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Thread: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

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    God/dess Paris's Avatar
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    Default Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    I'm really working at this class. I did fine in algebra, had a few challenges, but mostly the classes made perfect sense. Now I feel like I am banging my head against the wall. I can figure out the word problems just fine, I know the answers to the questions but writing it in the algebraic form is killing me.

    I got 70% on both of my quizzes and have an exam on Wednesday. The really awful thing is that I'm doing better than most of my classmates. Just about everyone in the class got 0's on their quizzes, so I can't even turn to my classmates for study help. I met with a tutor today and he said that 2/3 of the students in this class will fail their first time through.

    I'm kind of freaking out, because I'm in the honors program and am on track to get scholarships because of it. If I can't pass this class, I'm in some trouble with my financial aid and my GPA will take a nose dive.

    I was wondering if anyone has any ideas for getting a different perspective on this kind of math? Is there such a thing as an alternative method to learning calculus?


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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    Can't help you with Math. Since I have failed college algebra I - twice.

    I did want to say that the free program open office (acts like MS Office) comes with calc. So you can type and solve algebraic equations using this.

    Should be able to write them up and e mail them to others in your class that are "getting it".

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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    OpenOffice.org Calc Features
    OpenOffice.org Calc is a spreadsheet application that you can use to calculate, analyze, and manage your data. You can also import and modify Microsoft Excel spreadsheets.

    Calculations
    OpenOffice.org Calc provides you with functions, including statistical and banking functions, that you can use to create formulas to perform complex calculations on your data.

    You can also use the Function Wizard to help you create your formulas.

    What-If Calculations
    An interesting feature is to be able to immediately view the results of changes made to one factor of calculations that are composed of several factors. For instance, you can see how changing the time period in a loan calculation affects the interest rates or repayment amounts. Furthermore, you can manage larger tables by using different predefined scenarios.

    Database Functions
    Use spreadsheets to arrange, store, and filter your data.

    OpenOffice.org Calc lets you drag-and-drop tables from databases, or lets you use a spreadsheet as a data source for creating form letters in OpenOffice.org Writer.

    Arranging Data
    With a few mouse-clicks, you can reorganize your spreadsheet to show or hide certain data ranges, or to format ranges according to special conditions, or to quickly calculate subtotals and totals.

    Dynamic Charts
    OpenOffice.org Calc lets you present spreadsheet data in dynamic charts that update automatically when the data changes.

    Opening and Saving Microsoft Files
    Use the OpenOffice.org filters to convert Excel files, or to open and save in a variety of other formats.

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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    I'm very rusty on this, but I'll try to help.

    There tend not to be alternatives to calculus in science and engineering - it's the standard mathematical tool for solving a specific class of problems.

    Most of the time people have a problem with (for example) calculus it's because they are trying to do it 'by the numbers' - i.e. trying to blindly do (a) followed by (b) followed by (c). If you can't understand the underlying principles, then it's very easy to get lost when doing practical examples.

    All I can suggest is to go back and do some simpler problems until the principles become clearer. If necessary, go and find some textbooks below undergraduate level that give a more basic treatment of calculus and work through those.

    Most of those start with how to differentiate and get the gradient of a curve and they have geometric examples of the (x + delta x) form. Work through and write out the examples until they make sense to you. Then work through the general case of differentiating ax^n - which is about as simple a case as you can get.

    Similarly, work through the simple cases of integrating x^n.

    When you've done that look for some basic examples of integration and differentiation that you'll find it easy to visualize. As an example, if you know the equation for the distance an object moves relative to time, you can use calculus to find the velocity, acceleration, etc.

    There are a fair number of worked examples on the internet for things like objects falling from towers/cars driving away, etc. Objects falling/cars driving are things that you can easily picture mentally, so the calculus for working out velocity/acceleration should also be easier to understand in terms of the results you'll get.

    I think when you've done some simple exercises you can relate to, then the more complex aspects of calculus may become a little clearer as well.

    Best I can do...

    Phil.

