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Thread: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvia View Post
    And by the way, as a friend of mine who came over to visit just pointed out...what exactly is "medical" about this? The fetus that is conceived in rape is not necessarily any less healthy, or any more of a strain on the woman's body, than the fetus that was conceived during consensual sex. You're making a judgement, and that's fine, but there's nothing "medical" about it.
    We have to draw lines. That is the essence of a civilized and civil society.

    There IS a medical aspect as for nine months the victim has to carry the product of the attack. Logic alone says that it might retard the healing process and there are other possible medical reasons to remove such a fetus. Of course, the victim is free to decide to go through with the pregnancy, if that's what she wants to do. In cases of incest, we ALL should hope there is an abortion. Do we really need to voluntarily supply ourselves with more imbeciles ?

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by rayna View Post
    i would take the pro life movement a lot more seriously if it adressed the causes and consequences of uwanted pregnancy in a constructive way instead of constantly criticizing women for getting pregnant.

    within the pro life movement their tends to be a huge issue with sex ed and birth control and we all know how effective "abstinence only" sex ed is, lol. the ones who pay for this are the women who accidentally get pregnant, not the men they had sex with.

    also, as said before in this thread there is an almost total lack of concern for the baby once it is born. maybe instead of picketing abortion clinics and lecturing women, pro-lifers should put that energy into creating group homes for unwanted babies, organising adoption programs or actually adopting themselves.
    This is a FAIR argument and one of my own pet peeves with the CC and Religious Right.

    Abstinence Only has been thoroughly documented to be a total and complete failure. The U.S. is a joke compared to the rest of the developed world when it comes to rate of out of wedlock birth. We need MORE sex-ed and MORE birth control. Not less.

    Some "Pro-Lifers" do put their money where their mouth is and do support programs that help unwed mothers. Some also adopt themselves.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    In some cases it might be a very effective learning experience. It certainly used to be when single motherhood was not something to be proud of.

    I'm willing to let rape and incest victims CHOOSE not to have to be pregnant. There was NO CONSENT on their part.


    Those evil women! Imagine, having sex! We must teach them a lesson!

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post
    Actually, quiet a number of our founders were opposed to slavery, but knew it would prevent our nation from being united. They also knew that it's day was coming to an end.
    The father of our country, George Washington, advocated slavery and was a slave-holder himself. So was Thomas Jefferson.

    At the time our country was founded, nobody knew slavery was coming to end.

    As Pixie said, this thread has gone all over the board. We're discussing the Catholic Church's reaction to a 9 year old rape victim getting an abortion. Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood have nothing to do with this.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    Those evil women! Imagine, having sex! We must teach them a lesson!
    NO. I am talking about foolish and careless people of BOTH sexes having UNPROTECTED sex. Afaic the men are just as responsible as the women.

    In what other aspect of life are you willing to permit careless people to avoid the consequences of their mistakes ? People who fail to wear seat belts can be barred from recovering damages if they are injured in auto accidents. What about people who drink and drive ? How about cell phone talkers who get into auto accidents ?

    A HARVARD University Study confirmed by a PRINCETON University study ( two hotbeds of right wing conservative thought and scholarship ) have shown that the primary cause of poverty in the U.S. is UNWED motherhood. The rate of out of wedlock birth continues to climb. For African American women it is up to 70%.
    What do you think explains that ? How about social acceptance ? Deemphasizing shame DOES have some negative consequences.

    I am NOT arguing for the forced wearing of "Scarlet Letters" or bringing back involuntary confinement to "Homes for Unwed Mothers".

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    The father of our country, George Washington, advocated slavery and was a slave-holder himself. So was Thomas Jefferson.

    At the time our country was founded, nobody knew slavery was coming to end.

    As Pixie said, this thread has gone all over the board. We're discussing the Catholic Church's reaction to a 9 year old rape victim getting an abortion. Margaret Sanger and Planned Parenthood have nothing to do with this.
    Jefferson was NOT present when our Constitution was written. He was in Paris.

