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Thread: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    not when that job is the direct result of a new social program !
    Just think of it as the US is at war and you have to mobilize all resources possible to defeat the recession enemy. Invest in people who need jobs now, and let them pay off that investment over the next 30 years. If nothing is done now for those people, the payback will be suffering.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    And I can think of examples that are also Union, Universities, etc
    They are big corporations too.

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    The people who are most affected by the recession, those who will suffer the most, could be helped by those who most have the means to help them: the wealthy. The government can facilitate this by increasing taxes for the wealthy, and distributing this money through various job createing means.

    The most effective way to make a difference is a direct investment in people.
    "Horrors.... Spend money to train those uneducated, beer drinking sheep? We want them under our thumbs to hire/fire as we damn well please. Only way to control those buggers is to keep them tethered to our machines. And don't use my money thru government subsidies on them. What risks did they take (other than working for us capitalists)? Only two uses for them are to pay taxes and run our machines."

    Sarcastic? Yes, but true for many of them.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    This is simple. I make it even more so with the following few sentences:

    Yes, we should create jobs for the sake of creating jobs to help those less fortunate. This should not be optional, this should be mandatory. We all know that helping those less fortunate is more important than allowing our wealthy citizens to have 'rights' or actually 'own' their wealth. Individual rights should be forgotten if it will provide for others. Social responsibility should be christened 'social obligation, because we said so'.

    I thought this country was based on a foundation of freedom, but I see now that freedom is unneeded when we have people less fortunate than others. Where is the equality that our government tells us about when so many people have less than others. That isn't equality, it is wrong and we need to fix it NOW!

    Narcissus

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    Senior Member Lucy in the Sky's Avatar
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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Narcissus View Post
    This is simple. I make it even more so with the following few sentences:

    Yes, we should create jobs for the sake of creating jobs to help those less fortunate. This should not be optional, this should be mandatory. We all know that helping those less fortunate is more important than allowing our wealthy citizens to have 'rights' or actually 'own' their wealth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy in the Sky View Post
    Ofcourse it would be better to let them starve to death rather than provide services the country needs. I mean seriously, hello, duh!
    Key words in above quote are provide services the country needs.

    It's a win win. The country gets those services provided and the people get jobs.

    Plus no rights for the rich are being taken away.There is also zero risk of them not owning their wealth. Saying otherwise is a complete farce. They are and will remain "rich".

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    They are and will remain "rich"
    undoubtedly this will remain the case. However, instead of investing in businesses that may create innovations and new private sector jobs, they will instead invest in tax free municipal bonds or tax advantaged gov't subsidized industries or ....... businesses in other countries where the gov't will not be attempting to share in 1/2 of the profits !!!

    Arguably this is NOT a win-win ... it is a win-lose. The rich still remain rich with very respectable after-tax incomes. But the middle class, who will be forced to bear the brunt of the cost of increased public sector 'make work jobs' spending via increased taxes and/or loss of US dollar 'purchasing power', will sooner or later figure out that they were the losers.


    Invest in people who need jobs now, and let them pay off that investment over the next 30 years
    Again, in America anybody earning less than $30,000 a year or so does NOT pay income taxes. Thus unless the people you are talking about helping are highly skilled, they aren't ever going to pay back S#!T ! The vast majority of high pay rate jobs that will actually be created by this 'infrastructure stimulus' plan will be GOVERNMENT jobs ... which by definition can never pay back anything since the only source of funding is someone else's income tax revenues !!!

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    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    ^^ And this with a more progressive tax system designed by those same very rich and legislated into law by a Congress that is in their pockets? Nah. Never.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    And this with a more progressive tax system designed by those same very rich and legislated into law by a Congress that is in their pockets? Nah. Never.
    Therein lies the 'dirty little secret' of all of this. At the moment, if you live in New York and have a lump sum of $100k to invest, you can receive triple tax free interest in the 10% ballpark by buying a New York City development bond. However, if you are middle class, you can get 4% interest on a CD ... of which you'll be left with 2.5% after having to pay federal plus state plus city income taxes !

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    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    ^ We got thru the Great Depression using this. Well, this and a war. Look at it as the government protecting the 'general welfare.' I don't mean 'welfare' for the poor; I mean it as in the Constitution. Sometimes it takes a bit more than lowering the prime rate -- which is equivalent to stepping on the brake to avoid an accident....
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    I've said this before - Melanie is the smartest stripper I've ever known. Listen to her.

    Obama's spending spree will lead to dollar devaluation, cost of goods increasing, and more lost jobs.

    I hope he thinks of something with the help of the smart people - the only problem, his advisory board doesn't have a single entrepreneur - and these are exactly the people who grow the economy. In fact, that is the reason US dominated the last 100 years.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    We got thru the Great Depression using this. Well, this and a war. Look at it as the government protecting the 'general welfare.
    Arguably, FDR's public works projects didn't do s#!t for the 'general welfare', since the US depression dragged on for a decade while most of the other major countries pulled out within a couple of years. FDR's public spending programs did, however, accomplish something rather important ... they solidified support for the Democratic party by unskilled workers and the unemployed. This trend continues to this day !

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    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    The 'spending' spree will be for the BAILOUTS. That money was largely squandered away. Poker, anyone?
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    ^^^ actually, the bailout spending will come afterwards ... after all of the toxic waste collateral that the US gov't is taking onto its books, after all of the stock warrants the US gov't is receiving in exchange for below-market rate loans, etc. must be 'marked to market' and after the gov't guarantees of corporate debts have to be made good ! This could take years !

    But the gov't 'make work' jobs for infrastructure improvements require immediate gov't money (well at least gov't money by the time the projects actually get rolling - like next spring / summer)

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    I was hoping that the 'mark to market' would be eliminated to get closer to true value.

