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Thread: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post


    PETA has supported ELF. So what if the CC supports anti-abortion groups, do you not think that PP supports pro-abortion groups. Why is one wrong and not the other?
    There's many things wrong. For one, people for abortion aren't "pro abortion". No, they believe in a woman to exercise her right to an abortion. These pro life organizations oppose abortion even in cases of rape, incest, and health. Abortion is legal, and whether someone supports it or not, it's legal. Plus, the Catholic Church is ruled by men, men who can't ever get pregnant. Do you think the church would be against abortion if men got pregnant? Of course not. It's part of a plan to hurt women. Ever notice that most of these "pro-life" organizations are mostly ruled by men and these same people don't support welfare? It's not coincidence. PP doesn't use religion to push their agenda.

    So what if PETA supports ELF? They aren't using religion for their beliefs. If you don't support PETA, don't give money to them. I happen to support animal rights, but I don't give to PETA.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    There's many things wrong. For one, people for abortion aren't "pro abortion". No, they believe in a woman to exercise her right to an abortion. These pro life organizations oppose abortion even in cases of rape, incest, and health. Abortion is legal, and whether someone supports it or not, it's legal. Plus, the Catholic Church is ruled by men, men who can't ever get pregnant. Do you think the church would be against abortion if men got pregnant? Of course not. It's part of a plan to hurt women. Ever notice that most of these "pro-life" organizations are mostly ruled by men and these same people don't support welfare? It's not coincidence. PP doesn't use religion to push their agenda.

    So what if PETA supports ELF? They aren't using religion for their beliefs. If you don't support PETA, don't give money to them. I happen to support animal rights, but I don't give to PETA.
    I think it's nice (and telling) that you used the phrase pro-life. Normally, it would be anti-choice. Some on the right would use the label pro-death. But the issue is abortion, you are either pro- and anti-, the rest is sugar coating or insulting.

    I don't think you have to be a man or a woman to believe in something or that it makes you any less capable of 'understanding'.

    I don't think most anti-abortion groupd are ruled by men, I have seen group founders who started them because they got an abortion and after whatever experience, knew it was wrong.

    There are still groups that are not trying to stop them due to incest, rape, etc.. I support those, as well as the ones that don't block entrances.

    Whatever the reason, whatever ones belief, everone is trying to push their agenda. Religion is just an 'excuse' used to not listen to the right side (lol get the double meaning), or as an excuse so people don't have to think for themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Many who claim to be prolife are anti-choice, because to me being pro-life means helping someone (them being pregnant women) get food, shelter, etc. However, the pro-choice people aren't "pro-abortion". I'm quite disgusted with the rightwingers who use that, because it's not true. No one is pro abortion. Abortion is and should be a matter of choice.

    Studies show that the majority of those who started anti choice groups are in fact men. Operation Rescue was formed by Randall Terry, a person who thinks it's just fine to murder abortion doctors. He was later divorced by his first wife (probably because of abuse). His son later came out. Terry is a known chauvinist. Same things are known of James Dobson (founder of Focus on the Family), Jerry Falwell's group and all of these other thugs. These people aren't prolife, they are anti choice.

    I have no problem with the groups that are truly pro-life. The ones that think abortion is wrong, but help pregnant women in need. These people don't protest at abortion clinics, and give time/money to help women. I don't agree with them, but I knew a few like this and their hearts was in the right place. Sadly, I don't think these people are the majority. The point is abortion is legal and should stay legal.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    What they did was no different than what other groups had done, were doing, and doing after. So what if they had a different rationale. While we can all agree (I hope) that slavery is wrong, but it is unfair to condemn a society because society is different now.
    Oh please, society is different now? You do know what's going on in Darfur right? I don't see anyone marching in there to save those ppl, or stop the genocide. It's barely news. And while I realize this isn't bc of the CC your idea that society is different or better now isn't true. We just like to think we are. There are all sorts of things going on that prove society hasn't changed a bit.

    Does it being no different from what other groups are doing or have done make it ok?


    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    And whether or not the CC has antiquated beliefs doesn't change the fact that the CC has helped many people (longer than PPs 100 years).

