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Thread: 'Jumping Ship' - split thread re Expatriation

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    Default 'Jumping Ship' - split thread re Expatriation

    are u leaving the country melonie????????

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    Default Re: what last year's 'correct' financial analysts have to say about 2009 ...

    Yup ... for better or for worse, if all goes according to plan I will become an ex-patriate in Central America by the end of next week. Like some much 'richer' Americans who fear for the future value of their US dollars and also fear that the Obama administration will attempt to quickly 'lock the door' on the possibility of shielding their US assets from major tax increases via closing currently existing offshore 'loopholes' (see Members Area thread on this topic), I've decided to step through that 'door' while it is still 'unlocked'.

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    Default Re: what last year's 'correct' financial analysts have to say about 2009 ...

    Are you or do you plan to blog about your ex-pat experience? Many people may find your blog interesting. Myself included.


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    Default Re: what last year's 'correct' financial analysts have to say about 2009 ...

    I think you are going to miss a great American renaissance Mel, but I hope you find happiness wherever you go.

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    Default Re: what last year's 'correct' financial analysts have to say about 2009 ...

    ...Mel,you are smart and beautiful and in this case,I wish I was going along with you as I truly believe you are correct about what's to come!
    Wishing you a safe and smooth relocation and happy days in the New Year!

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    Default Re: what last year's 'correct' financial analysts have to say about 2009 ...

    ^^^ thanks for the bon voyage !

    Yes I'll actually try to stay reasonably active on Stripper Web after I get relocated. At the moment, the only way I have available to get online from the tropics is a dial-up AOL connection ... but individual satellite service IS available, as well as WiFi access in a (very nice) ex-pat neighborhood 'gathering place'.

    With the snow flying and the temperature headed towards zero degrees out, it's rather inspiring to keep in mind where I'll be a week from now ...



    of course, with the former owners' stuff removed I've got a lot of work cut out for me re getting things set up ... but then again I won't have to go far to get cooled off ...





    I did start a SW blog, which I intended to pick up once I get settled. However, please understand that once I actually 'step out the door' next week that things are going to be EXTREMELY busy for the several weeks immediately following the move. So please don't worry if I'm incommunicado for days at a time.

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    Default Re: what last year's 'correct' financial analysts have to say about 2009 ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Yup ... for better or for worse, if all goes according to plan I will become an ex-patriate in Central America by the end of next week.
    Ciao baby.

    XOXO
    Z

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    Default Re: what last year's 'correct' financial analysts have to say about 2009 ...

    XOXO as well !

    not wanting to go into too many details, but ...

    having my now 'offshore' income exempt from US federal, state and local income tax is probably going to be worth an additional $35k-$40k per year ... based on the actual amount of taxes I have had to pay over the past couple years. This is only likely to increase if President Obama, Gov. Paterson and/or Mayor Bloomberg bump up tax rates even higher.

    Under the IRS definition of 330 days actual non-residence in the US to qualify for 'non-resident' status, that still leaves 4 weeks during which I can return to the states to visit. During those four weeks, I can easily rent out my property to vacationers ... easily racking up another $4k in rental income to offset the cost of the return visits.

    I don't really need a car once I relocate, since everything from provincial gov't offices to shops to Mayan Ruins to nature preserves are within easy hiking / biking distance ... and with the bay being a mere stumble downhill from my deck. This is probably going to 'save' me at least another $5k per year in auto / gasoline related expenses. Even so, I'll probably wind up buying a diesel 4 cylinder mini-pickup eventually - if and when my new business requires a vehicle (and the new business profits can pay for it). I may wind up going for the diesel 4 cylinder mini-pickup anyhow since the only MAJOR facility for big time shopping / medical treatment / big city night life etc. is about 20 miles away (as well as across the Mexican border).

