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Thread: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

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    Default Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    Anheuser-Bush was bought by InBev, a European company with brewing interests. A-B has been profitable. I don't know why it was sold other than the A-B BoD agreeing with top mgt to sell. But now the other shoe has fallen. Merry Christmas.

    InBev wants to cut 1200-1400 jobs now, most in St Louis and most by the end of this year. I presume this is to (1) help pay for the purchase and/or (2) to increase even further their income. Standard, expected big corporate decision.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...%7D&dist=msr_1

    But, hey, it's OK if a big company makes some money on the deal.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    union labor is expensive, no matter what industry it's in !

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    We have a plant around here. I know a few workers there, and they are very well paid. They do hire the top of the crop. Fortunately it's a productive, profitable plant. Further, there apparently is a huge profit in selling beer.

    The jobs being eliminated are not union jobs. But high union wages often portend high management salaries at all levels.
    Last edited by threlayer; 12-08-2008 at 08:00 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    union labor is expensive, no matter what industry it's in !

    Is it expensive in a profitable business?

    Or is this squeezing of the middle class the reason we are in the mess we are in now?

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    And there is more money to be made further down the distribution chain. Our local distributor that handles A-B along with several other brands of beer is making money hand over fist. And you know what? More power to him. I wish I had the foresight to get in to that business years ago.

    FBR
    Once again I have embraced my addiction and have put off the moral dilemma to another day.

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    Is it expensive in a profitable business?

    Or is this squeezing of the middle class the reason we are in the mess we are in now?

    Why employ 100 people when it takes 94 to do the job.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    ^^^ because union work rules require 100 !!!

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    Despite all you say, beer and its distribution are VERY profitable, even with unionization. Breweries AND distributorships both are often very profitable. Joke about unions if you are happy doing so, but at one time they were necessary because of extreme exploitation in the US because of under-regulation of conglomerates. Of course conservative capitalists hate them because by and large they have never had jobs that would benefit by unions. Basically they are ignorant of the roles unions play in workers' lives. I have friends whose fathers' fought and died for unionization because of unliveable, unsafe working conditions which I have seen firsthand, extremely low wages, and almost forced slavery. They had to endure those conditions because it was the only industry in those areas and they were kept too poor even to move. Unionization saved their lives. I also know the sins and excesses of unions and their effect upon loss of industries and jobs, living in Syracuse where all large and medium industries have essentially left. But until large corporations become socially responsible, they are very necessary in some industries. This despite what you theorists say.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    But until large corporations become socially responsible, they are very necessary in some industries.

    What social responsibility do they have? NONE! They have an obligation to their shareholders. Yes, they do have an obligation to their employees, but it doesn't mean they should have to sell the farm. Most corporations treat their employees good, some very well. One thing they have in common is that if an employee feels undervalued, they are free to leave.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    But until large corporations become socially responsible, they are very necessary in some industries. This despite what you theorists say.
    Unfortunately, in today's global economy, ANY company that is subject to union labor costs cannot effectively match production costs with foreign competitors, and often can't match production costs of domestic but non-union competitors. In some cases (like brewers), the value to weight ratio is such that shipping costs tend to suppress large scale foreign competition. But as long as competing domestic labor ( see foreign owned non-union auto plants in southern states) or offshore labor is not subject to similar union labor costs (which is virtually guaranteed to be the case - see Russian 'strikebusters' recently 'loaned' to Venezuela), paying union labor costs is virtually guaranteed to eventually bankrupt any currently profitable business.

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    But until large corporations become socially responsible, they are very necessary in some industries. This despite what you theorists say.
    Yes, there were needed in the PAST. That time is over, now they go out to protect their own interests and only their interests. How many times have you seen unions make demands at a detriminal cost to the company?
    But hell, you would probably support a bail out to A-B so they can keep the jobs around.

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    Yes, there were needed in the PAST. That time is over, now they go out to protect their own interests and only their interests. How many times have you seen unions make demands at a detriminal cost to the company?
    But hell, you would probably support a bail out to A-B so they can keep the jobs around.
    I'll cry a little more about the unions when the multi-millionaires hired by the company start giving a bit of butter up too. (And I'm a fucking CEO!)

