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Thread: what is fair?

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    Dizzy what is fair?

    I hope i do not get blasted for asking this

    I have read about how some dancers get paid and the deductions, what catches my interest are the women who complain.

    What i am meaning by that is, if you were simply walk into clubs and not pay anything (floor fees, % of dances....basically anything to the club) how do you expect the clubs to stay open and desirable for customers to come in and receive entertainment (dances, drinks, food).

    I would think owners if they wanted to generate money strictly from drinks and food they would have opened a restaurant. It would be cheaper and from what i have been reading perhaps less hassles from police, politicians, bible thumpers and unsavory characters. Leaving them with the option to bring their money to a (strip club) to spend on their off time.

    I just find that certain people seem pretty self serving and are shocked, that just as they look at their work as "business" they have a hard time understanding that the owners have a great many of things to "pay" just so staff have a place to generate income.

    Is it possible that this trend tends to lead to clubs dying out or simply not giving a shit about staff?

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    Default Re: what is fair?

    um. sounds like you're not really asking a question, more like you're just bitching about girls being greedy.

    personally, as long as i can make at least 4 times the amount i spend on house and tip out, i'm comfortable. we pay those for the opportunity to make money at a place that assures us that opportunity. so if house and minimum tip out combined are around 50$, a dancer should be able to walk with at least 200. that feels fair. if the club does not offer the opportunity to make at least that, it is not fair.

    that said, as soon as a club becomes an unpleasant place to work, it feels like any amount is unfair. that's why you see so many girls bitching about having to tip djs they aren't happy with. or not wanting to tip waitstaff who are rude and unhelpful. or security who allow us to be assaulted, when we thought that those tips went towards our protection. who wants to tip people if we feel they don't help us make money?

    if a club is well run and has plenty of quality girls, the money they get from the girls does not just go into running the business. the owners will make a lot in pure profit. if they are smart, they will continue to reinvest into the business and continue to keep fees that girls consider fair, because that's how you keep good girls. it goes both ways.
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    Default Re: what is fair?

    I think it's fair for clubs to ask for a share, and I gladly hand it over, including generous tips to bus boys and DJs and bartenders as well. We're all in this together! However, I have noticed management try to 'stiff' some girls - i.e. telling new girls that the house fees are higher than they actually are because they don't know better, or creating excessively harsh fines on the days that business is slow, and it's ridiculous! Also, things like harsh fines for leaving your shift early - even if you have a migraine, or cramps, or got some news over the phone and have to run! I mean, if you're paying your fee and doing your job, why slap on crazy fines? Anyway, I can see why many get frustrated, though I have never really had too negative an experience with house fees, tipouts, etc.

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    Default Re: what is fair?

    Thanks for the responses, but you are the perfect examples of what makes the system work. Just wanted to know...do you encourage customers to drink, eat and buy merchandise (if available)? It seems like you understand that you and the club need each other to succeed. I see how it can be frustrating having fines but......on some threads you have people admitting to using excuses to ditch their shift to party, get laid, go to other clubs or they simply did not feel like working. This really is not a rant, as my title suggested, I am simply curious.

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    Default Re: what is fair?

    Quote Originally Posted by MRno View Post
    I hope i do not get blasted for asking this

    I have read about how some dancers get paid and the deductions, what catches my interest are the women who complain.

    What i am meaning by that is, if you were simply walk into clubs and not pay anything (floor fees, % of dances....basically anything to the club) how do you expect the clubs to stay open and desirable for customers to come in and receive entertainment (dances, drinks, food).

    I would think owners if they wanted to generate money strictly from drinks and food they would have opened a restaurant. It would be cheaper and from what i have been reading perhaps less hassles from police, politicians, bible thumpers and unsavory characters. Leaving them with the option to bring their money to a (strip club) to spend on their off time.

    I just find that certain people seem pretty self serving and are shocked, that just as they look at their work as "business" they have a hard time understanding that the owners have a great many of things to "pay" just so staff have a place to generate income.

    Is it possible that this trend tends to lead to clubs dying out or simply not giving a shit about staff?

    When a business person pays a fee to an organization to do business at a particular location, they do so because that organization is driving customers through the doors. For instance, subway has locations inside Wal Mart stores because there is a lot of customers available to buy sandwiches. When someone sells their items on Ebay it is because there are a lot of people shopping on ebay. Malls charge a preium to merchants because the mall has advertizing to drive traffic into the stores.

    It is not up to the individual businesses to prop up the building owner, therefore the businesses need to keep the building owner going by paying out of pocket, even if the building owner isn't driving customers to his merchants. Ditto with strip clubs. The job of the club is to drive business through the doors so that the strippers can continue to pay the house fees.