    I also considered shipping down my Subaru WRX from New York, but I have been advised that such sporty vehicles tend to attract way too much 'unwelcome' attention, thus I would be far better off from a 'safety' standpoint driving a muddy pickup truck with a business logo on the doors. Plus I have discovered that Subaru is more or less an 'off brand', meaning that all Subaru repair parts must be shipped in either from Guatemala or from Mexico. Thus it's not worth the risk (not to mention the shipping costs)

    Tomorrow I'll be shipping down the most important 'possessions' from New York .. US dollars ... which 'magically' disappear from a Scotia Bank account in New York, and 'magically' reappear in a Scotia Bank account in the tropics ! I have already established a new stock trading account tied to this new bank account, and early next week when market volumes pick up after the holidays I will sell off a few 'winning' investments ... which for the first time will be free of US / NY capital gains / income taxes !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-01-2009 at 09:07 PM.

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    Default Re: what last year's 'correct' financial analysts have to say about 2009 ...

    Best of luck!!! I'm envious.
    Oh, and the subaru isn't going to cause "unwelcome attention" since you're not taking it. But the huge hooters. Hmmm.
    Maybe you can open a strip club and get the sw's to work it?

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    Default Re: what last year's 'correct' financial analysts have to say about 2009 ...

    ^^^ you'd be suprised how 'frumpy' I can look when I want to. As to opening a strip club, no way. From the little bit I was able to determine about the local club culture, 'extras' are very high and earnings are very low !

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    Default Re: what last year's 'correct' financial analysts have to say about 2009 ...

    Good for you Mel. I am sure that moving abroad will be a fabulous experience for you. For me, it is a near constant adventure - and I wish you the same luck.

    Are you going to where I imagine that you'll be going? If so, I wish you year after year of wonderful capital gains tax FREE investing and trading. Good stuff.

    Lots of people talk about moving abroad to start a new and 'better' life, but very few actually have the 'balls' (sorry) to do it. I admire you immensley for this.

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    Default Re: what last year's 'correct' financial analysts have to say about 2009 ...

    Wow, you're really doing it, Melonie. Best of luck
    Once again, the conservative, sandwich-heavy portfolio pays off for the hungry investor
    - Dr John Zoidberg

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    Default Re: what last year's 'correct' financial analysts have to say about 2009 ...

    ^^^ well I am leaving the door open to return to the Adirondacks at any time ... since there's no way that I would ever sell the house my grandfather built there. Besides, with the state of the upstate NY real estate market and economy in general, there's no way I could get enough money from a sale to approach the property's 'true value' (to me at least). Actually, I am secretly hoping that America will return to common sense over the course of the next few years so that I can move back with a clear conscience and optimism ! In the meantime, I'm going to let some of my younger 'extended family' members live in my house rent free in exchange for covering property taxes, utility bills and minor repairs ... which in turn might help them to have some hope of establishing a viable financial future despite the fact that they are still living in New York !

    Yes Stuart I am heading to EXACTLY the location we previously speculated about. I have been avoiding any public mention of a specific location as a personal 'safety' measure.

    As to the size of my 'balls', that's a result of my father the construction contractor treating my twin sister as the 'princess' while treating me like the 'son' he never had ! But trust me, compared to some of the world's 'strip clubs' that I have worked in over the years, this is a walk in the park (almost literally). And when you add in the fact that I am effectively being 'paid' $35k-$40k per year to move there (in the form of legal tax avoidance) and enjoy myself, as well as realizing about a 25%-30% lower cost of living in general, I figure I can deal with a few inconveniences. Ultimately, the only major 'sacrifice' required boils down to far less access to 'urban' amenities ... which were never all that big of a consideration in my own life anyhow. But as you know, if and when such 'urban' amenities are really needed, they are only 20 miles away (albeit across the Mexican border ... including a world class Hospital, a gambling casino, a WalMart etc. ).