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    I'll cry a little more about the unions when the multi-millionaires hired by the company start giving a bit of butter up too. (And I'm a fucking CEO!)
    How many CEO's bonuses have killed a company?

    Yes it's ridiculous when a CEO takes 10 million and the company doesn't turn a profit. Yet if the Union had agreed to reasonable plans, maybe they would have turned a profit.

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    Then let supply and demand determine their fate.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    How many CEO's bonuses have killed a company?

    Yes it's ridiculous when a CEO takes 10 million and the company doesn't turn a profit. Yet if the Union had agreed to reasonable plans, maybe they would have turned a profit.
    So the investment/finance companies had unions? It's not their bonuses that kill companies; it's their level of competence. (among many other issues, not ALL of which are unions)

    Quote Originally Posted by jester214 View Post
    ...How many times have you seen unions make demands at a detriminal cost to the company?
    But hell, you would probably support a bail out to A-B so they can keep the jobs around.
    About as many times as I've seen management make decisiojns detrimental to their workers.

    No, I wouldn't bail out A-B because we have many, many alternatives. And any consideration I have of bail-outs has no direct connection with unions.
    Last edited by threlayer; 12-10-2008 at 09:14 AM. Reason: consolidate comments
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    What social responsibility do they have? NONE
    And this is where you are VERY wrong. To the extent that they don't, they eventually will get themselves in big trouble, Congress will interecede and investigate/pass laws, and then we all will suffer consequences until and unless they get back on track. Which is exactly where we are NOW. The days of "Robber Barons" are pretty much over.

    They have an obligation to their shareholders. Yes, they do have an obligation to their employees, but it doesn't mean they should have to sell the farm.
    I'm sure the employees don't want that to happern either. But they ALSO a responsibilities to other entities - their communities (remember UC and Bhopal, the Love Canal?), their state/fed govts (taxes), their local governments (that provide vital services to them), etc....

    Most corporations treat their employees good, some very well.
    In particular those where employees bring into the job very difficult-to-find skills and knowledge because they are free to leave for competitors. Many of the rest do the minimum it takes to retain valued employees which would be a bit hard to replace fast.

    One thing they have in common is that if an employee feels undervalued, they are free to leave.
    They do in developed countries anymore, but often it did not use to be that way. In developing countries it is often just the way it was here in the 1800s and 1900s--tolerable for some, intolerable for others. But in many countries where worker organization is illegal, it is considerably worse.
    Last edited by threlayer; 12-09-2008 at 08:16 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Unfortunately, in today's global economy, ANY company that is subject to union labor costs cannot effectively match production costs with foreign competitors, and often can't match production costs of domestic but non-union competitors.
    This is true, but unions were largely responsible for the US standard of living increases until the last two-three decades or so when world-trade became a big issue. Many other developing countries which have become trading partners now have the same problems (pollution, safety, exploitation, child labor) the US did until some degrees of social responsibility was thrust upon us. In the meantime we must find ways of protecting ourselves, and this doesnt necessarily rest upon killing all the unions. Stupid legislation is a much bigger problem than the unions. Start there.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    And this is where you are VERY wrong. To the extent that they don't, they eventually will get themselves in big trouble, Congress will interecede and investigate/pass laws, and then we all will suffer consequences until and unless they get back on track. Which is exactly where we are NOW. The days of "Robber Barons" are pretty much over.

    We are talking corporate obligations. Laws are the cost of doing business. It has nothing to do with social responsibility.

    I'm sure the employees don't want that to happern either. But they ALSO a responsibilities to other entities - their communities (remember UC and Bhopal, the Love Canal?), their state/fed govts (taxes), their local governments (that provide vital services to them), etc....

    Again, the cost of doing business.

    They do in developed countries anymore, but often it did not use to be that way. In developing countries it is often just the way it was here in the 1800s and 1900s--tolerable for some, intolerable for others. But in many countries where worker organization is illegal, it is considerably worse.