    Washington, M A D I S O N , Mason and even Franklin all took a dive on slavery.
    Some of them even knew they were leaving a ticking time bomb behind by not advocating abolition and so providing in the Constitution. At the time, support for slavery in the South had NOT hardened and strengthened as it would just a generation later. Many Northern states still permitted slavery ( N.Y. & N.J. ). Cotton was not yet "King" in the South. We were not yet the prime supplier of cotton to Great Britain and France. Most Southerners and in fact the overwhelming majority of Americans did NOT own slaves. Abolition would have affected very few Americans directly in 1789.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    I hope you pro lifers never get a tape worm! I mean, it's alive, it's healthy and you should have taken responsibility and not eaten under cooked food. It's a punishment for being so careless and eating without proper precautions, which is about as natural as sex after all. You'd be lucky really, it's never going to come out of your body and expect love and financial support or anything.

    But seriously, I'm 16 weeks pregnant myself and that's pretty much what it feels like. It's more like a medical condition than having a living human being just hanging out in my body waiting to be born. It was planned, and I want it and all, but it's kind of a parasite. A cute one, but still it doesn't have any right to be in me if I don't want it there.

    For the men folk that will never have the privilege of being pregnant, let me explain. Human females don't just lay an egg and walk away. It's 9 months of being in a serious medical condition that ranges from being inconvenient at best, and painful at worst. Nausea, vomiting, constipation, back pain, swelling, mood swings and so on. For any other ailment you would get treatment that ended those symptoms. It's not like it's an easy state to be in. And then there's the whole body distortion, that ends some careers - or just the new limitations that make it impossible to continue with some others. There's a reason to end any pregnancy.

    As for the rest of this off topic non sense, PP prevents many abortions with access to birth control. And they help women who need them with access to them. I don't care if the founder drowned kittens everyday, she still had a good idea that helped people. Maybe the inventor of penicillin had actually intended to use it as a weapon of biological warfare, doesn't change that he did a good thing in a round about way.

    And with all that, I'm going to rage quit this thread, lol. I'll probably want to take my parasite comment back after I see the first ultrasound on Friday, or feel that first kick. But, I'm in a different situation after all - it's a wanted pregnancy. And every one of them should be. Kudos to the mom of the 9 year old, she did the right thing and protected her child. It's not like churches have bouncers, they can still go to mass and be Catholic even if one old dude doesn't think so.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Perry View Post
    I hope you pro lifers never get a tape worm! I mean, it's alive, it's healthy and you should have taken responsibility and not eaten under cooked food. It's a punishment for being so careless and eating without proper precautions, which is about as natural as sex after all. You'd be lucky really, it's never going to come out of your body and expect love and financial support or anything.

    A tapeworm is a parasite in the body, a child is not.


    For the men folk that will never have the privilege of being pregnant, let me explain. Human females don't just lay an egg and walk away. It's 9 months of being in a serious medical condition that ranges from being inconvenient at best, and painful at worst. Nausea, vomiting, constipation, back pain, swelling, mood swings and so on. For any other ailment you would get treatment that ended those symptoms. It's not like it's an easy state to be in. And then there's the whole body distortion, that ends some careers - or just the new limitations that make it impossible to continue with some others. There's a reason to end any pregnancy.

    Since we are just animals, there are a number of animals where the male takes care of the "eggs" to birth. Sea horses, Antarctic breed of penguins. So, by default.

    A pregnancy is not an ailment.


    Maybe the inventor of penicillin had actually intended to use it as a weapon of biological warfare, doesn't change that he did a good thing in a round about way.

    Penicillin was actually discovered by accident. A scientist noticed a mold that was inhibiting fungus, he studied it further. Nothing illicit about it.

    And with all that, I'm going to rage quit this thread, lol. I'll probably want to take my parasite comment back after I see the first ultrasound on Friday, or feel that first kick. But, I'm in a different situation after all -
    Do you know if your going to get a 4d sonogram? Awesome they are.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    ^^ I'm just getting the standard one this time to check for twins and make sure everything is going well. Most hospitals don't do 3 or 4 ds, they're actually way more powerful which is a concern. But I'm going to a place that does them anyway when I get far along enough to tell the sex. And so my mom and Mr. Perry can tag along and cry, lol.

    But, this time I mean it, RAGE QUIT!

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    I am a 1 of 2 (twin sis), and I was hiding when they did the ultrasound. I'm sure the technology has improves greatly since then.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Proving that he is, if nothing else, consistent, Pope Benedict has stated that condoms are NOT the answer in helping to control AIDS in Africa. Worse yet, he said they were "NOT effective".
    His first statement was just plain unrealistic. The second was just plain WRONG !