    As to my ultimate reason for making this decision, NY's new Gov. Paterson just made that decision for me. I really have a mental problem in continuing to contribute huge amounts of my income towards increasing state medicaid, subsidized housing, subsidized utility payments etc. for many people who choose not to work full time, while at the same time I am expected to pay an extra 15 cents for every can of pepsi, an extra 56 cents for every gallon of gasoline, an extra 9% sales tax on every item of clothing ON TOP OF already paying New York about 8% of my gross income as income tax. In other words, with these latest proposed tax and fee increases, the point will be reached where MORE THAN 50% of my gross income would now wind up going to the government via one tax / fee or another !!!

    As you may also remember from earlier discussions, I did consider pursuing the 'rich person's' method of avoiding taxes while remaining in New York ... i.e. there are now tax free NY muni bonds available (public housing authority) that pay upwards of 8% triple tax free interest. But I just couldn't reconcile myself with the idea of becoming 'part of the problem'. Of course I am in the 'minority' in that regard ... since there are many 'rich' New Yorkers who are perfectly happy with the idea of shifting their investments away from 'productive' but fully taxable areas and instead enabling gov't to continue its 'non-productive' social program spending via the purchase of muni bonds (which also allows they themselves to escape the brunt of NY's high income tax rates). The fact that they apparently don't care about, but which would bother me immensely, is that their very high tax free muni bond interest rate is actually being paid for via draconian taxes collected from working class / middle class New York neighbors.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-02-2009 at 07:13 PM.

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    Default Re: what last year's 'correct' financial analysts have to say about 2009 ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Tomorrow I'll be shipping down the most important 'possessions' from New York .. US dollars ... which 'magically' disappear from a Scotia Bank account in New York, and 'magically' reappear in a Scotia Bank account in the tropics
    Mel, just a quick tip, any overseas bank that has a branch in the US tracks and reports back the activity of US acount holders. If you want to really go dark it's better to find a local bank with branches only within the country. Even though Scotia's from Canada they are still subject to reporting as they have branches in the US.
    Last edited by arctic717; 01-03-2009 at 06:07 AM. Reason: grammar correction

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    Default Re: what last year's 'correct' financial analysts have to say about 2009 ...

    ^^^ I am aware of that. However, the amount of cash being transferred through Scotia is a relatively small part of the overall package. And I wanted to avoid any obvious attempt to immediately 'fly below the radar' just in case my exit attracts the attention of the NY income tax authority. I view this account as my 'operating funds' account, and really don't care who is aware of it. Besides, I needed to maintain some means of rapidly transferring money back to NY if and when some serious need might develop in regard to my house (or my 'extended family' still living in my house) without drawing undue attention in the future. Thus I opted not to take the risk of having ALL of my money disappear into a 'black hole' now, and then have money reappear out of that 'black hole' in the future.

    On the other hand, I also opened an IBC account ... which will be receiving the proceeds of my investment sales next week. My stock shares will be transferred to an IBC brokerage account before any shares are sold ... thus in terms of official US financial reporting the only thing that will be 'visible' from a reporting standpoint will be that transfer. The subsequent securities sale and transfer of funds will thus be 'off the radar', as will also be the case for future cash and securities transactions within the IBC. And the same IBC can be used to cover my new 'local' business pursuits ... if and when I get around to it. The only real drawback to the IBC is that 'face to face' transactions requires a 100 mile trip to the capital city (although stock trades and other cash transactions can be done online). But this actually will help to maintain a firm separation of my 'operating' personal finances versus my investment / business finances.

    And before anybody asks about what the hell is an IBC account ...



    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-03-2009 at 07:06 AM.

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    Default Re: 'Jumping Ship' - split thread re Expatriation

    For those who are wondering, I will also elaborate a little bit about the significance of an IBC.

    Unlike most countries, the USA imposes an income tax on the WORLDWIDE incomes of US citizens. Thus simply moving away from the USA does not automatically free a US citizen from IRS obligations. The IRS however does allow US citizens to exclude the first $87,000 per year of 'foreign' income from taxation. But the IRS considers any income that is derived from US sources to still be 'domestic' income subject to normal taxation, even if the recipient of that income is living outside of the USA. This is particularly the case for US stocks and bonds. See for details.