    That doesn't mean the union needs to be there. It is the government that has let the people down, not necessarily the corporations. Nikes competitors treat their employees better, but when have you seen them on tv? You haven't, because it goes against what they want to mold your mind to believe.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    This is true, but unions were largely responsible for the US standard of living increases until the last two-three decades or so when world-trade became a big issue. Many other developing countries which have become trading partners now have the same problems (pollution, safety, exploitation, child labor) the US did until some degrees of social responsibility was thrust upon us. In the meantime we must find ways of protecting ourselves, and this doesnt necessarily rest upon killing all the unions. Stupid legislation is a much bigger problem than the unions. Start there.
    Really was it stupid legislation that drove Teachers to strike for a week back when I was younger in PA? No, it was unions, and let me promise you they weren't fighting slum like conditions or unfair practices. They did it because they wanted something like 6% pay increase instead of 3%.

    But hey, they showed those uppity public school adminstrating bastards and let it be damned if 3rd graders got left at home that week cause mommy had to go work! Those teachers deserved that extra 3%!

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    Many other developing countries which have become trading partners now have the same problems (pollution, safety, exploitation, child labor) the US did until some degrees of social responsibility was thrust upon us. In the meantime we must find ways of protecting ourselves, and this doesnt necessarily rest upon killing all the unions. Stupid legislation is a much bigger problem than the unions. Start there
    Indeed there are some in Washington who already have ideas as to how to best 'protect ourselves' i.e. a modern day Smoot Hawley tariff. A tariff rate of 27% for Chinese imports has been proposed to compensate for America's legally imposed regulatory costs on businesses (i.e. environmental, worker safety, product liability, unemployment and workers comp insurance etc.) which Chinese companies are not required to pay.

    Unfortunately, such a tariff would really accomplish only two things. It would invite retaliation against US export products (thus hurting companies like Caterpillar, General Electric etc.). It would also raise the price of all low end Chinese products (beginning with food) by 27%. In other words, America depends on the availability of offshore products which do not price in the American gov't mandated costs of doing business and/or being socially responsible to artificially increase its minimum standard of living !!! Once those American gov't mandated costs must be shared by all Americans, and not just among American businesses, the American standard of living is likely to decline in a big hurry.

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ...Unfortunately, such a tariff would really accomplish only two things. It would invite retaliation against US export products (thus hurting companies like Caterpillar, General Electric etc.). It would also raise the price of all low end Chinese products (beginning with food) by 27%. In other words, America depends on the availability of offshore products which do not price in the American gov't mandated costs of doing business and/or being socially responsible to artificially increase its minimum standard of living !!! Once those American gov't mandated costs must be shared by all Americans, and not just among American businesses, the American standard of living is likely to decline in a big hurry.
    Agreed about US exports to China. They sure get them cheap.

    Yes. Businesses like WalMart, Dollar General, Circuit City, etc, that depend on products manufactured in China will see wholesale prices increase directly by any import tariff. Yes, it will lower the volume sold to US consumers and raise prices. US has been living in a Chinese discount bubble for a long time, and most damage has already been done. What would have helped greatly is a change years ago before they got so entrenched and destroyed many industries. Now it will just be an annoyance to our addiction. Our govt has just got to become more responsive to business needs and foreign dumping before 90% of the damage is done.

    The American "standard of living" is killing our manufacturiing which is killing our jobs which is killing our standard of living. The only winners are the ownerships of importers and the Chinese exporters.

    Just yesterday Libby, which bought out Syracuse China a decade ago, a long time business mostly manufacturing restaurant dishes etc, announced that they are moving all production to China, due to the recession. And they of course will close down Syracuse China (yet 300 more workers out of jobs), but the offshore products will retain the name 'Syracuse China.' (What a slap in the face.) Well, it's another product WalMart can sell. Just two years ago Syroco (the old Syracuse Ornamental, it used to produce high quality wall decorations) lost its contract to WalMart Chinese imports for manufacturing plastic outdoor furniture, selling for the same price. So the local WalMarts transport a product, from half way around the world to replace a similar product produced in this county. That cost 150 non-union jobs. Ridiculous on the face of it. So so it continues.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    ^^^ it's only ridiculous if the wholesale price of the US made products must be set SO far above the wholesale price of similar Chinese made products that the extra shipping costs are inconsequential. Of course, when one considers that at a bare minimum a US manufacturer must pay $7 an hour instead of $2 an hour in China, that a US manufacturer must pay 8.3% SSI tax on behalf of employees versus 0 in China, that a US manufacturer must pay unemployment insurance and workmen's comp premiums on behalf of employees versus 0 in China, that a US manufacturer must limit employee productivity due to worker safety rules versus no such limits in China, that a US manufacturer must pay 10 cents+ per kWh for natgas fired electricity versus 3 cents- per kWh for coal fired electricity in China etc., it's a wonder that ANY US manufacturing businesses remain in business !!!

