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Thread: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

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    Default Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    Cost of locking up Americans too high - Pew study

    Mon Mar 2, 2009 7:44pm GMT

    WASHINGTON, March 2 (Reuters) - One in every 31 U.S. adults is in the corrections system, which includes jail, prison, probation and supervision, more than double the rate of a quarter century ago, according to a report released on Monday by the Pew Center on the States.
    The study, which said the current rate compares to one in 77 in 1982, concluded that with declining resources, more emphasis should be put on community supervision, not jail or prison.
    ...
    The United States has the highest incarceration rate and the biggest prison population of any country in the world, according to figures from the U.S. Department of Justice.
    ...
    Those numbers are higher in certain areas of the country, and Georgia tops all states with one in 13 adults in the justice system. The other leading states are Idaho, where one in 18 are in corrections and Texas, where the rate is one in 22. In the nation's capital, Washington, D.C., nearly 5 percent of adults are in the city's penal system.
    ...
    "The huge differences between states are mostly due not to crime trends, or social and economic forces," Gelb said. "The rates are different mostly because of choices that the states have made about how they respond to crime."
    ....
    _________________________
    I've left out a lot of the article. It's at... http://uk.reuters.com/article/market...2?pageNumber=1
    Last edited by threlayer; 03-02-2009 at 08:40 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    Found another one...

    Incarceration nation: 1 in 31 U.S. adults now in criminal justice system

    ...
    Our policies on crime and punishment aren't working and we can no longer afford them. Over the past two decades, state general fund spending on corrections has more than tripled to $68 billion a year. That means a lot less money for education, health care and other essential government services. Michigan spends $2 billion a year on corrections — more than it spends on higher education.
    ...
    What people forget is that nearly everyone sent to prison will get out. Roughly 600,000 people a year leave prison or jail and return to their communities, many of them unable to find work. Mass incarceration has made prison a norm in certain neighborhoods...
    ...
    The Pew report also notes that it costs, on average, 22 times more to lock offenders up than to supervise them in community programs like probation and parole than it does to lock them up. Diverting more lower-risk, non-violent offenders to community programs makes dollars and sense. It would lower corrections costs and enable states to spend more on education and other government services.

    We need to find a better way. It’s troubling and puzzling that many of the same people who attack government inefficiency give our costly and ineffective criminal justice system a pass by pushing for more of the same. Online at www.pewcenteronthestates.org

    ____________
    Full editorial at http://www.freep.com/article/2009030.../90302038/1001
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    And yet another with a different slant...

    Prison Spending Outpaces All but Medicaid
    Published: March 2, 2009

    Full article at... http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/03/us/03prison.html?em
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    Our policies on crime and punishment aren't working and we can no longer afford them.

    Truer words have never been spoken.

    We need to punish criminals, not give them a gym and tv, etc.. We also need to execute a lot more criminals. Sorry, but maybe the first (minor) violent offense we could try rehabilitation, but why after that, and why waste our money on them.

    And I also believe we should execute more murderers who don't fall into death penalty guidelines (pre-planning, etc.) and criminals who show a wanton disregard of others' life, because they are more dangerous.

    But we also need a change in prosecutions where we go after the criminal, not a conviction.

    Also, shouldn't this be in the politico section?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    Also, country to country comparos are not really good for this. Did you know that in one country, stealing from an ATM is not a crime.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    ^^ only if you make it political. To me it's just social news.

    Take it to member boards if you want to get political and controversial.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    God/dess verfolgung's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    Perhaps our criminal justice system is too lenient, and if the punishments are not enough of a deterrant for wanting to stay out of prision.

    In terms of community supervision, take a look at this site...

    http://www.familywatchdog.us/

    Use the "Find Offenders" tool in the middle of the site to show where registered offenders are in your area. You may be surprised to see how many registered offenders are living around you.
    If you can't win. Make the fellow in front of you break the record.


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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    ^^ Also perhaps prisons make even more hardened criminals out of minor ones.

    Many criminals think they'll never get caught, and that's why they start. Others are just caught up in the lifestyle or are desperate for drugs, and it's up to authorities to catch and give them free room and board.

    My main thought about this is that violent criminals belong in prison and non-violent ones belong in some other punitive system. Some can benefit from retraining, psych counseling, some cheaper means of effective confinement. I just don't know what it is.