    Where investment income is concerned, if that investment income stems from US sources i.e. stocks listed on US stock exchanges or bonds from US companies or gov't agencies, then arguably an individual US citizen receiving such investment income must pay normal tax rates on this income regardless of where in the world they actually live, and regardless of the amount of income from other sources they may or may not have. In order for income to 'qualify' for the foreign income exclusion, it must come from a foreign source and must also come in the form of a 'business income'. The US citizen must also meet fairly strict foreign residence tests i.e. living outside of the USA for at least 330 days of the year.

    However, if such a US citizen were to transfer ownership of US stocks and bonds to an IBC, then the IBC and not the individual US citizen becomes the recipient of subsequent income. And as a 100% foreign entity, the income of that IBC is not subject to US taxation. If and when that IBC 'pays a salary' to a US citizen living in a foreign country, that 'salary payment' is then considered to be 'income from a foreign source' thus qualifying for the $87,000 per year foreign income exclusion from US personal income tax. If and when the total earnings from IBC investments and/or other business activities exceed $87,000 per year, in many foreign countries there is no corporate tax or law preventing the 'excess earnings' from remaining with the IBC, while a lesser amount is actually paid out in the form of a 'salary'.

    I would also add that IRS rules require that US citizens (regardless of country of residence) report the existance of all foreign bank accounts with a balance in excess of $10k. However, ownership of 'stock' in a foreign IBC ( including 100% of the stock) is not the same as cash in a bank account. And while dividend payments from a foreign IBC would have to be reported as investment income and thus subjected to US income tax at 'normal' tax rates, 'salary' payments from the IBC can be reported as foreign income thus subject to the $87k IRS exclusion as long as the recipient meets the foreign residence test.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-03-2009 at 08:13 AM.

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    Default Re: 'Jumping Ship' - split thread re Expatriation

    Do you have a job or are you starting a business in your new location? Or is this full retirement for you with volunteer pursuits and/or philanthropic adventures?

    I hope everything goes well for you. Good luck on the move and I look forward to reading about your overseas adventures.


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    Default Re: 'Jumping Ship' - split thread re Expatriation

    From a technical standpoint I do have a 'job' ... working for the IBC managing it's 'investment portfolio'... for which I am paid a 'salary'.

    As to actual new business pursuits, while I have yet to pull this part of the 'equation' together, I am positioning myself (actually the IBC) to become an investor in a 'local' sequestered forest carbon project. Such investments receive income in two major ways. The first is the sale of 'carbon credits' ... with a going price of around $18 a ton to the EU. The second is the sale of furniture wood once the forest matures. I am holding off on making a commitment to this sort of investment until some firmer direction on the implementation of new US 'carbon cap and trade' laws becomes apparent after Obama takes office. The reason of course is that if and when the US joins the EU on the 'demand side' of carbon credit trading, the market price of those carbon credits should increase significantly. At a market price of $18 a ton, and with reduced worldwide demand for furniture wood due to the housing slump, IMHO this investment is too 'pricey' to jump into at the moment. But if and when it becomes clear that the US is going to implement 'carbon cap and trade' laws, I can jump into such an investment far quicker than international investors can - which should provide for an immediate 'pop' in the value of my investment.

    see for more info - particularly table 1. The big unanswered questions are whether the current commitments by California and some other US states will be implemented on a nationwide basis, and whether or not the US gov't will legislate de-facto tariffs / quotas in regard to US based carbon credits versus international carbon credits (as they have already done re international ethanol tariffs / quotas). If international carbon credits are allowed ... which almost certainly be the case due to the limited capacity available in the USA versus the amount of total carbon credits needed ... then every time you or any other US residential, commercial or industrial customer pays your (now higher) electricity bill, some fraction of your (additional) utility bill money will flow right to my pocket !!!