    And regardless of the CC views and nonsense (OP) they have done more good too.

    Yes, condemning ppl to death because they're a different religion certainly has done a lot of good in the world. As has condemning devout believers to the fiery depths of "hell" because they didn't say enough hail mary's. The OP does nothing but prove that. Excommunicating a 9 yr old girl for an abortion but not the father for the rape of that 9 yr old girl definitely does that little girl a lot of good. Not only does she no longer have a priest to help her through her time of need, she can now no longer feel that god loves her or wants her either. +1 to the CC for another satisfied customer.
    Last edited by JayATee; 03-13-2009 at 02:46 PM.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    ^^^ Well, he also said that my therapist respecting my confidentiality in regards to a consensual relationship is someone on par with, say, the CC locking me in up in a Magdalene Asylum on suspicion of pre-marital sex and forcing me to do backbreaking work for the rest of my life. He's not being rational.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    As Katherine Hepburn put it so eloquently " Nature is what we were put here to rise above"

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by JayATee View Post
    Oh please, society is different now?
    The 14th, 15th, 16th and 17th Centuries called, they said you missed the Renaissance.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayATee View Post
    You do know what's going on in Darfur right? I don't see anyone marching in there to save those ppl, or stop the genocide. It's barely news. And while I realize this isn't bc of the CC your idea that society is different or better now isn't true. We just like to think we are. There are all sorts of things going on that prove society hasn't changed a bit.

    Does it being no different from what other groups are doing or have done make it ok?
    Darfur lolololol A cause celeb for the self righteous. Where were you to condemn the Northern Islamic Sudanese when they went into the Southern nonIslamic Sudan. The fight still goes on, almost 30 years in this latest round. Why no protest? How about Cambodia, Zimbabwe, and on and on. What about the Kurds?

    We did improve but at a certain point IMO we started regressing. I suppose that's what happens when it's do what you want and lack of societal norms/ standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayATee View Post
    Yes, condemning ppl to death because they're a different religion certainly has done a lot of good in the world. As has condemning devout believers to the fiery depths of "hell" because they didn't say enough hail mary's. The OP does nothing but prove that. Excommunicating a 9 yr old girl for an abortion but not the father for the rape of that 9 yr old girl definitely does that little girl a lot of good. Not only does she no longer have a priest to help her through her time of need, she can now no longer feel that god loves her or wants her either. +1 to the CC for another satisfied customer.
    It is not just the CC, you are making it seem as they are and have been the only ones to do this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvia View Post
    ^^^ Well, he also said that my therapist respecting my confidentiality in regards to a consensual relationship is someone on par with, say, the CC locking me in up in a Magdalene Asylum on suspicion of pre-marital sex and forcing me to do backbreaking work for the rest of my life. He's not being rational.
    By therapist I assume the PP person. If you were 17 and your b/f college age, IF IF IF it was illegal, it would have been a misdemeanor, but a felony if he was with a 13 y/o. You don't think he should be reported in that situation?

    Where are you from, it sounds like the stuf the CC was doing in Ireland.
    Last edited by glambman; 03-13-2009 at 07:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    The 14th, 15th, 16th and 17th Centuries called, they said you missed the Renaissance.
    ^^^This is one of the stupidest statements I've ever heard.

    You're right, mass genocide and religous persecution only happened BEFORE the Renaissance, afterwards society had been "enlightened" and everyone lived in peace and harmony....

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    Darfur lolololol A cause celeb for the self righteous. Where were you to condemn the Northern Islamic Sudanese when they went into the Southern nonIslamic Sudan. The fight still goes on, almost 30 years in this latest round. Why no protest? How about Cambodia, Zimbabwe, and on and on. What about the Kurds?

    We did improve but at a certain point IMO we started regressing. I suppose that's what happens when it's do what you want and lack of societal norms/ standards.
    LoL, you just proved my point for me. Ty.

    Do what you want societal norms/standards? Who sets the standards? The same churches that are ok with pedophiles for clergyman and fathers that rape their children??