    Of course the major reason that US manufacturing businesses have 'hung on' as well as they have is the fact that they have been cashing in on manufacturing facilities, product reputations, and other business assets that were 'built up' and/or paid for in previous decades - in addition to the fact that it takes several years worth of planning and a lot of financing to establish offshore production facilities. But rest assured that the example you cite Libby Glass has had offshoring plans in the works for a very long time. It is only the greatly reduced product demand resulting from today's economic distress that allows them to 'pull the plug' early on older and very expensive US manufacturing operations.

    The problem now evolves into what happens to the ex-Libby production workers when their unemployment checks run out. Without a skilled trade credential or a college degree in a marketable specialty, odds are they are facing two choices A. they can work for near minimum wage at some local service job that cannot be outsourced and vastly decrease their standard of living. B. they can sign up for a cornucopia of social welfare programs, among them medicaid, subsidized utilities, subsidized rent, welfare, food stamps etc. and actually achieve a standard of living that is significantly higher than that which a near minimum wage job would provide.
    Last edited by Melonie; 12-10-2008 at 08:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    ^^ Agreed.

    Syracuse China is a old facory, probably completely written off. So there goes the depreciation deduction. I believe it is non-union. A most likely high-cost problem is energy costs which are high for kiln-firing businesses. And we've gone over that govt-based problem before.

    Usually what happens here is some will just retire, some will undergo training and still end up at Walmart or BurgerKing, some will start a small business using something they've learned alone or at work, and some will draw UI until the end and then go to Walmart or BurgerKing. With that lowering and their retirement gone to hell, they will become just another bunch of data to update the poverty statistics in the county.

    Very soon our biggest industries here will be unemployment, welfare, disability, and adhoc manufacturing of cardboard 'houses'.
    Last edited by threlayer; 12-10-2008 at 09:23 AM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    ^^^ but what ? This 'moral hazard' situation of unskilled workers being provided with a higher standard of living by doing nothing than by working is a trap of our own making. This same trap increases the costs and decreases the standard of living for skilled workers, and for US businesses, who ultimately are taxed to pay for it. This in turn leads to the closing of ever more US businesses because the production cost differential between themselves and their foreign competitors grows wider and wider.

    And if you stop and think about it, the 'generosity' of our gov't in terms of social welfare benefits is actually a 'government subsidy' for Budweiser, since it provides a whole bunch of people with both the money and the time to consume Buds to their heart's content !!!

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    Default Re: Job Cuts at Budweiser, a Nice Christmas Present

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    This 'moral hazard' situation of unskilled workers being provided with a higher standard of living by doing nothing than by working is a trap of our own making. This same trap increases the costs and decreases the standard of living for skilled workers, and for US businesses, who ultimately are taxed to pay for it. This in turn leads to the closing of ever more US businesses because the production cost differential between themselves and their foreign competitors grows wider and wider.
    Businesses 'amplify' their laborers' skills by training on specialized machinery and specialized processes. In return for this specialization, they are paid; but this does not prepare them for any other kind of work. All companies do this because it is in their own interests. It is in the worker's interests to broaden that training outside of that industry for potential income diversity's sake (loss of job). But any outside the worker does not in the company's interests is discouraged, be it a professional job, a craftsman job, or a semi-skilled worker or laborer job. The company wants to control that workers' employment and make it harder for them to leave until the company wants that to happen. This is the way it is when you have a 'job.' And that won't change.

    ...the 'generosity' of our gov't in terms of social welfare benefits is actually a 'government subsidy' for Budweiser, since it provides a whole bunch of people with both the money and the time to consume Buds to their heart's content !!!
    I don't believe many Budweiser worker get many social welfare benefits. Can't speak about their drinking habits, but most of them have nice lives with big boys' toys, camps, big 401k's etc. They do willingly work overtime when it's available at huge pay increments. This is certainly the best place in town to work with that level of skills, and it is a very profitable business. 'Splain that to buddies in the bars. They just laugh and tell how they almost got hired there.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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