    The primary income from a strip club must, by law, be from the sale of cover charges, drinks and food. It would be illegal to be dependent on income from necessary independent contractors in order to remain in business. Why? Because if a business is dependent on the labor of those contractors for their day to day opperations, then legally those contractors must be listed as employees. This is from the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938.


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    Default Re: what is fair?

    I think most if not all of us realize that the club has to pay overhead or they would not stay in business and therefore we would not have jobs. However I think it is possible for a club to pay their expenses without gouging their golden geese so to speak. I know we are in a different time economically. However there was a time when dancers not only did not pay all these house fees,but they also got an actual salary. The commissions on drinks in NYC clubs in the eighties was fairly modest(2 dollars on a twenty dollar split of champagne. if I remember correctly..bottles of course got bigger and more expensive from there)

    I hear dancers on this board say things to the effect that "the customer would rather see ME get the money than the club." However I remember when I was a newby saying something about the small commission we got and a custy not being nasty,just being logical responded with something like-"do you pay the light bill,the rent,etc?" He made me realize I had a pretty good deal since my only overhead was my hairdo,etc..-ha ha. Cheers,Harlow
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    Default Re: what is fair?

    Thanks for the explanation and as stated before i get all of that, what i dont get is the individuals who have written on other threads things similar to...."at all cost i try to avoid paying the club a cent" at the same time mentioning that they "only" made hundreds of dollars for their shift.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    When a business person pays a fee to an organization to do business at a particular location, they do so because that organization is driving customers through the doors. For instance, subway has locations inside Wal Mart stores because there is a lot of customers available to buy sandwiches. When someone sells their items on Ebay it is because there are a lot of people shopping on ebay. Malls charge a preium to merchants because the mall has advertizing to drive traffic into the stores.

    It is not up to the individual businesses to prop up the building owner, therefore the businesses need to keep the building owner going by paying out of pocket, even if the building owner isn't driving customers to his merchants. Ditto with strip clubs. The job of the club is to drive business through the doors so that the strippers can continue to pay the house fees.

    The primary income from a strip club must, by law, be from the sale of cover charges, drinks and food. It would be illegal to be dependent on income from necessary independent contractors in order to remain in business. Why? Because if a business is dependent on the labor of those contractors for their day to day opperations, then legally those contractors must be listed as employees. This is from the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938.

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    Default Re: what is fair?

    Quote Originally Posted by MRno View Post
    Thanks for the explanation and as stated before i get all of that, what i dont get is the individuals who have written on other threads things similar to...."at all cost i try to avoid paying the club a cent" at the same time mentioning that they "only" made hundreds of dollars for their shift.
    Well, I guess that is no different than a corporation legally registering in the Cayman Islands to avoid paying taxes in the US (cough.. KBR/Haliburton, cough...cough). There are just some people who are greedy, no matter how much they make, they are so egotistical that they can't understand the need to pay for services they take.


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    Default Re: what is fair?

    I do no think that simply because some dancers are complaining about the house fees that they are somehow morally right or wrong. Dancers try to get as much money out of customers as they can, and customers try to get as much out of the dancers as they can. Dancers try to pay as little to the house as possible, and the house tries to take from the dancers as much as possible. I too try to get as much money from my employer, and they try to pay me as least as possible. That's just free market at work.

    People bitch. No big deal.

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    Default Re: what is fair?

    Quote Originally Posted by MRno View Post
    Thanks for the responses, but you are the perfect examples of what makes the system work. Just wanted to know...do you encourage customers to drink, eat and buy merchandise (if available)? It seems like you understand that you and the club need each other to succeed. I see how it can be frustrating having fines but......on some threads you have people admitting to using excuses to ditch their shift to party, get laid, go to other clubs or they simply did not feel like working. This really is not a rant, as my title suggested, I am simply curious.
    of course, i try to get guys to buy anything that's available for them to buy, and to tip anyone possible such as waitresses and whoever is onstage.

    i don't recall ever seeing anyone post about ditching to party or get laid. unless maybe they were bitching about loser custies asking them to ditch their shift, and how stupid the sorts of customers who do that are.

    you keep saying things to put dancers down. and with your username. seriously. you are coming off pretty strongly as a troll.

    Quote Originally Posted by MRno View Post
    Thanks for the explanation and as stated before i get all of that, what i dont get is the individuals who have written on other threads things similar to...."at all cost i try to avoid paying the club a cent" at the same time mentioning that they "only" made hundreds of dollars for their shift.
    you are a troll. such a total and complete troll. go the fuck away.
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    Default Re: what is fair?