    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    It is not just the CC, you are making it seem as they are and have been the only ones to do this.
    No I never said they're the only ones, I asked if it was ok bc they're not the only ones. Answer? No, it doesn't make it anymore ok.
    Last edited by JayATee; 03-14-2009 at 01:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    What they did was no different than what other groups had done, were doing, and doing after. So what if they had a different rationale. While we can all agree (I hope) that slavery is wrong, but it is unfair to condemn a society because society is different now.
    Slaughtering innocent women and children is wrong no matter when it was done. Same with slavery.


    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post

    But the thing is, is that PP was started because of racist views.
    No, it was started to help women. How is providing contraception to women racist?


    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post

    And whether or not the CC has antiquated beliefs doesn't change the fact that the CC has helped many people (longer than PPs 100 years).

    And regardless of the CC views and nonsense (OP) they have done more good too.
    The Catholic Church has harmed a lot more people than they've helped, and continues to harm people. They oppose contraception, including the use of condoms to prevent AID's. They protect priests who rape children. They have enslaved teenage girls. The Church's inquisition tortured and killed countless people. In addition, the inquisition would kidnap Jewish children and raise them as Catholics. The Church has burned countless people at the stake for "heresey". I've seen one estimate of over a million people.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    I am a Catholic but I have been looking more at Red Road instead. Seems to be more open which is what I like. This is very sad to read.





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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Slaughtering innocent women and children is wrong no matter when it was done. Same with slavery.

    Today, in most circumstances, yes. But geez, we're talking about hundreds and thousands of years..

    No, it was started to help women. How is providing contraception to women racist?

    This is like saying the Nazi movement was started to restore a little dignity to Germany.

    The Catholic Church has harmed a lot more people than they've helped, and continues to harm people. They oppose contraception, including the use of condoms to prevent AID's. They protect priests who rape children. They have enslaved teenage girls. The Church's inquisition tortured and killed countless people. In addition, the inquisition would kidnap Jewish children and raise them as Catholics. The Church has burned countless people at the stake for "heresey". I've seen one estimate of over a million people.

    blah blah blah blah blah You cannot judge a society that existed hundreds of years ago by the standards of today. Yes, they have done wrong things and things wrong. Get to today, the protection of priests is abysmal. The opposition to contraceptives is a choice based on what they believe. Who cares if it based on religion. Are you going to discount anyone who has opinions and morals beliefs based on religion.
    ..........................
    Last edited by glambman; 03-14-2009 at 11:59 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    You keep saying we shouldn't judge the CC on past acts within current society, but you are doing it for PP. PP, regardless of the founder's beliefs way back then, is now helping prevent unwanted pregnancies mostly for women in lower socio-economic standing, the very class of women you castigate for having more children than they can afford. So, uh, put down that rock, please.

    As for PP protecting criminals, I can go confess all sorts of atrocities to a priest and he is bound by The Church to keep that in confidentiality, and The Church also has been known to provide sanctuary for many people wanted for crimes actively providing food and shelter for them.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    In an age when we have the collective knowledge and wisdom of mankind available at the touch of a button, the ignorance being perpetuated by the worlds biggest organised religions is just....astonishing.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    DE, the CC wasn't organized in the way it became and is. A hundred years is still modern.

    The 3rd evolution of the KKK (started in '46) is a kinder gentler klan. Maybe they only want basic human rights for caucasians.

    Confessions (as the CC does) are not Biblical, just man's (or CC) procedures. Doesn't make it right.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Like it or not, abortion removes (usually) healthy living tissue and kills it or lets it die. That is the reality. We don"t let doctors go around and remove healthy gallbladders. There has to be a sound MEDICAL reason to do it. So for me, there has to be a sound medical reason for an abortion . I include removal of the product of rape or incest as a "sound medical reason". Pregnancy should not be a "punishment" for an innocent victim.

    But in this day and age of Sex Ed. and easy access to birth control, including "morning after" pills and "Plan B" how can abortion be otherwise justified ? Killing an innocent life just to exercise "dominion" over one's body ? Why stop there ? Why not let mothers kill their babies if they prove to be "inconvenient" ?

