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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    What if you were to create a National, universal, fully funded daycare program? Give everyone who has young children the opportunity to work knowing their children are properly cared for. And include nutritious meals in the program too. Make it available for all parents rich or poor. Hire and train all the people required to make it a reality. Include medical checkups as well.

    Spend the money on making sure the kids are fed, healthy and looked after while the parents work, or look for work. Wouldn't you be proud to live in a country that helped kids and parents in this way? Would you be comfortable contributing your fair share to an idea such as this?

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    ^^^^That would be great for indoctrinating our children. Just look at the public schools.

    How about parents raise their children and choose any of the number of companies out there now. They get a tax break for it (if they choose to send them off).
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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Daycare is crazy expensive. Here in Raleigh the norm for a 4 year old child is from $600-$800 per month. Believe me, I looked. Many people can't afford to pay the daycare in the first place, let alone wait for a small fraction of the money to be returned via tax returns.

    See, that's the problem with conservatives. The Fuck You I Got Mine mentality has blinders to how people who DON'T have actually live. I can't afford to spend nearly another rent payment to send my son to daycare so guess what? I'm at home with him. Unless I decided to go after the gov't assistance programs which will subsidize the cost of daycare. But the conservatives cry about those too and would probably get rid of programs like those if they could. So that leaves people out out of work because they can't afford childcare and since they can't work, they have no money and they become the people conservatives always rail against as lazy. Damn, us lowly poor folks can't win for losing.

    Now I'm lucky in that my husband works and makes enough so that I can afford to stay home but many people don't have that option. Were not living high on the hog or anything, but we can pay our bills on time and so far we're doing OK. That's not to say we couldn't use the money I could make by working though if I could actually afford to work!
    Last edited by Miss_Luscious; 12-13-2008 at 08:08 AM.
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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    ^^ This daycare thing is a pretty common situation (even with the tax deduction), though I'm sure conservatives think most people needing assistance are just too happy with not working and find ways to make temporary assistance into a permanent one. The bad examples, and there are many of them, spoil the whole concept. Yes, there are a lot of technical things wrong with our school systems that could be repaired, but I'm sure a lot of conservatives believe that schools indoctrinate kids into being liberals since NEA is full of tiem.
    -----------------------

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    I have Chilean heritage. My family was in, and had ties to, the pre-Pinochet governments going back to the late 1800's/ early 1900's. Under Pinochet, the economy soared to a level that was unprecedented in S/ C America. When he left, the people voted in all the lefties, and the economy went to shit. Even other countries in S America, that have totally left governments, have looked at his economy and have heavily borrowed from it.
    Wasn't Pinociet a dictator? Is it possible that the people voted in, with a fledgling democracy, wer just under-educated in what it took to form a new government/economic system and would have failed regardless of what form they chose, or even if they were conservatives? Actually I am unfamiliar with this. People with a huge pent-up desire for personal and economic freedoms do over-react very often. Further, in general it is hard to change paths without some clumsy missteps.
    Last edited by threlayer; 12-09-2008 at 08:35 AM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Yes, Pinochet was a dictator. Technically, democracy goes to the early 30' in Chile, until Pinochet (73), but what no one tells is that it was a marxist style radical left wing democracy. They had an intervention (Pinochet), but went right back to radical marxism.

    One of the things about statistics is that they may give people false impressions. I lived in Chile when Pinochet took over, granted, I was a toddler, but I have visited ever since. There were no 'mass pictures' there like we had in the Depression. They do/ did have their issues, but then so do all other countries.

    There was an underground economy that was pretty big, we used to exchange currency on the black market, it got us many times more than govt exchangers would give.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Miss_Luscious View Post
    Daycare is crazy expensive. Here in Raleigh the norm for a 4 year old child is from $600-$800 per month. Believe me, I looked. Many people can't afford to pay the daycare in the first place, let alone wait for a small fraction of the money to be returned via tax returns.

    See, that's the problem with conservatives. The Fuck You I Got Mine mentality has blinders to how people who DON'T have actually live. I can't afford to spend nearly another rent payment to send my son to daycare so guess what? I'm at home with him. Unless I decided to go after the gov't assistance programs which will subsidize the cost of daycare for mat my husband woe. But the conservatives cry about those too and would probably get rid of programs like those if they could. So that leaves people out out of work because they can't afford childcare and since they can't work, they have no money and they become the people conservatives always rail against as lazy. Damn, us lowly poor folks can't win for losing.