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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    I would guess you work on one section or chapter at a time. Just put the equations in the same form as the section or chapter. I have to believe it is very repetitive. Care to give an example?

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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    I'm really working at this class. I did fine in algebra, had a few challenges, but mostly the classes made perfect sense. Now I feel like I am banging my head against the wall. I can figure out the word problems just fine, I know the answers to the questions but writing it in the algebraic form is killing me.

    I got 70% on both of my quizzes and have an exam on Wednesday. The really awful thing is that I'm doing better than most of my classmates. Just about everyone in the class got 0's on their quizzes, so I can't even turn to my classmates for study help. I met with a tutor today and he said that 2/3 of the students in this class will fail their first time through.

    I'm kind of freaking out, because I'm in the honors program and am on track to get scholarships because of it. If I can't pass this class, I'm in some trouble with my financial aid and my GPA will take a nose dive.

    I was wondering if anyone has any ideas for getting a different perspective on this kind of math? Is there such a thing as an alternative method to learning calculus?
    You're on the right track by seeking a different perspective. Calculus instructors assume you know algebra, geometry, and trig. Most of us tend to forget some to much of what we learned there. Calculus is very unforgiving if you don't have a solid foundation in mathematics. Once the foundation is set then you use the power of what you've learned to model relationships between variables. once you understand what calculus is trying to do, i. e. model, then it may become a bit clearer. Derivatives model rate of change, integrals model accumulation. See the link below to help with a new perspective; it's all around you in everyday life. If you can correlate what you experience with what calculus is modeling it may help. Still, it is hard.
    http://www.wmueller.com/precalculus/whatis/0.html

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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    I've tutored people in trig and calculus. I think you can find some pretty good calculus tutorials online. Are you using a book or instructors notes on the chalkboard?

    Maybe someone ought to sit down and talk with the instructor about making things easier and not going to fast for the class.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    You may want to go down into the computer lab and ask if they have a software package named "Maple" or "Mathematica."

    These are symbolic mathematics packages. That means, when you enter:

    derive(x^2, 1) which means the first derivative of x squared, it will return 2 * x which is the proper equation. (The syntax is probably wrong but it's something like that.)

    There should be a way to show how it derives it down like

    :derive(x^2, 1)

    2 * x | Power Rule n^y = y * n ^ (y - 1)

    Calculus is also very mechanical. You perform mechanical operations on the equation to get another equation.

    It will also help with trigonometry, series, etc.

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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    if you are not doing well in the class and you think it'll affect your gpa that much, maybe you should drop the course? if it's required for your major maybe you can take it with a different teacher that explains it better...

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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    I might be able to help you...pm me with specific questions. I've been through pre-calc, Calc I, and Calc II as part of my pharmacy school pre-reqs.
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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    When I was a freshman in college, I was required to take calculus--which infuriated me as I was planning on becoming an Egyptologist. But it was a classic Liberal Arts college with really tough standards, the term 'liberal arts' surprisingly enough meaning I absolutely had to take a wide variety of classes such as 'Tesselation and Stacking Structures' (a sort of physics dealing with molecular and atomic organization and binding). I think the average score on the midterms for that one was 35.

    And fucking calculus. What's more, the only available class was at 8 AM, which was tantamount to academic suicide for me, especially after I started dealing weed for spare cash and books (expensive!), and my dorm room became party central.

    Get on with it, Djoser...



    Sorry, anyway I wound up cheating more and more to pass the exams, but as calculus builds on prior knowledge and understanding, and I missed more and more 8 AM classes, it became hopeless. Instead of doing the smart thing and dropping the third 'quarter' (like a semester but there were three a year and one in the summer), I thought I could cheat my way through it as well.

    But writing down formulae in tiny little letters on scraps of paper isn't the same as knowing how to use them, so I flunked the finals and the class. No one at this college would allow themselves such mortal humiliation, but there it was. I got in the 97-8th percentile on the SAT mathematical, so it really was embarassing.

    Fucking get on with it Djoser...