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Slaughtering innocent women and children is wrong no matter when it was done. Same with slavery.



    No, it was started to help women. How is providing contraception to women racist?




    The Catholic Church has harmed a lot more people than they've helped, and continues to harm people. They oppose contraception, including the use of condoms to prevent AID's. They protect priests who rape children. They have enslaved teenage girls. The Church's inquisition tortured and killed countless people. In addition, the inquisition would kidnap Jewish children and raise them as Catholics. The Church has burned countless people at the stake for "heresey". I've seen one estimate of over a million people.
    Hmmmm. It's a close call whether the CC has helped more people than it has harmed. I'd expand it to include almost ALL religions.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Like it or not, abortion removes (usually) healthy living tissue and kills it or lets it die. That is the reality. We don"t let doctors go around and remove healthy gallbladders. There has to be a sound MEDICAL reason to do it. So for me, there has to be a sound medical reason for an abortion . I include removal of the product of rape or incest as a "sound medical reason". Pregnancy should not be a "punishment" for an innocent victim.

    But in this day and age of Sex Ed. and easy access to birth control, including "morning after" pills and "Plan B" how can abortion be otherwise justified ? Killing an innocent life just to exercise "dominion" over one's body ? Why stop there ? Why not let mothers kill their babies if they prove to be "inconvenient" ?
    It's not only whether or not there's sex ed, or pills, or condoms, or any other pregnancy prevention out there to help someone not get pregnant. It's the circumstances to which a baby may be born. It's the quality of life that baby may have. It's weighing all options and knowing the outcome wont be good for mother or child if the pregnancy isn't terminanted. You as a male, can not possibly know what a female may go through during a pregnancy. Thank god there are still ppl out there who recognize a woman's right to choice. That is what it means to be pro-choice. It means, women get to choose, regardless of whether or not other ppl agree, I get to choose what happens to me, my body and my child. You have no idea what may constitute a woman's decision to end a pregnancy, and since you can't possibly ever know, you really can't pass judgement or even truly have an opinion. Until you walk in someone elses shoes you can never know their motivations, especially since you can't ever find yourself pregnant.
    Last edited by JayATee; 03-14-2009 at 07:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    ^^^That reminds me of an old saying: Before you judge or disagree with someone, walk a mile in their shoes. Then, if they get ugly about it, you'll be a mile away, and you'll have their shoes. hehe.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    There has to be a sound MEDICAL reason to do it. So for me, there has to be a sound medical reason for an abortion . I include removal of the product of rape or incest as a "sound medical reason". Pregnancy should not be a "punishment" for an innocent victim.
    When should pregnancy ever be a "punishment?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    As Katherine Hepburn put it so eloquently " Nature is what we were put here to rise above"

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post

    Confessions (as the CC does) are not Biblical, just man's (or CC) procedures. Doesn't make it right.

    How is this relevant? Where does the bible even enter into it? I thought we were discussing the CC and their actions, not what they should or shouldn't be doing according to the bible, but what they actually ARE doing. In which case, How do do you justify pointing the finger at PP, and excusing the CC for doing the exact same thing?

    You seem confused as to what it is exactly you're trying to defend.
    Last edited by Elvia; 03-14-2009 at 07:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    As Katherine Hepburn put it so eloquently " Nature is what we were put here to rise above"

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    ^^^That reminds me of an old saying: Before you judge or disagree with someone, walk a mile in their shoes. Then, if they get ugly about it, you'll be a mile away, and you'll have their shoes. hehe.

    Hahahahaha!

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    Slaughtering innocent women and children is wrong no matter when it was done. Same with slavery.

    Today, in most circumstances, yes. But geez, we're talking about hundreds and thousands of years..
    No dear, the 30's and 40's weren't hundreds and thousands of years ago. And the CC did nothing but look the other way as millions of innocents were slaughtered in the most unimaginable, ghastly ways.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post

    The 3rd evolution of the KKK (started in '46) is a kinder gentler klan. Maybe they only want basic human rights for caucasians.