    Sadly as much as house fees suck there is really no right or wrong about it. The house fee is more like a stage rental fee. They make it look like a privledge to work there and not at a private party or on the street. I personally consider it my right and disagree with unset percentages or high house fees. But there are also strip clubs that do not serve food or alcohol. So they have higher house fees than others would.

    What gets dancers the most upset about it is that we all pay (or in my case did) the house fee and do our job the best we can and they still treat us like shit. Like we are lower than they are because we dance. But what they forget is that we pay their bills. Without the dancers they would have nothing and are for sure better off opening a resturaunt. Not that it is a bad thing to open one but you get the idea.


    I would have never complained of house fees if they had just treated all the girls as equals and didn't play favorites. And I know there are many others that would agree with this.





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    Default Re: what is fair?

    I have personally heard girls complain about making $500 and how it wasn't worth their time. There are also many more dancers I've discussed this with and most agree that those who don't appreciate earning $500 from one shift are out of their minds. Or probably just used to fast and easy money in much higher numbers when the economy was better, are used to living a certain lifestyle and are no longer able to maintain it.

    I firmly believe that one has to know what it's like to not have in order to appreciate having. And having to work for it.
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    Default Re: what is fair?

    If by "troll" you mean someone interested in educating themselves on a topic instead of jumping to conclusions then indeed i am that "troll"

    If you were to look into the subject like i have you will find many different opinions here on the subject...I for one came across "worst stripper sins" as well as other threads.

    I believe i made myself clear as to I most definitely am not passing judgment or trying to offend in any manner. But at the same time I know that any subject may be viewed to the readers understanding of the issue. I am just thankful for those who shed some light.


    Quote Originally Posted by she sells sanctuary View Post
    of course, i try to get guys to buy anything that's available for them to buy, and to tip anyone possible such as waitresses and whoever is onstage.

    i don't recall ever seeing anyone post about ditching to party or get laid. unless maybe they were bitching about loser custies asking them to ditch their shift, and how stupid the sorts of customers who do that are.

    you keep saying things to put dancers down. and with your username. seriously. you are coming off pretty strongly as a troll.



    you are a troll. such a total and complete troll. go the fuck away.

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    Default Re: what is fair?

    Quote Originally Posted by MRno View Post
    ...I would think owners if they wanted to generate money strictly from drinks and food they would have opened a restaurant. ...
    When was the last time you were willing to pay a cover charge for going into a restaurant?

    When was the last time you were in a normal restaurant and willing to pay a 200%-500% markup on the cost of a normal drink?

    How many customers of a normal restaurant spend several hours on end during a single visit?

    As a % how many restaurants are able to keep busy other then their normal lunch or dinner rush hours?

    IMHO - well operated SC's can have several financial advantages over a normal restaurant due to their draw and entertainment value. Charging house fees was not always the norm. In fact, there was a time when it was customary to pay the dancers. Clubs still pay feature dancers fairly decent sums for the draw they create.

    I honestly believe that a well run club would not have to charge house fees in order to survive. They do so, because it is a convenient revenue stream. Dancers who work at a well run club are typically willing to pay the house fees to work in a place with solid earning potential.

    Clubs that are overly dependant on house fees, will likely end up failing or turning into a dive. If they need the house fees, it means they are not bringing enough customers in the door. In turn the best dancers will eventually leave and the club will go into a downward spiral.
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    Default Re: what is fair?

    Myself, although i do not make a habit of it unlesss entertaining clients, have been to many "higher end" restaurants where for a sitting of 4 adults have had a bill well over $500. That is just for drinks and a full course meal.

    In regards to "there was a time when...", sure that time is when things were not perceived as a cash grab and when the majority or performers where in todays standards "features".

    Quote Originally Posted by verfolgung View Post
    When was the last time you were willing to pay a cover charge for going into a restaurant?

    When was the last time you were in a normal restaurant and willing to pay a 200%-500% markup on the cost of a normal drink?

    How many customers of a normal restaurant spend several hours on end during a single visit?

    As a % how many restaurants are able to keep busy other then their normal lunch or dinner rush hours?

    IMHO - well operated SC's can have several financial advantages over a normal restaurant due to their draw and entertainment value. Charging house fees was not always the norm. In fact, there was a time when it was customary to pay the dancers. Clubs still pay feature dancers fairly decent sums for the draw they create.

    I honestly believe that a well run club would not have to charge house fees in order to survive. They do so, because it is a convenient revenue stream. Dancers who work at a well run club are typically willing to pay the house fees to work in a place with solid earning potential.