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    In Brazil, a 9 year old girl was repeatedly raped by her stepfather and as a result, became pregnant. The girl's mother took her to a hospital for an abortion. The Catholic Church's response was to excommunicate the girl's mother and doctor for the abortion, even though the girl could have died if she were to carry the babies (twins) to full term. While the church excommunicated the mother and doctor, they did not excommunicate the stepfather who raped the girl, since his crime was not as "heinous", according to the church.

    This event ( and that's the nicest word I can find ) is beyond unspeakable.
    A nine year old GIRL.. a child, not a woman. With her own mind, her own experience. A child.
    No matter what your views are on the subject of abortion and the right to it. This seriously jacked up situation is simply put wrong.

    Again and again the Church.. Whom is suppose to be stability for faith is crumbling. Catholics everywhere should be appalled at these recent actions.
    There is a reason the Mother Church is called the "great whore."

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Mr. Glambman,
    If I seem a bit emotional you will have to forgive me. I could only get to about the 4th page or so on my blackberry before your willful ignorance and chovanism almost brought me to tears. I'm so pissed I could spit fire right now. The thing is that I agree with you when you say abortion is unnessacery in todays age because of the morning after pill and all... But NOBODY has the right to tell anybody else what to do with their body! There is nothing equal about baby making to begin with. And because you're an uncle (so is my 14 year old brother) / babysitter you know nothing about being a parent. You have no right to put your 2 cent in. These girls are talking about the physical aspects of parenting what about the emotional and finanicals part that go with the physical. I could never imagine myself having an abortion but to look down on somebody without trying to understand their side is just as wrong.
    As a black woman or a woman period I have seen far too many men get up and walk away from babies and mothers. My own father owes upwards of $70000 for his 2 kids both in our 20s. He'll tell you himself he hasn't paid child support since the early 90s. My daughters father only paid for child care and provided insurance. Why don't you do some research at least before you open your mouth. Of course you not having to supply anything of this nature that would sound ok to you. Why don't you do some math 800 dollars isn't shit when child care is 600 a month! Pull ups come less then 10 a bag and are about $10. An emergancy room visit is $100 dollars after insurence is paid for. School supplies, food,clothes,toys, doctors visits etc. I know there are also single fathers out there but its hard for a couple to raise a child how dare you complain about what someone wants to go through when you've never experienced it yourself. Have you ever heard of the baby blues (post pardum depression) women kill their child when they can't handle the pressure or maybe they should donate more kids to the wonderful world of foster care and pray they get adapted by a family that's not in it for the$$$. You know you strike me as the type to shake your finger at mothers on welfare without looking at their situation as well. You seem like those old people stuck in their ways and no matter what you say they're right and you're wrong so I'll calm down now because its a waste of time explaining to you.
    Before I go I will say I don't understand women who have 3 5+ abortions its not suppose to be a form of birth control but I'm not looking down on them I just don't understand and maybe somebody can explain their situation to me.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by wish View Post
    You in italics.
    before your willful ignorance and chovanism almost brought me to tears. I'm so pissed I could spit fire right now.

    Ignorance and chauvinism......lol That's not me.

    [i]The thing is that I agree with you when you say abortion is unnessacery in todays age because of the morning after pill and all...

    I didn't say that (Eric did), but I agree with the sentiment.

    But NOBODY has the right to tell anybody else what to do with their body!

    This is where technicalities come into play....If I am going to be supporting them (through taxes or otherwise), then I do.

    There is nothing equal about baby making to begin with.

    I never said there was anything equal, just that it takes two to Tango.

    And because you're an uncle (so is my 14 year old brother) / babysitter you know nothing about being a parent. You have no right to put your 2 cent in. These girls are talking about the physical aspects of parenting what about the emotional and finanicals part that go with the physical.

    Just an Uncle/ babysitter? You didn't read what I said. I have physically, emotionally, and financially provided for her, since birth.

    but to look down on somebody without trying to understand their side is just as wrong.

    I never said anything of the sort.

    As a black woman or a woman period I have seen far too many men get up and walk away from babies and mothers.

    As an old white man, I have also seen people leave (male and female).

    Have you ever heard of the baby blues (post pardum depression) women kill their child when they can't handle the pressure or maybe

    And you can get depression by having a bad diet as well as a million other things. Some people can't handle it coming from any of those things, and do extreme things, doesn't make it the standard.

    they should donate more kids to the wonderful world of foster care and pray they get adapted by a family that's not in it for the$$$.