    Do you know anything about recent American history? You're not aware of the civil rights workers murdered by the Klan in the 60's or the African-American churches that were blown up?

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    It's ridiculous comparisons anyway. Yeah, PP is just like the KKK. They are just like the Nazis. Please.

    Henry Ford was incredibly racist and a Nazi sympathizer. Does that make the Ford Motors of today a "racist" company? Of course not, when all they're doing is selling cars.
    Last edited by Elvia; 03-14-2009 at 10:35 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    As Katherine Hepburn put it so eloquently " Nature is what we were put here to rise above"

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Like it or not, abortion removes (usually) healthy living tissue and kills it or lets it die. That is the reality. We don"t let doctors go around and remove healthy gallbladders. There has to be a sound MEDICAL reason to do it. So for me, there has to be a sound medical reason for an abortion . I include removal of the product of rape or incest as a "sound medical reason". Pregnancy should not be a "punishment" for an innocent victim.

    But in this day and age of Sex Ed. and easy access to birth control, including "morning after" pills and "Plan B" how can abortion be otherwise justified ? Killing an innocent life just to exercise "dominion" over one's body ? Why stop there ? Why not let mothers kill their babies if they prove to be "inconvenient" ?
    I have heard the pro-abortion side use the term tissue mass before, but this is the first time I have heard it used in the other way. WOW and a big +1

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvia View Post
    When should pregnancy ever be a "punishment?"
    Why should a developing child be punished when they haven't done anything worthy of punishment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvia View Post
    How is this relevant? Where does the bible even enter into it? I thought we were discussing the CC and their actions, not what they should or shouldn't be doing according to the bible, but what they actually ARE doing. In which case, How do do you justify pointing the finger at PP, and excusing the CC for doing the exact same thing?

    You seem confused as to what it is exactly you're trying to defend.
    There is a difference between the priest scandal of today and the Inquisition, don't you think. While both are wrong, the Inquisition ended in the mid1800's.

    This is the reason why there will never be peace in the Middle East, people hold on to things that happened long ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by JayATee View Post
    No dear, the 30's and 40's weren't hundreds and thousands of years ago. And the CC did nothing but look the other way as millions of innocents were slaughtered in the most unimaginable, ghastly ways.
    I didn't say the 30's and 40's were not modern. Germany in WW2? Is that what you are referring to. What about the Japanese atrocities? Where is the condemnation of Shinto and Buddhism? Will you condemn those two religions just as you condemn the CC for looking the other way?

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Do you know anything about recent American history? You're not aware of the civil rights workers murdered by the Klan in the 60's or the African-American churches that were blown up?
    The 3rd evolution has not been anywhere as violent as the first. And as their pathetic existence has gone on (in the 3rd evolution), they have been further sissified.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    Why should a developing child be punished when they haven't done anything worthy of punishment?
    Oh please. Bottom line, not your body, not your choice. You have no right to choose what circumstances a woman may or may not have her baby under. It is completely and totally ridiculous for you to assume anything about a woman's circumstances especially considering the fact that you're not a woman so you could never even remotely understand.


    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    This is the reason why there will never be peace in the Middle East, people hold on to things that happened long ago.
    Bull. The bombs raining down in the middle east right now have NOTHING to do with ppl holding grudges from long ago. Another completely mis-informed statement.



    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    I didn't say the 30's and 40's were not modern. Germany in WW2? Is that what you are referring to. What about the Japanese atrocities? Where is the condemnation of Shinto and Buddhism? Will you condemn those two religions just as you condemn the CC for looking the other way?
    Yup. But since the topic is about the Catholic Church I'm keeping to the things the CC has done, or not done, or the things they've looked the other way for, or the ways in which they've failed or hurt society altogether.

    However, all you've done, by continuously bringing up the injustices to other groups is prove my point over and over that society hasn't changed one bit. Not to mention that your constant "they're not the only ones" statements really don't do much to help your case. Just bc lots of other religions are guilty of the same sins, doesn't make it anymore ok.

    Your historical accounts and comparisons are way off. Do some research.
    Last edited by JayATee; 03-14-2009 at 10:23 PM.

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