    Still if I caught someone stealing from me, I'd try to kick him hard in the balls.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    did you know that georgia was started as a place to send prisoners? james oglethorpe, the founder of the colony of georgia, used it as a place to resettle some of england's poor people, especially the ones who were in prison for their debt.
    "If she wants to dance and drink all night, well there's no one that can stop her. She's going til the house lights come up or her stomach spills onto the floor. This night is gonna end when we're damn well ready for it to be over, worked all week long, and now the music is playing on our time. Yeah we do what we do to get by, and then we need a release!" - Against Me!, "Thrash Unreal"

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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    Debtors' prison. No, I didn't. From wikipedia...

    The colony's corporate charter was granted to James Oglethorpe on April 21, 1732, by George II, for whom the colony was named. Oglethorpe made very strict laws that many colonists disagreed with. Oglethorpe envisioned the province as a location for the resettlement of English debtors and "the worthy poor", although no debtors or convicts were part of the organized settlement of Georgia. Another motivation for the founding of the colony was as a "buffer state"(border), or "garrison province" that would defend the southern part of the British colonies from Spanish Florida. Oglethorpe imagined a province populated by "sturdy farmers" that could guard the border; because of this, the colony's charter prohibited slavery.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    Quote Originally Posted by verfolgung View Post
    Perhaps our criminal justice system is too lenient, and if the punishments are not enough of a deterrant for wanting to stay out of prision.
    Do you have stock in a commercial imprisonment corporation?

    If there are too many people in it now, does it make sense to do something that will put even more people in it? If prison doesn't work, does it make sense to enlarge its scope? It didn't deter Maloff (Ponzi scheme expert) because he dont think he'd get caught.

    Maybe something other than prison will work better for some criminals.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    losers who show a wanton disregard of others' life, because they are more dangerous.
    sounds like you are describing your own attitude. Now here is something more worthy of quoting "every saint has a past and ever sinner has a future"

    Another option besides genocide would be more negotiation processes before putting someone in prison. The prison system would be more of a monster tehn all the murders in there put together if you were to run it. I think there should be shorter sentences like nothing over 10 yrs in most cases where 20 yrs is given etc. It is so sad that there are better job oppurtunities for nazis (probabtion officers, corrections gaurd, cops) then there are for people who want to make peace from these criminals pasts (drug/abuse councelors, teachers). But instead our country is just hiding from the sad truth of the justice system every day while old ass 70 yr old men who made a mistake at 20 yrs old are treated in a manner only the devil could respect.....

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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    Quote Originally Posted by PULSEHEAD View Post
    sounds like you are describing your own attitude. Now here is something more worthy of quoting "every saint has a past and ever sinner has a future"

    Another option besides genocide would be more negotiation processes before putting someone in prison. The prison system would be more of a monster tehn all the murders in there put together if you were to run it. I think there should be shorter sentences like nothing over 10 yrs in most cases where 20 yrs is given etc. It is so sad that there are better job oppurtunities for nazis (probabtion officers, corrections gaurd, cops) then there are for people who want to make peace from these criminals pasts (drug/abuse councelors, teachers). But instead our country is just hiding from the sad truth of the justice system every day while old ass 70 yr old men who made a mistake at 20 yrs old are treated in a manner only the devil could respect.....

    Nope, and why did you change want I said. I said "criminals".

    Our actions should be punished. Murder someone, well, why shouldn't you get the chair (figuratively speaking as I prefer cheaper ways of execution). What about violent crimes (rapes, assaults)? I happen to think the worth of the party who was violated is worth more than the perps. Rehabilitation has not worked. If they want to "make peace with the perps past", when the perp can make the victim whole again, then maybe we can be more lenient, otherwise the perp should have thought about it first.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    Connections here?

    The US has had a very high rate of :
    • crimes
    • illegal drug usage
    • imprisonment
    • gun ownership
    • personal liberty
    • consumerism (low savings)
    • religious affiliation
    • ghetto population
    • wealth ethic ....

    and also a strong recent history of :
    • slavery
    • racial discrimination
    • indiginous population genocide
    • civil war
    • porous borders ....

    I don't have a degree in sociology, psychology, criminal behavior, or anthropology so I don't know, but it's peculiar......
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    Connections here?