    Our Federal Govt spends more money for children on foster care, so that's where the state sends the kids (and has an incentive to keep them there).

    You know you strike me as the type to shake your finger at mothers on welfare without looking at their situation as well.

    Nope, but I have seen first hand the ones that "use" the system.

    You seem like those old people stuck in their ways and no matter what you say they're right and you're wrong so I'll calm down now because its a waste of time explaining to you.

    Stuck in my ways...sure. Right no matter what...nope (I was wrong once when I thought I was wrong).
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by glambman View Post

    But NOBODY has the right to tell anybody else what to do with their body!

    This is where technicalities come into play....If I am going to be supporting them (through taxes or otherwise), then I do.
    How are you supporting women who choose to get abortions? Women who get abortions either pay for it themselves or their private insurer pays for it. It's against the law for government money to be used for abortions.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    And since glambman's tax dollars are used to fund the military, I guess he demands a direct line to the Pentagon, too? Even more directly, since you are providing emotional and financial support to your niece, do you insist on dictating to her mother unsolicited rules by which she must be raised?

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    How are you supporting women who choose to get abortions? Women who get abortions either pay for it themselves or their private insurer pays for it. It's against the law for government money to be used for abortions.


    I was going to ask the same exact thing here. I have had 2 abortions. One medical and one surgical. I paid for them in full out of my own pocket. I donated money to the cause for women to have these rights. I fought on the sides of women that need medical care like this even if they pay for it themselves.

    So no, you don't have the right to tell someone what to do with their body. Women are now having complete medical rights that they need even in situations like this. And I will fight people like you that want to control what women do with their bodies or feel they have "the right" to say what they can and can't do.


    Freedom isn't free but damn it we fight really hard for what we have, and as a woman - I will never give up the fight.





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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    How are you supporting women who choose to get abortions? Women who get abortions either pay for it themselves or their private insurer pays for it. It's against the law for government money to be used for abortions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty Ernie View Post
    And since glambman's tax dollars are used to fund the military, I guess he demands a direct line to the Pentagon, too? Even more directly, since you are providing emotional and financial support to your niece, do you insist on dictating to her mother unsolicited rules by which she must be raised?
    Abortion is a separate issue. Electing officials who put stipulations/ restrictions on govt funding (like no cigs and alkie with food stamps).

    No I don't, but if she were being raised like other kids out there (even some of her friends), damn right I would step in.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Snark View Post
    But then I suppose the sort of people who write this kind of crap generally don't allow their opinions to be tainted by things like "facts" and "reality".
    Distortion becomes somehow pure in its wildness
    The note that began all can also destroy

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    I don't think abortion should be the issue that it is right now. There is too much grey area.

    I feel that a fetus is just a fetus, and until it develops a certain amount... it is not a baby.

    Maybe by saying that, i sound cruel... but there should be no grey matter in deciding whats right about abortion or whats wrong.

    It doesn't matter if the woman is raped or it is consensual, if they decided to terminate thier pregnancy before the fetus becomes developed, they should have the right to do so.

    and as for the "tax" dollars that some people on this forum are so worried about. It costs 500 dollars to give a woman an abortion. It costs 100 times that much to put a child in the system... and it's still your tax dollars

    and then live with it on your conscious (or not...depending on what type of person you are) that you advocated putting thousands more children into the system where they will have a very high chance of being raped and abused...





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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    How are you supporting women who choose to get abortions? Women who get abortions either pay for it themselves or their private insurer pays for it. It's against the law for government money to be used for abortions.
    Depends where you live. Some states subsidize them or subsidize groups that help pay for them. Most do not. The Feds won't pay for them UNLESS they are MEDICALLY necessary.