    Clubs that are overly dependant on house fees, will likely end up failing or turning into a dive. If they need the house fees, it means they are not bringing enough customers in the door. In turn the best dancers will eventually leave and the club will go into a downward spiral.

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    Default Re: what is fair?

    Bottom line is that any strip club that has been open for more than ten years or so has survived without charging house fees. The "pay to work" standard is a actually a relatively new phenomenon in the strip club industry. Any dancer who has been around for a while can remember the days when you actually go shift pay for showing up!

    The VAST majority of a clubs revenue is derived from drink sales. If they have decent food that can be a money maker as well. Cover charges, house fees, fines and dance fees are all icing on the cake as far as revenue goes.

    I honestly don't know that many dancers who complain about paying house fees as long as the fees are reasonable. In fact, at my ATF's club the dancers recently volunteered to have their house fee raised by five dollars a day rather than to have the club raise their customer entrance fee to the private dance area.

    This is a dancer support site and as such the ladies come her to vent. Reading too much into the words of a few posters can give customers an unrealistic view of how most people actually feel about any given topic that gets discussed here.
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    Default Re: what is fair?

    Quote Originally Posted by MRno View Post
    Myself, although i do not make a habit of it unlesss entertaining clients, have been to many "higher end" restaurants where for a sitting of 4 adults have had a bill well over $500. That is just for drinks and a full course meal.

    In regards to "there was a time when...", sure that time is when things were not perceived as a cash grab and when the majority or performers where in todays standards "features".

    That's my point. How many "high end" restaurants can there be? How many SC's really have the option of changing their venue to a high end restaurant?

    Also, you're talking about a sitting of four adults for dinner. How many high end restaurants also have lone patrons regularly coming in, sitting for several hours, and spending significant amounts?

    In regards to my "there was a time when", the point was to illustrate that your original premise was flawed in regards to dancers needing to pay house fees in order to cover overhead. It's just simply not the case.
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    Default Re: what is fair?

    Quote Originally Posted by MRno View Post
    ... I just find that certain people seem pretty self serving and are shocked, that just as they look at their work as "business" they have a hard time understanding that the owners have a great many of things to "pay" just so staff have a place to generate income. ...

    IMO you are ignoring the other side of the coin. The presence of high qaulity professional dancers attracts higher paying clientele and helps to drive greater earnings for a club. It's a symbiotic partnership where dancers and the club hopefully benefit from each other.

    I know of one club that was starting to suffer financially, so they increased the house fees for the girls as a quick way to increase their revenues. Their best dancers left for another venue, and as a result no only did they loose their additional house fees, but they also lost customers who followed the dancers to their new clubs.

    I also know of another club where they decided to hire more dancers as a way to increase house fee revenue. The place was only a small club and could only serve enough customers to support so many dancers. Quickly the shifts became overly crowded by dancers, and the best girls got frustrated and left. Again the result was a loss of the house fee revenue, and a drop off in the level of clientele.

    In both cases the club would have been better off looking into ways to attract more customers, than simply looking to house fees for revenue.
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    Default Re: what is fair?

    Quote Originally Posted by MRno View Post

    I would think owners if they wanted to generate money strictly from drinks and food they would have opened a restaurant.
    They could just open a restaurant or bar. Of course they wouldn't be able to charge 8 dollars for a bud light, or 20 dollars just to walk in the door. The only reason they can charge so much is because they have naked girls.

    There are reasons for us to complain. The number one reason being that our fees continue to be raised, while the prices we can charge stay the same. We are basically getting regular pay cuts, while everyone else get the occasional pay raise. If we were allowed to set our own prices, then we could adjust them to cover our costs.

    The other reason is that some clubs do not provide the things we need in exchange for the rent we pay. We pay house fees, but the club doesn't advertise and there are mice in the dressing room. We are forced to tip bouncers, but they don't have our backs when some guy tries to rip us off. We have to tip DJs, but they skip us on stage and call us bitches. Mandatory tips for the housemom, even if we never use her services and would prefer not to have some old lady yelling at us to go back on the floor. Of course, this isn't the case at all clubs. The one I work at now is not like this, and I would never complain about their fees.

    Unless you work at a strip club, then you don't know what goes on behind the scenes and you don't get to judge us for complaining. If I do 50 dances in a shift and go home with $500, then yes I am going to complain. 50 dances is a LOT of work. I'd like to see you spend 5 minutes grinding on some dude and walk away happy that you made enough money for a value meal at mcdonalds.
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    Default Re: what is fair?