    To answer your real question, no I do not have any plans to do any actual 'work' ... although there there is ample opportunity to do so at a nearby Casino complex if and when the need ever arises. What I do plan on doing in the short term is spending a whole lot of time at the beach, in nearby Mayan Ruins and wildlife sanctuaries, exploring the countryside etc. Also, I may not be cooking again for awhile, since the going price for a top quality local restaurant dinner is about US$5 !!!

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-03-2009 at 08:59 AM.

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    Senior Member Lucy in the Sky's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Jumping Ship' - split thread re Expatriation

    While it's no secret I have certain negative opinions on why you are doing this (and doubts that you are even being honest about leaving) BUT putting all that aside, I still wish you health and happiness in your new home. World travel is always interesting and exciting so should you be telling the truth I hope this experience is both for you. Good luck!

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    Default Re: 'Jumping Ship' - split thread re Expatriation

    Good for you Mel. I was reading HedgeHogging by Barton Biggs recently and he has a whole section in the book about forestry and why he thinks that owning and working land to farm the wood is a very secure long-term investment - and has been for several centuries. Its an interesting concept which is only assisted by carbon trading etc.

    I have a couple of friends here that are lobbyists in the carbon capture and carbon trading worlds and they are certainly interesting areas. Areas with potentially billions sloshing around in!!

    Good luck!

    Good luck.

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    Default Re: 'Jumping Ship' - split thread re Expatriation

    ^^^ re Lucy ... whatever ! Please forgive me if I don't send you a post card to 'prove' myself to you (and reveal my specific new location in the process). I will however maintain fond memories that, if the carbon credit situation works out, I'll actually be collecting a few cents from your electric bill payments on a monthly basis !

    ^^^ re Stuart ... I have read Biggs and many others on the subject of forestry. I tend to agree that, in a free market environment, this can be a very good long term investment. However, in a non-free market environment, i.e. one where the forest land is subject to onerous property taxes and where the earnings are subject to draconian income taxes, the value of the investment is questionable in relation to the risk. Arguably, this is exactly the case for most US based forestry projects. But from my 'new' perspective, the effect of such US property and income taxes will only serve to increase the 'world market' price of carbon credits thus increase my earnings !!!

    On the subject of carbon credits, yeah billions of dollars are already 'sloshing around' from the EU alone ... something that will increase proportionally once the US, Australia etc. also join the 'carbon credits trading' game. And since the number of sequestered carbon projects is inherently limited, it only makes sense to have a stake in the 'lowest cost' producer. With equatorial sunshine encouraging 'local' trees to grow very quickly, with comparatively low 'local' labor costs, and with effectively zero 'local' taxes etc. , my 'local' forestry project could kick the s#!t out of domestic US / EU competitors in the same way that offshore manufacturers can kick the s#!t out of domestic US / EU competitors. The difference of course is that, unlike the stigma of being an investor in a Chinese / Mexican manufacturing industry (whose profits stem from the lower costs of dirty power and dirty manufacturing operations), as an offshore 'green project' investor I'm going to get oohs and ahs from the limousine liberals (at the same time I profit from their utility bill payments, as well as those of their US commercial and industrial business investments !)

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-03-2009 at 09:23 AM.

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    Default Re: 'Jumping Ship' - split thread re Expatriation

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucy in the Sky View Post
    I have certain negative opinions on why you are doing this (and doubts that you are even being honest about leaving)
    Obviously, I am the wrong person to discuss expatriation with - I am very heavily biased - but I don't understand why you think she would be lying. There have been numerous threads on this board over the last 2 or 3 years about this very topic and unless war or civil unrest forces your hand, expatriation isn't generally something that happens in a fortnight.

    It took me about 4 years to pluck up the courage the first time. These days, if I found a cool job, I'd be gone in whatever my notice period is plus 2 weeks. Moving abroad is no longer a biggie.

    I for one, am 100% sure that Mel is moving. She and I - and others - have discussed this often enough for it to be a logical progression.