    In with the packagings of mortgage contracts sold, the bad mortgage contracts are mixed in with the good ones, or what appear now to be good ones. With this mix and without sorting it all out for creditworthiness, it is hard to determine which are the bad groups, or 'packets' as I call them here and which are the good ones. One obvious problem is that creditworthiness changes with time. I suppose some more responsible bank-held mortgages were in some mixed in with those from poorly-managed bank mortgages and then sold as a 'packet' . This does certainly spread the risk, but it doesn't allow fair evaluation of just what the sale entailed. So now no one wants to buy your mixed mortgage packet. As I understand it, these mortgage 'packets' are just en masse 'marked to the current market' without further analysis of creditworthiness scores. This is a big part of the distrust in the loan market now.
    Last edited by threlayer; 12-08-2008 at 07:58 PM. Reason: add explanation, I hope
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    <depression talks>

    someone who talks like that doesn't know much about the Depression. Read a book called Hard Times, written by people living in that time. That whole period SUCKED. Mass suicides, killings, looting, unemployment for YEARS.
    It is easy to say - we got through it and will do again, but what if for 7 years you didn't have a job, how much fun will it be getting through it?? Will you even make it before you off yourself?


    I just want to come up with a way not to repay my student loans, with this mess I don't know if there is one.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    Why? For taking risks others didn't take. For working hard to make it? ohh and the transfer has been going on for quiet some time.



    Well, the thing is that you can't trust the govt.
    the "lesser of two evils" is what it comes down to...

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    The lesser of two evils is not government. Govt can always 'regulate', but when it comes to tself, it will allow lapses that it would not permit in the private sector.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    Just think of it as the US is at war and you have to mobilize all resources possible to defeat the recession enemy. Invest in people who need jobs now, and let them pay off that investment over the next 30 years. If nothing is done now for those people, the payback will be suffering.
    Bingo

    There's just no way you can completely rely on the private sector to provide enough jobs to achieve 'full employment' (never mind anything resembling stability, adequate healthcare or retirement benefits for that matter...). Seems like they try to cut jobs as much they can...

    Like it or not, the government at all levels are going to have to take up the slack by spending (which benefits EVERYONE in both the public and private sector...).

    Even Mortimer Zuckerman, the conservative editor at US News & World Report is even advocating for this now!

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Yes, they cut jobs due to changing technology, changing business, etc., but we have still 'found' jobs for most of the laid off workers and the over 1.5 million entering the workforce each year. The economy is going to take a little while to get back on track, but with the govt assuming every poor decision made by bankers and businessmen (some of them at least), it is going to drag it out even longer. Look at the Great Depression, new studies came out in Nov, and it finally said what we knew all along, FDR was not sacred.

    How do you suppose to pay for all the new programs?

    If you think socialized/ nationalized medicine is great, you are in for a heartbreak.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    It's a pretty well established fact that government spending creates jobs. Countries with governments that follow Keynesian policies have had much better economic performance than those that follow conservative economic policies. When put into practice in countries such as Chile, conservative economic policies have been shown to be a complete failure.

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    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    ...Govt can always 'regulate', but when it comes to itself, it will allow lapses that it would not permit in the private sector.
    True enough, if govt knew about them. Govt regulation is always sloppy. But often what it tries to regulate has become even sloppier.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    It's a pretty well established fact that government spending creates jobs. Countries with governments that follow Keynesian policies have had much better economic performance than those that follow conservative economic policies. When put into practice in countries such as Chile, conservative economic policies have been shown to be a complete failure.

    I have Chilean heritage. My family was in, and had ties to, the pre-Pinochet governments going back to the late 1800's/ early 1900's. Under Pinochet, the economy soared to a level that was unprecedented in S/ C America. When he left, the people voted in all the lefties, and the economy went to shit. Even other countries in S America, that have totally left governments, have looked at his economy and have heavily borrowed from it.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Under Pinochet, Chile's economy collapsed in 1982. The unemployment rate went to 30 percent. That's higher than the US unemployment rate in the Great Depression. It was at 3percent when he took over. Why do you think the people of Chile vote for left wing governments?

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    I can't find the 30% or the 3% figures.

    What do you know about Chile pre-Pinochet? Do you know it was a closed country? What do you expect when free market anti-socialist/ nationalization reforms are implemented. Get rid of some employees instead of subsidizing industries that carry an excessive.

    Do you know from 82 to 90, he was able to further his reforms, and guess what, they had the highest rate of growth then the rest of the area.

    At its highest it was in the lower 20's. (unemployment)

    As I said before, people will vote for whomever will put cash in their pockets.

    If leftist countries were/ are so good, why does Cuba have strike busters? Why did Chavez of Venezuela ask Castro to send him tens of thousands of them? Why is Venezuela run into the ground? It used to be the Switzerland of S America. A jewel. Now it's just costume jewelry.

    You also forgot CJhile's collapse of 99. Unemployment is higher there now then here.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    Yes, they cut jobs due to changing technology, changing business, etc., but we have still 'found' jobs for most of the laid off workers and the over 1.5 million entering the workforce each year. The economy is going to take a little while to get back on track, but with the govt assuming every poor decision made by bankers and businessmen (some of them at least), it is going to drag it out even longer. Look at the Great Depression, new studies came out in Nov, and it finally said what we knew all along, FDR was not sacred.

    How do you suppose to pay for all the new programs?

    If you think socialized/ nationalized medicine is great, you are in for a heartbreak.
    Cut government spending by withdrawing from Irag and Afghanistan. Cut "corporate welfare" to big MNCs.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by NWoD View Post
    Cut government spending by withdrawing from Irag and Afghanistan. Cut "corporate welfare" to big MNCs.
    I am against corporate welfare too. We also need to cut other programs that do not go to corporations.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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