    Now I'm lucky in that my husband works and makes enough so that I can afford to stay home but many people don't have that option. Were not living high on the hog or anything, but we can pay our bills on time and so far we're doing OK. That's not to say we couldn't use the money I could make by working though if I could actually afford to work!
    And the problem with liberals is that they want others to pick up the check.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    I can't find the 30% or the 3% figures.
    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-chichile.htm

    (snip)
    Chile's integration into the world market would leave it vulnerable to world market forces. The international recession that struck in 1982 hit Chile especially hard, harder than any other Latin American country. Not only did foreign capital and markets dry up, but Chile had to pay out stratospheric interest rates on its orgy of loans. Most analysts attribute the disaster both to external shocks and Chile's own deeply flawed economic policies. By 1983, Chile's economy was devastated, with unemployment soaring at one point to 34.6 percent — far worse than the U.S. Great Depression. Manufacturing production plunged 28 percent. The country's biggest financial groups were in free fall, and would have collapsed completely without a massive bail-out by the state. (9) The Chicago boys resisted this measure until the situation became so critical they could not possibly avoid it.
    (snip)


    This is what happens when conservative ideologues are given complete power.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    It fails to take into account the 2 cycles of the economy. The one to the collapse, and the one after. After the collapse, Chile had the highest growth rate of any country in the region. The one before, they had to deMarxize the economy.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    And the problem with liberals is that they want others to pick up the check.
    Plenty of Liberals are willing to ante up and kick in to help others, as are many Conservatives. An investment of the right kind, and at the right time could prevent a big cheque later for jails, healthcare, and welfare.

    It's all just part of being a strong community, and nation.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    And the problem with liberals is that they want others to pick up the check.
    The problem with conservatives is that they want to inflate the check.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    It fails to take into account the 2 cycles of the economy. The one to the collapse, and the one after. After the collapse, Chile had the highest growth rate of any country in the region. The one before, they had to deMarxize the economy.
    The collapse happened ten years after Pinochet came into power. The collapse was a result of conservative economic policies, not from "deMarxizing" the economy. After a major economic collapse and economic contraction, of course it's likely for an economy to grow rapidly because it shrank so much. Over the entire period Pinochet was in power, Chile's GNP fell 6.4 percent. His economic policies were a disaster for most of the people of Chile. That's what happens when you put conservative ideologues in control.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    ^^ Idealogues of any persuasion are often devoid of flexibility needed in these uncertain times. Pinochet I am unfamiliar with in any detail. Nor do I think this has anything to do with the OP.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    The collapse happened ten years after Pinochet came into power. The collapse was a result of conservative economic policies, not from "deMarxizing" the economy. After a major economic collapse and economic contraction, of course it's likely for an economy to grow rapidly because it shrank so much. Over the entire period Pinochet was in power, Chile's GNP fell 6.4 percent. His economic policies were a disaster for most of the people of Chile. That's what happens when you put conservative ideologues in control.

    lol, before Allende, it was an extremely left govt, when Allende took over, he nationalized everything. So for every worker required for a job, he had 1.5. If your going to compare GDP, what standards are you using? There were 3 different 'currency' levels (when Pinochet got in office, after he got in office, 83).

    By your last sentence, you'd think Chavez was a god, right? More right of center govts have been successful when compared to left of center.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Nationalized meant socialized? Yet he was a rightist? No wonder it didn't work.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    some fresh commentary ...

    (snip)"Irvine, Calif. – President-elect Barack Obama has promised to jolt the American economy out of its depressionary spiral with the mother of all fiscal stimuli. While Mr. Obama seems to have little choice in this policy matter, his desperate gambit has a high probability of failure – and may make the recession worse. Don't believe the Washington chorus: We can't spend our way to economic recovery."(snip)

    (snip)"Obama is betting heavily that massive government spending will create millions of new jobs. Still, it must be asked: Why does Obama prefer a fiscal policy geared toward increased spending rather than the tax cuts he promised ad nauseam during his campaign?

    The answer is painfully simple – and illustrates the Bush-crafted box Obama finds himself in. Beleaguered consumers would probably not spend any new tax cuts but rather pay off debts – or stuff them under the figurative mattress.

    That's why Obama is taking a cue from Franklin Roosevelt and planning to invest massively in public-works projects, such as repairing the nation's crumbling roads and bridges, expanding broadband access, and creating "green" jobs.

    Yet even this ambitious plan – a product of the Keynesian belief in government efforts to induce spending and investment – may not achieve its intended result.

    First, and foremost, there is the matter of how Obama's mother of all budget deficits will be financed; there's talk of $700 billion in new spending over the next two years. There are only two politically feasible ways: sell bonds or print money (raising taxes is off the table.)

    With bond financing, one of two things can happen – both bad. The first possibility is that China will accelerate what it has been doing for years – buy America's bonds to finance the US budget and trade deficits. The clear danger is that America will sink deeper into China's debt, thereby (further) mortgaging its future while exposing itself to political pressures over everything from trade policy to Taiwan.

    A second possibility is that China, preoccupied with its own weakening economy, will not finance America's debt but use its reserves internally.

    In this scenario, the US Treasury Department will be forced to sell US government bonds into a credit-constrained market. This will drive up interest rates and "crowd out" business investment. This is why fiscal policy often fails – any rise in less-productive government spending is more than offset by a fall in typically far more productive business investment.

    The third possibility may be most dangerous of all – printing extra money. Mechanically, this involves the US Treasury issuing new bonds to finance the deficit. Rather than these bonds going to public market, the US Federal Reserve buys them – while printing enough new money to pay the bill. The increase in the money supply would almost certainly debase the US dollar and cause an inflationary spike that would prematurely choke off recovery.

    The dangers do not end there.

