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  22. #47
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy in the Sky View Post
    Lefties want to do away with morality? wtf? What a fucking retarded thing to say!

    Get back to me when you are willing to have reasonable debate, k? Thanks!

    Reasonable debate? You say all terrorists should be given GC protection. We disagree. You say they are afforded them in the GC. No they are not. You say we need to take a higher standard of morality. Isn't that setting up a national belief system akin to religion? We all have different beliefs, why promote your over mine? Then you bring up one area (GITMO) and base all your beliefs on it.

    I have long argues against allowing 'bounty hunters' to turn over suspect to the US..

    How can you say they are a military trying to reinstall their govt when the majority of the Taliban were not even Afghanis?

    What are termed as 'unconventional forces', even in a military, are not afforded GC protections. PERIOD! That includes all of our special forces.

    Also, we did take the higher road, we didn't torture them, murder them, etc., but it is a double sided coin, if they don't play by the rules, they shouldn't expect us to. Pretty simple, right.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

  23. #48
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    I believe there is interpretation there. At least for one faction. The government fell, but I don't believe anyone there signed a treaty of submission of any sort while the mil. in Iraq was sweeping up those people. Then some were fighting to try to put that govt back in power. I'm not arguing they were bad (up to proof in the courts), but I feel that our authoritarian government was trying to brush aside the Geneva Convention. Further backing my feeling here, if they had no doubt about that, why weren't these prisoners just hanged years ago? Once again it's the attitude that "there is nothing like a good war to let us broaden our powers over anyone's else 'conventions.'
    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    Glambman, You have failed to understand the motives discussed above. In my case I'm a moralist, not a leftist. USA has pretended thru the years to follow the high moral ground; sometimes it was convincing. In this case there is no doubt that the US, for this particular case and Abu Graib, has sunk almost to the level of the terrorists. This is pretty much a worldwide feeling.

    "Choose your enemies wisely, for they will become part of you."
    To second quote:
    (You happened to post as I was typing a response to LitS.)

    To first:
    You see, this is where we disagree, I don't believe in using feelings as a determining factor, that's what logic is for.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

  24. #49
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    OK, then substitute think for feel. Actually I don't feel much.

    Not true for some things I do; check out....... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKg1vMeaY5M
    Last edited by threlayer; 12-04-2008 at 12:06 AM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  25. #50
    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bush administration ignored clear warnings of mortgage meltdown...

    So the 'terrorists' trying to take back Vichy France were just shot. No one questioned if they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. That was before the 54 GC. I guess the last "Gentleman's War" was WW1.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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