    The US has had a very high rate of :
    • crimes Doesn't this explain it. High rate of crimes means more in jail.
    • illegal drug usage
    • imprisonment So we shouldn't punish crimianls by putting them in jail?
    • gun ownership wow legal weapons ownership gets thrown in.
    • personal liberty Are you saying we need to lose some more rights.
    • consumerism (low savings) GAG
    • religious affiliation YAWN
    • ghetto population SO if the Jews of Poland just surrendered at the onset, it would have reduced the gun crime rate in their ghetto?
    • wealth ethic .... blah blah blah Because someone has more than another is the problem now. Goodness gracious.

    and also a strong recent history of :
    • slavery Slavery existed in Africa before the Arabs took the market and then Euros took market share. It still exists there.
    • racial discrimination Come on now. How much of this (in todays society) is percieved by the individual. Remember, theres a commie under every rock.
    • indiginous population genocide Look to history, there is no NATIVE population anywhere, conquerors mixed their blood into the equation. Everyone came from somewhere and resettled.
    • civil war 1861-1864. Strong, recent. lol
    • porous borders ....[/b]wow we agree. We need better border controls. But then again, while criminals cross the border, not all crossers are **criminals**.[/b]

    I don't have a degree in sociology, psychology, criminal behavior, or anthropology so I don't know, but it's peculiar......
    Hey, can you give me a quick run down on Alexander the Great's responsibility of the ills of today. Is he the reason why we say "going to do them Greek style" today?
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    It is very likely time that Americans look at their criminal code and determine what is and is not a crime. It seems to me that some "crimes" that have high levels of incarceration might need to be examined as to the actual impact on society in re: actual physical damages and/or negative financial impact on society.

    I was thinking specifically of drug crimes and prostitution. Also the prosecution of teens emailing their nude or semi nude photos to one another as distribution and possession of child pornography is just absurd. Under our current legal system, anyone who viewed Harry Potter star Daniel Radcliff's nude photos that were widely distributed when he was 17, could technically be prosecuted for possession of child pornography.

    It seems our justice system needs some common sense guidelines. Thank god the Fed is prohibited, as of this week, from arresting cancer patients for using medical marijuana in states where it is now legal. That is some hard hitting police work, I tell you! How big of a pussy does a cop have to be to think, "Wow, I'm going to go bust grandma because she is using her legal marijuana prescription."


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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    I have been caught up in the legal system twice. Once was mistaken identity, and the cop saw my ID. Yet his inflated ego rufused to allow him to admit I was not the person he was looking for. I was hauled off to jail for a warrant on someone else.
    The other time was a charge that was eventually dropped due to lack of evidence. It took about two years to get to that point. I had to turn myself in and post bail. Spent about 18 hours that time in the pin. One year after that the charge was expunged from my record. though it is still on FBI records when I cross the border.
    The criminal justice system is a business. The people working in and running the jails get money. The town the jail is in gets money. I paid out a total of about $7000 dollars fighting the sytem to keep my name clear.
    I learned that it is really guilty until proven innocent. It changed the way I look at the accused. Until a person it convicted I will not believe it. Yet many have also been covicted of crimes and then cleared via DNA evidence.
    "Can we read it on the Smoking Gun? "

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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    You have some good points Paris.

    I think the medical use of pot is like saying let's do an 8ball instead of taking <insert name of med here>. Also, where is the limit, pricks finger >>marijuana. One reason they were cracking down was because the **medical issue** was just a smoke screen.

    As for the prosecutions in the teen girl sending nudes pics. The prosecutor is not going after people who got the pic and then deleted it. They are going afte people who kept sending it to other people, and those who kept the pic. Is that right? Well, it is against the law. What if she were 13? Would that make a difference.
    Last edited by glambman; 03-04-2009 at 04:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    Do you have stock in a commercial imprisonment corporation?

    If there are too many people in it now, does it make sense to do something that will put even more people in it? If prison doesn't work, does it make sense to enlarge its scope? It didn't deter Maloff (Ponzi scheme expert) because he dont think he'd get caught.

    Maybe something other than prison will work better for some criminals.

    You missed my point. The issue isn't as simple as just saying "prison doesn't work". The criminal justice system as a whole has many flaws. I was simply making a comment on one aspect - population. One of many reasons why the criminal justice system is overly taxed is because some of the punishments may not be perceived as being enough of a deterrant to make people avoid prison in the first place.


    For example: Drunk Driving Sweden vs. US

    In Sweden the BAC rate is 0.02, vs 0.08 or 0.10 in the US. Sweden also has significantly tougher laws against drunk driving than the US. Sweden considers a 0.10 blood-alcohol limit "aggravated" drunk driving with suggested imprisonment of up two years. Where in the US it might take several violations before even a license is even revoked.