    Anyway, sorry, the point is that advanced mathematics are as much a way of thinking as they are about solving any one problem. I realized that many years later when trying to fit shopping centers onto convoluted tracts of land. If you can get your brain working the right mode, as I failed miserably to do as a freshman, you will do a lot better.

    So yeah I'd say practice more with the simple equations until you feel more comfortable with the thought processes involved, then the advanced stuff will be a lot easier--relatively speaking--than it has been.

    Really the point of it all is to train your brain, to challenge it and get it to shift modes of thought and solve different kinds of problems. Who is a professional Calculator, anyway?

    Calculus is sort of the equivalent of triathalon training, so don't beat yourself up about it being hard to do. And just like with physical training, getting into the flow of it is the best way to improve.
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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    You guys are awesome! Thank you all. Yes, it is an 8am class which I'm sure doesn't help, but it was the only time available in my schedule. I spent the better part of yesterday working two problems, first with my instructor then on my own. Then with a tutor.

    Finally I started to understand the concept of how to graph a piece-wise function and properly using the graphing utility to confirm my answer. I had to laugh because up until now, my step-son has been much ahead of me in math and when I asked him about his knowledge on these problems, he just gave me a blank look, started looking through my text, then grabbed the graphing calculator and eventually gave up.

    In a funny way, I'm excited that I've out-paced him in math. I've always been proud of how skilled he is in math, but several years ago, I was no longer able to help him with his homework.

    Okay, these things aren't looking like hieroglyphs any more. Hmmmm, maybe that's why you had to have calculus for Egyptology, Djoser?

    Here's a sample of a problem that made me consider a major in English instead:



    f(x)= { x+3 if -2< x < 1
    f(x)= { 5 if x = 1
    f(x)= {-x+2 if x>1

    a. Find the domain of each function
    b. Locate any intercepts
    c. Graph each function
    d. based on the graph find the range
    e. Is f continuous on this graph?[/COLOR]

    It was sort of like those stupid "magic-eye" posters of the 1990s. Once I saw what I was looking for, I don't know how I couldn't see it before. But man! I got a lot of headaches getting to that point.

    I think they have this class set to be particularly challenging on purpose. This school specializes in Engineering and Medical degree programs. My instructor told me that 2/3 of the students in this pre-calculus class don't pass the first time through. It is sort of a vetting process to not let students w/o the talent for higher level programs of engineering or medical fields, skate through only to fail later in their college careers. I guess it is good to find out early on in one's major what is realistic for that individual. I glad that my other classes are a breeze for me this term. Otherwise, I'd be so screwed!


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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    You may want to go down into the computer lab and ask if they have a software package named "Maple" or "Mathematica."

    These are symbolic mathematics packages.
    I don't see how that's gonna simplify anything for her. Sorry. Just something else complicated to learn.

    Also for others, calculus generates equations with symbols, not specific numbers. The numbers come after you substitute numbers for the symbolic variables after calculus generates the equation. Like E = M * C^2 or D = R * T

    Yes, it's procedural; after all the used to call it, "The Calculus."

    <Personally, I like calculus a lot and it was very interesting to learn, all the way up past vector calculus, complex variables, non-linear partial differential equations, and tensors! Sorry for the nerdiness, but it's my profession.>
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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    I haven't done anything like this in years, but here's my attempt:

    f(x)= { x+3 if -2< x < 1
    f > 1 and f < 4
    (-2 + 3 = 1 and 1 + 3 = 4)
    Points -2,1 and 1,4 should be marked on the graph and a line drawn from one point to the other, which shows the domain

    f(x)= { 5 if x = 1
    f=5
    Point 1,5 should be marked on the graph

    f(x)= {-x+2 if x>1
    f < 1
    (-3 = -1 + 2)
    Point 1,1 should be marked on the graph. A continuous line should be drawn that starts at point 1,1 and goes through points 2,0 , 3,-1 , etc..