    I find it interesting that OP is ignoring any potential for greed on the club's end. Hell, I always avoided paying extra fees at every club I worked. Unless it was the shift fee, i would do everything I could to avoid paying it. At one club we used to have a flat fee to work, and then we'd keep all our LD money, but pay the club a percentage for VIP. I generally didn't mention VIP to customers, made lots of money solely from LDs, and walked out without giving the club more than the $25-50 shift fee (obviously I tipped out generously, but that's to staff, not the club). I was damned if I would give the club 30% of a VIP when I could make more than that from dances.

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    Default Re: what is fair?

    I have not ignored anything i was simply asking based on what i had come across in this forum. I appreciate the responses mainly from the view of knowing that certain clubs fail on their return (up keeping the decor, not offering ample security, taxing the dancers with out offering anything in return).

    In regards to your outlook, i suppose your outlook is what i was interested to know. You seem to look solely after yourself and staff, but i have the feeling that if your club were to close, and all the staff had to scramble for work then you may be the first to complain about that.

    With the changing economical time i wonder if your mentality will change as more people are looking into the industry for a means to support themselves and family and in turn bring a more ..."I wash your hands, you wash mine."

    Quote Originally Posted by Otoki View Post
    I find it interesting that OP is ignoring any potential for greed on the club's end. Hell, I always avoided paying extra fees at every club I worked. Unless it was the shift fee, i would do everything I could to avoid paying it. At one club we used to have a flat fee to work, and then we'd keep all our LD money, but pay the club a percentage for VIP. I generally didn't mention VIP to customers, made lots of money solely from LDs, and walked out without giving the club more than the $25-50 shift fee (obviously I tipped out generously, but that's to staff, not the club). I was damned if I would give the club 30% of a VIP when I could make more than that from dances.

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    Default Re: what is fair?

    Just because people can accept the fact the government taxes them, it doesn't mean people don't gripe about the taxes they pay out anyway. This reaction you're trying to shed light on is not exclusive to the strip club industry by any means.

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    Default Re: what is fair?

    The relationship between a club and it's entertainers is EXTREMELY skewed from what it should be.

    The way that it is: The dancers come into the club and not only have to depend on themselves to make sales, but also fight off DJs who think that they can take liberties with the dancers, bouncers who only want to look at their...stuff... and managers who are either too inflexible or uncaring, then have to pay exorbitant fees to the house, plus fees for VIP room dances. The girls are treated like they are on the level of the janitor at Burger King, if not lower.

    The way it SHOULD be: The girls are in charge of the DJ, and the bouncers, when they need to be. Both answer to the manager, but, if a dancer tells them to "watch this guy" or "make sure that these lights are on me, and this one is not in my face", then they should listen. The management should have ample advertisement to get new customers in, and also should have a reduced tip-out schedule for VIP specials, such as 2for1. If you are running that special, then the girls should only have to tip out for 1 song, not 2. (It may not happen like that in your club, but I know of 2 locally where it does).
    The girls ARE the starts, and are the ones the customers come to see. They pay the bouncers, the DJ, the Managers, and the other staff members. (The bar should generate enough money to pay the bartender and waitresses, as well as be able to cover their own costs for alcohol and supplies). The door should cover not only the door person, but also all bills, such as lease, power, water, and licensing fees, etc. That is how a BUSINESS should run.

    It doesn't work like this. I have a lot of ideas about things that could make a lot of money and bring a lot more customers into the clubs. I'd like to discuss them... maybe I'll start a thread somewhere????

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    Default Re: what is fair?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cappii View Post
    That is how a BUSINESS should run?????.
    It doesn't work like this. I have a lot of ideas about things that could make a lot of money and bring a lot more customers into the clubs. I'd like to discuss them... maybe I'll start a thread somewhere????
    So you were a manager for some time, used all your great ideas, left the scene and are now back into it because your wife strips.

    I think that what you have to say may not hold a lot of weight. If your great ideas did not work when you were actually in the "scene" do you think being a "couch quarterback" has any purpose?

    Feel free to start your own thread or at least if you post in someones, address the OP's initial question.

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    Default Re: what is fair?

    hmmm... maybe you are a troll. You didn't read my post carefully enough to make the assumptions that you are making. Maybe if you actually took the time to READ things, and LISTEN to other people's issues, you'd not be in here as a "club owner" worrying about your business being closed down because the girls don't want to pay your exorbitant house fees. If the girls are bitching, LISTEN to their complaints before disregarding them.

    FYI, I NEVER managed strip clubs, nor did I say anywhere that I did. So, you can take what you think and a buck and go buy yourself a soda.

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