    It is no surprise that DUI rates are much higher in the US vs. Sweden. Is it because Sweden is locking everyone up and over crowding their prisons with DUI convictions due to their tougher laws? Or perhaps it is because people there realize the crime is not worth commiting in the first place.

    Teenage DUIs are down and DUI Fatalities are down in Sweden. But guess what, while these rates were down studies showed that drinking was actually up in the country. People just weren't getting behind the wheel. Sweden was able to come up with a more effective deterant.
    Last edited by verfolgung; 03-04-2009 at 07:41 PM.
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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    ... One in every 31 U.S. adults is in the corrections system, which includes jail, prison, probation and supervision, more than double the rate of a quarter century ago, ...
    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    ... Maybe something other than prison will work better for some criminals. ...

    What would that other something be such that it wouldn't be included in the orginal statistic sited? Once someone is designated a criminal, isn't what happens to them from there part of a criminal justice system?


    Is the issue with the criminal justice system, or the enforcement which places people in the criminal justice system? Is it the goal not to have as many people designated as "criminals" in the first place?
    If you can't win. Make the fellow in front of you break the record.


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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    My point in the OP and all posts since has been that the USA has a LOT of people in prison. I have very little idea about why this is so but I'd like to figure it out a little.

    Glambman, instead of trying to ridicule some brainstorming effort here, why don't you elther help or lay off? I need no explanations, excuses or apologies. Constructive comments only PLEASE.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    Quote Originally Posted by verfolgung View Post
    You missed my point. The issue isn't as simple as just saying "prison doesn't work".
    My point is that why do we have so many people in these expensive prisons? Not that we need more of them, which is I believe what you are driving at. Yeah, the courts are often stupid and overly rigid, and they will never be perfect. We may well need more policement, but we also need BETTER policemen. Too many things end people up in prison when other types of punishment in general may well be better for all concerned. It's a money-making institution because we spend so much money on expensive imprisonment systems. That is the purpose of including those articles, which you should read.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    My "connections" question is relevant because social tendencies are a long-standing trait of societies.

    An example of this why did "Latin America" integrated the indiginous peoples while the USA decimated them? A very different and unrelated example illustrating the hold-over effect is the still prevalent puritannical attitude toward sexuality. Even though these things are ancient, the fact is that they are holdovers and our attitudes toward many things may still be reflected by whatever it was that caused them.

    Cause and effect isn't as simple as A causes B; therefore remove A and B goes away. It's like farmers who remove wolves because they are killing their sheep and then they find deer and elk competing with their sheep for food. In reality things often are just not as simple as our minds may want them. Sometimes we have to work to find solutions and not just throw around worn-out slogans.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

  26. #24
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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    My point is that why do we have so many people in these expensive prisons? Not that we need more of them, which is I believe what you are driving at. Yeah, the courts are often stupid and overly rigid, and they will never be perfect. We may well need more policement, but we also need BETTER policemen. Too many things end people up in prison when other types of punishment in general may well be better for all concerned. It's a money-making institution because we spend so much money on expensive imprisonment systems. That is the purpose of including those articles, which you should read.
    I did read the articles, did you?

    I think the numbers in your OP are a bit skewed because not every 1 in 31 is in Prison. The statistic is 1 in 31 is in the criminal justice system, which includes probation and other non-prison supervisory roles.

    Also, I NEVER said we needed more prisons. I'm not sure how you inferred that. All I said was that our criminal justice system may need stronger deterrants than the ones currently in place. Since the current deterrants are obviously not strong enough to keep enough people from being willing to go to prison, then perhaps stronger deterrants would, thus shrinking the overall prision population.
    If you can't win. Make the fellow in front of you break the record.


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    Default Re: Very High Percent of People in the Legal System

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    My point in the OP and all posts since has been that the USA has a LOT of people in prison. I have very little idea about why this is so but I'd like to figure it out a little.

    Glambman, instead of trying to ridicule some brainstorming effort here, why don't you elther help or lay off? I need no explanations, excuses or apologies. Constructive comments only PLEASE.
    China executes their drug offenders, so we have more drug offenders locked up (i.e.- more prisoners).

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post

    An example of this why did "Latin America" integrated the indiginous peoples while the USA decimated them?
    Have you ever been to S/ C America? I have, you are wrong and are falling for the utopian socialists propaganda if you believe they are integrated. (
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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