    There are also the well-known "size and timing" problems. It's very difficult to calculate exactly how much fiscal stimulus is needed – too little doesn't get the job done, too much ignites inflation. It also takes a lot longer for government spending to work its stimulative magic than monetary policy. This is because new infrastructure takes significant time to plan and build. Moreover, in the worst-case scenario, the full impacts of a fiscal stimulus come long after the economy has fully recovered and wind up overheating the economy, causing inflation problems. "(snip)

    from

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    What should have been done starting 6 or so years ago is that both spending should go down (oops forgot about the war) and taxes remain the same (or should go up, oops forgot about that damned war again). As it is now, or because of it, neither of those alone will work. Yes, Bush has given us a huge problem. Not to mention the Iraq War.

    We could have handled the one in Afghanistan, as we needed to. But with an unpopular war going on, you can't tax people at the same time. After all, the Dems may wiggle their way in. Durn, I forgot again; they did.

    (well, that was a fun post)
    Last edited by threlayer; 12-17-2008 at 10:18 AM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    lol, before Allende, it was an extremely left govt, when Allende took over, he nationalized everything. So for every worker required for a job, he had 1.5. If your going to compare GDP, what standards are you using? There were 3 different 'currency' levels (when Pinochet got in office, after he got in office, 83).
    What does currency have to do with GDP? GDP is the total value of goods and services produced, regardless of what the currency is. When Pinochet left power, the total value of Chile's goods and services was 6.4% less than when he took over.

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    By your last sentence, you'd think Chavez was a god, right? More right of center govts have been successful when compared to left of center.
    What does Chavez have to do with anything I said. Because I'm opposed to the failed policies of conservative ideologues doesn't make me a supporter of Chavez. The fact is, the governments of the most prosperous countries follow policies that are strongly opposed by conservative ideologues. Most, or all of the world's most prosperous countries have a minimum wage, rights for labor to organize, government assistance for the poor and elderly, environmental regulations, and various other policies opposed by conservative ideologues. Conservative ideology has failed in Chile and everywhere else it was tried. The only thing conservative ideology does is bring poverty and suffering to people wherever it is tried.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    ^^^ currency matters a ton. For example, Zimbabwe's GDP for 2008 is going to be staggeringly high in comparison to 2007 ... although the actual amount of goods produced will be far smaller.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Currency doesn't matter when measuring GDP. Inflation is taken into account when measuring GDP. GDP is measured in constant dollars, or whatever currency you're using, not actual dollars. The calculations are based on the value of a currency at a single specific time, not the actual value each time the GDP is calculated.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    http://www.investorwords.com/2153/GDP.html

    As I said before, when Pinochet came to power, Chile was a closed country. Pinochet opened it up.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    What difference does that make?! It doesn't change the fact that Pinochet impoverished his country. There were a lot more poor people in Chile after Pinochet came to power than before. There were a lot more people who could not afford to buy enough food to sustain themselves after Pinochet came to power than before.

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    His country had the highest rate of growth than any other s American country during the same time. When he left, unemployment was around 6 or so percent. The people I know from there, including family, were better off than prePinochet.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    No it didn't. You're just making things up. Chile's GDP was lower when Pinochet left power than it was when he took over. Here is a link to a chart of Chile's GDP growth:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...GDP_growth.png

    Most people in Chile were worse off as a result of Pinochet's policies than they were before he came to power. The poverty rate more than doubled. Per capita consuption fell by 23%. For most people in Chile, Pinochet's conservative policies were a disaster. From:

    http://www.spunk.org/texts/otherpol/.../sp001280.html

    Per capita consumption fell by 23% from 1972-87. The proportion of the population below the poverty line (the minimum income required for basic food and housing) increased from 20% to 44.4% from 1970 to 1987. Per capita health care spending was more than halved from 1973 to 1985, setting off explosive growth in poverty-related diseases such as typhoid, diabetes and viral hepatitis. On the other hand, while consumption for the poorest 20% of the population of Santiago dropped by 30%, it rose by 15% for the richest 20%. [Noam Chomsky, Year 501, pp. 190-191]

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    http://www.economist.com/opinion/dis...ry_id=12773125

    AS AMERICA’S recession continues to deepen, one mercy is that there is no longer any serious debate that a fiscal stimulus is required to fill the hole left by the collapse of private demand. As American firms and households cut back and the Federal Reserve runs out of room to cut interest rates, the case for the government stepping in has become unanswerable.
    Right out of CONSERVATIVE magazine....

    Sorry Melonie/right-wingers, but you lose!

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    Default Re: yet more post-election consequences - huge increase in government jobs

    Quote Originally Posted by Pan Dah View Post
    For the benefit of the less mathematically inclined among us, could you explain how the chart at your link demonstrates your statement in boldface?

    No matter how I try I can't seem to look at it and reach the same conclusion you did.
    Sorry Pan Dah, I was mistaken. I used the wrong starting point. I started in 1970 instead of the end of 1973. The GDP grew slightly while Pinochet was in power from the end of 1973 to 1990, however when he left power, the GDP was still lower than it was 20 years earlier in 1970, which is still a very poor performance.

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