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    Default Re: 'Jumping Ship' - split thread re Expatriation

    Quote Originally Posted by StuartL View Post
    I don't understand why you think she would be lying.
    I have my doubts to the veracity of all this because of numerous things I have read within the endless numbers of political postings by her in the Members area of this website.

    Regardless of all that I wanted to send her off with well wishes because (while to be honest, I personally will be pleased to see less of her around here) I want the good things for all people. I see her feelings towards me are of the opposite variety but such is life sometimes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ re Lucy ... whatever ! Please forgive me if I don't send you a post card to 'prove' myself to you (and reveal my specific new location in the process). I will however maintain fond memories that, if the carbon credit situation works out, I'll actually be collecting a few cents from your electric bill payments on a monthly basis !
    Whoa. After that response to my parting wishes of health, happiness and good luck for your new adventure I have half a mind to now offer up the opposite thoughts for the future but I will refrain from snapping back at you because I was being SINCERE when I originally wished you well.

    And don't want to reveal your specific location to me? wtf??? Like I care, lolololololol ! I swear you get more wacky everyday. Oh well, here is a toast to your trip anyway
    Last edited by Lucy in the Sky; 01-03-2009 at 09:52 AM.

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    Default Re: 'Jumping Ship' - split thread re Expatriation

    ^^^ indeed the decision to go the expatriate route did not happen overnight. Also, to be honest, I am 'hedging my bet' in comparison to most expats since I am NOT going to be selling my house in New York or closing my New York bank account with Scotia. I am also NOT going to be attempting to totally drop 'off the radar'. I will still (arguably) be paying all of the US taxes that I am legally required to pay. Thus if things go to 'hell in a handbasket' in my new (tax) home, I will still be in a position to move back to the USA without risking a 'reception committee' waiting for me at the first US airport !

    As to reasons for coming to this decision, the primary one was the increasing inability to 'build a secure future'. When you are 20 years old, earning good money, don't have children or family members depending on you etc. the future looks bright no matter what sort of tax is being collected from you, and no matter at what rate you are actually able to accumulate savings or investments. However, when 20 turns into 40, when your earnings potential declines, and when you have children or family members to consider, the ability to accumulate a 'nest egg' and eventually pass along an inheritance become increasingly important.

    IMHO recent economic policy direction in the USA, and in New York in particular, increasingly lead me to believe that if someone is not already 'rich' that they will no longer be allowed to become 'rich' ... no matter how hard they work at it. The harder they work, the higher the percentage of the fruits of their labors will be confiscated and redirected. Similarly, even for those that have already managed to put aside some money, the 'purchasing power' of that money is just as likely to be eroded via debasement of the currency (i.e. eventually having to pay for all of these trillions in bailouts and gov't guarantees against more or less worthless investments). If you want to point to one particular event as 'the straw that broke the camel's back', it was the recent announcement of a wide array of new New York taxes that, if implemented (which is extremely likely), will result in more than 50 cents of every dollar I earn having to be paid to the government in the form of one type of tax / fee or another !!! Are you still a 'free' person, when more than 1/2 of the fruits of your labors are no longer your own ?


    And don't want to reveal your specific location to me? wtf??? Like I care, lolololololol ! I swear you get more wacky everyday. Oh well here is a toast to your trip anyway
    I consider not revealing my specific new location to be a matter of personal safety, the reason for which I decline to elaborate. At any rate, your sincere good wishes are truly appreciated (if they are in fact sincere).

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 01-03-2009 at 10:06 AM.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Lucy in the Sky's Avatar
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    Default Re: 'Jumping Ship' - split thread re Expatriation

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post


    I consider not revealing my specific new location to be a matter of personal safety, the reason for which I decline to elaborate. At any rate, your sincere good wishes are truly appreciated (if they are in fact sincere).
    Safe from whom? Me? LoL! That is seriously weird but I'll let it go because yes, my good wishes are in fact sincere. As far as I am concerned, we don't have to get along for me to hope you the best for the future

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