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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by wish View Post
    Mr. Glambman,
    If I seem a bit emotional you will have to forgive me. I could only get to about the 4th page or so on my blackberry before your willful ignorance and chovanism almost brought me to tears. I'm so pissed I could spit fire right now. The thing is that I agree with you when you say abortion is unnessacery in todays age because of the morning after pill and all... But NOBODY has the right to tell anybody else what to do with their body! There is nothing equal about baby making to begin with. And because you're an uncle (so is my 14 year old brother) / babysitter you know nothing about being a parent. You have no right to put your 2 cent in. These girls are talking about the physical aspects of parenting what about the emotional and finanicals part that go with the physical. I could never imagine myself having an abortion but to look down on somebody without trying to understand their side is just as wrong.
    As a black woman or a woman period I have seen far too many men get up and walk away from babies and mothers. My own father owes upwards of $70000 for his 2 kids both in our 20s. He'll tell you himself he hasn't paid child support since the early 90s. My daughters father only paid for child care and provided insurance. Why don't you do some research at least before you open your mouth. Of course you not having to supply anything of this nature that would sound ok to you. Why don't you do some math 800 dollars isn't shit when child care is 600 a month! Pull ups come less then 10 a bag and are about $10. An emergancy room visit is $100 dollars after insurence is paid for. School supplies, food,clothes,toys, doctors visits etc. I know there are also single fathers out there but its hard for a couple to raise a child how dare you complain about what someone wants to go through when you've never experienced it yourself. Have you ever heard of the baby blues (post pardum depression) women kill their child when they can't handle the pressure or maybe they should donate more kids to the wonderful world of foster care and pray they get adapted by a family that's not in it for the$$$. You know you strike me as the type to shake your finger at mothers on welfare without looking at their situation as well. You seem like those old people stuck in their ways and no matter what you say they're right and you're wrong so I'll calm down now because its a waste of time explaining to you.
    Before I go I will say I don't understand women who have 3 5+ abortions its not suppose to be a form of birth control but I'm not looking down on them I just don't understand and maybe somebody can explain their situation to me.
    I don't know about Glamb bit I am FAR from an absolutist. One reason I take the position I do is to counter the "any abortion, at any time, for any reason" extremists. Afaic, THEY are supporting infanticide.

    I'm probably going to surprise you and perhaps some others by saying that I do NOT care all that much about the "fetuses" as I do about society as a whole. Tolerating unecessary abortions makes us tolerant of other practices and procedures that cheapen LIFE. It never ceases to amaze me that some of the most virulent abortion opponents rabidly support the death penalty.

    If we could all agree or at least agree to abide a reasonably arbitrary line for abortions like permitting them during the First Trimester, I could go along with it. Just for the sake of domestic political peace. So could the overwhelming majority of Americans who recognize the issue as having a lot more nuance than most politicos in Washington. The trouble is we've let the extremists on BOTH sides drive the debate and they control the political endorsements and THE MONEY.

    In their heart of hearts, many Congressmen and Senators would try to find a reasonable compromise IF they could survive it politically. Unfortunately, almost no Democrat dares to defy P.P. , NARAL or NOW and no Republican dares to run counter to the CC or other religious Right to Lifers. On the other hand , there are also some who love to let the issue fester so that they can assume the role of "champion" of one side or the other. In other words, they NEVER want the issue resolved. They always want it out there.

    In the developed world we are the ONLY country that let it's elected political representatives take a dive on the issue. We let the Supreme Court decide it instead of the Congress and the state legislatures. Abortion is NOT the issue in other countries that it is here because ELECTED representatives decided the issue, not unelected judges.

    Much of your post supports MY argument that abortion is an easy "out" for irresponsible men. How you can you justify abortion because some men are Deadbeat Dads ? How would like it if one of these guys forced a woman to have an abortion who didn't want one ? Been known to happen. There are now Federal Laws that enforce child-support obligations.

  23. #147
    God/dess Elvia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    In some cases it might be a very effective learning experience. It certainly used to be when single motherhood was not something to be proud of.

    I'm willing to let rape and incest victims CHOOSE not to have to be pregnant. There was NO CONSENT on their part.

    THANK GOD we have these thoughtful men around to keep us from missing out on a valuable learning experience, huh ladies?

    And here I thought raising a child in poverty was a bad thing! Little did I know that was denying myself a valuable learning opportunity.
    Last edited by Elvia; 03-20-2009 at 02:06 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    As Katherine Hepburn put it so eloquently " Nature is what we were put here to rise above"

  24. #148
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    Default Re: Vatican: Abortion for rape -victim worse than raping a 9-year old

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    In some cases it might be a very effective learning experience. It certainly used to be when single motherhood was not something to be proud of.

    I'm willing to let rape and incest victims CHOOSE not to have to be pregnant. There was NO CONSENT on their part.
    I raised four kids, by myself. Thankyouveryfuckingmuch... and yes, I learned quite a bit. About men.

    And thanks! For the willingness to not let rape victims not be pregnant.
    That's big of you...
    So now I know my choices are set.

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