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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    That's just graphing an algebraic equation. Which is an important frist step in learning what happens when actually doing the calculus. And a most important help when integrating the function (finding the area under the function or curve). Piecewise functions are also like the tangent of an angle (which goes to infinity and is not continuous). Yours are 'piecewise continuous functions in a finite domain.'

    ----------
    Here's a real elementary calculus one for you...
    (1) what is the minimum area of a cylinder with top and bottom if the diameter is D and the height is H? give me the ratio of D to H (like trying to reduce container costs)

    (dont tell me it's pi*D*H + 2*pi*(D/2)^2, that's just the total area -- hint, use differentiation set to a minimum and then solve for one variable in terms of the other)

    Another a harder one...
    What initial angle should a projectile be fired (at 1000 ft/sec) to gain maximum range if the headwind is 15 knots favorable and the drag is .05 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_coefficient) and the sphere has a frontal area of 5 cm squared? And what is that range, the maximum height attained, and the ground impact speed?

    Yes, I've presented these problems in physical (not abstract math) terms so you can see some things it can be used for.
    Last edited by threlayer; 01-28-2009 at 10:52 PM. Reason: hints....
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    I confess. My eyes glazed over and I became sleepy.

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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    Man, I envy all of you who actually remember all of this after college. I hated math! I literally waited until the last minute to take the math courses and ended up doubling up on some of them to graduate on time. Ugh... and I don't remember a thing!

    My advice is ask your teach who he/she recommends as the best calculus tutor and see if there is some way of doing extra credit "just in case".
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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    Math has several advantages:
    1. you know what learning about it is gonna cost you from the beginning;
    2. it doesn't change its rules during the month;
    3. it works the same for you as it does to your parents;
    4. you are required to learn it before you can use it;
    5. a little homework goes a long way;
    6. you think life's confusing now, just think about not knowing anything at all about it;
    7. one day it doesn't make sense but the next day it all works out for you;
    8. if you work it right, it gives you the correct and honest answer;
    9. it actually can be figured out; and
    10. when you finally do figure it out, it doesn't punish you.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    Gambling is a tax on people who are bad at math

    Also, math means knowing what is true and what is not true.

    Mathematicians do it thoroughly, continuously, discretely and rigorously
    Once again, the conservative, sandwich-heavy portfolio pays off for the hungry investor
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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    I have a degree in math and actually teach at least 2 classes of pre-cal per year. I'd be happy to provide whatever help i can. PM me if you wish.
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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    Wow Im glad the dude next to me in class is knows this stuff and writes BIG!
    Wish I could help, but good luck and hang in there!

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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    Quote Originally Posted by person View Post
    Gambling is a tax on people who are bad at math

    Also, math means knowing what is true and what is not true.

    Mathematicians do it thoroughly, continuously, discretely and rigorously

    Yeah, but this is a lot more than grocery store math.

    Your jokes are deriving me crazy. LOL
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    Dood, just wait til you get to calculus. When you do you will love this joke.

    Two mathematicians were having dinner in a restaurant, arguing about the average mathematical knowledge of the American public. One mathematician claimed that this average was woefully inadequate, the other maintained that it was surprisingly high.

    "I'll tell you what," said the cynic. "Ask that waitress a simple math question. If she gets it right, I'll pick up dinner. If not, you do." He then excused himself to visit the men's room, and the other called the waitress over. "When my friend returns," he told her, "I'm going to ask you a question, and I want you to respond 'one third x cubed.' There's twenty bucks in it for you." She agreed.

    The cynic returned from the bathroom and called the waitress over. "The food was wonderful, thank you," the mathematician started. "Incidentally, do you know what the integral of x squared is?" The waitress looked pensive, almost pained. She looked around the room, at her feet, made gurgling noises, and finally said, "Um, one third x cubed?" So the cynic paid the check. The waitress wheeled around, walked a few paces away, looked back at the two men, and muttered under her breath, "...plus a constant."

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    Default Re: Pre Calculus OMG! This stuff is HARD!

    Good one.

    I like www.sosmath.com too, but it all requires some work.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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