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Thread: Obama's Energy Secretary 'floats' carbon tariffs

  1. #26
    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obama's Energy Secretary 'floats' carbon tariffs

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    No, it's the conservative ideologues who are not interested in any determination of scientific validity of reduced CO2 emissions = reduced global warming. No matter what the evidence is, they're always going to deny it, because the solution might require them to go against their ideology.
    I for one, will admit that there is something to what you say. The Bush Administration not only lacked proper respect for science but was often contemptuous of same. The problem is that there IS a split in the scientific community over whether and to what extent carbon emissions are really affecting climate. There is NOT the overwhelming consensus that many proponents try to pretend that there is.

    My personal view is that the existing science shows that is more likely than not that carbon emissions are aggravating otherwise naturally occurring climate shifts and changes and that EVERYONE, all around the world,ought to reduce carbon emissions. But even if we, the U.S.A.,cut ours in half, we'll still have China and India burning coal. More importantly, we'll still have rain forest and wetland destruction world-wide which has been scientifically PROVEN to have profound climatalogical impact.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 04-06-2009 at 11:24 AM.

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    Banned Melonie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obama's Energy Secretary 'floats' carbon tariffs

    We'll all be able to feel great about ourselves and the U.S. and on an overall world-wide climatalogical basis , it won't make a damn bit of difference. Overall, world -wide carbon emissions will continue to increase no matter what the U.S. does or doesn't do.
    Well this is precisely the point. In the 'real world' enacting carbon taxes in the US / EU / Australia raises energy costs for all industries located in those countries. In turn, some portion of these industries will be shut down due to economic non-competitiveness and replaced with new production facilities in China / Asia / 3rd world countries that A. do not charge a similar carbon tax, as well as B. do not mandate pollution or energy efficiency standards that are anywhere near as high as those in the US / EU / Australia.

    So the end result will be that not only do the US / EU / Australia continue to lose industries / jobs / tax revenues / GDP to production facilities in China / Asia / 3rd world countries, but the amount of total carbon emissions / pollution emissions actually generated by the new China / Asia / 3rd world production facilities (which are essentially devoid of pollution and energy efficiency standards) to make the same amount of product will actually be higher than it used to be before the US / EU / Australian industries (which had some measure of pollution and energy efficiency standards in effect) closed down.

    An example of this phenomenon already exists re California air quality. California enacted some of the strictest pollution controls in the world ... and as a result drove out a major fraction of its industries, which were replaced by new chinese production facilities. As a result, California's actual emission of pollutants dropped drastically. However, several years later, California finds itself unable to comply with clean air standards despite the fact that California pollution emissions have never been lower. After turning university eggheads loose on the problem, the cause was traced to vastly increased levels of pollution now being generated in China and blown right back to California via the Pacific Trade Winds ! So California has given up those jobs, has given up those tax revenues, has given up that contribution to state GDP etc. but in fact has NOT improved their air quality sufficiently to meet US clean air standards. An analogous situation is going to apply at a national level with carbon taxes. Of course, unlike the pollution being blown back from China, it IS possible to intercept non-carbon taxed Chinese / Asian / 3rd world goods at US ports ... and impose a carbon tariff on them. However, all this does is increase retail prices that US customers must pay for imported items - it applies no direct incentive for companies in China / Asia / 3rd world countries to reduce their carbon emissions.
    Last edited by Melonie; 04-06-2009 at 08:12 AM.

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    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
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    Default Re: Obama's Energy Secretary 'floats' carbon tariffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Well this is precisely the point. In the 'real world' enacting carbon taxes in the US / EU / Australia raises energy costs for all industries located in those countries. In turn, some portion of these industries will be shut down due to economic non-competitiveness and replaced with new production facilities in China / Asia / 3rd world countries that A. do not charge a similar carbon tax, as well as B. do not mandate pollution or energy efficiency standards that are anywhere near as high as those in the US / EU / Australia.

    So the end result will be that not only do the US / EU / Australia continue to lose industries / jobs / tax revenues / GDP to production facilities in China / Asia / 3rd world countries, but the amount of total carbon emissions / pollution emissions actually generated by the new China / Asia / 3rd world production facilities (which are essentially devoid of pollution and energy efficiency standards) to make the same amount of product will actually be higher than it used to be before the US / EU / Australian industries (which had some measure of pollution and energy efficiency standards in effect) closed down.

    An example of this phenomenon already exists re California air quality. California enacted some of the strictest pollution controls in the world ... and as a result drove out a major fraction of its industries, which were replaced by new chinese production facilities. As a result, California's actual emission of pollutants dropped drastically. However, several years later, California finds itself unable to comply with clean air standards despite the fact that California pollution emissions have never been lower. After turning university eggheads loose on the problem, the cause was traced to vastly increased levels of pollution now being generated in China and blown right back to California via the Pacific Trade Winds ! So California has given up those jobs, has given up those tax revenues, has given up that contribution to state GDP etc. but in fact has NOT improved their air quality sufficiently to meet US clean air standards. An analogous situation is going to apply at a national level with carbon taxes. Of course, unlike the pollution being blown back from China, it IS possible to intercept non-carbon taxed Chinese / Asian / 3rd world goods at US ports ... and impose a carbon tariff on them. However, all this does is increase retail prices that US customers must pay for imported items - it applies no direct incentive for companies in China / Asia / 3rd world countries to reduce their carbon emissions.
    This is one of a number of perverse ironies presented by environmental extremism. We shut down polluting plants in this country; lose the jobs; AND the U.S. plant is replaced by a Chinese plant that is even dirtier and which sends the pollutants back here.

    Anyone who thinks that China, India and others is just going to cheerfully sit still and let the U.S. slap "carbon tariffs" on their goods without retaliating has gone beyond just simple wishful thinking.

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    Default Re: Obama's Energy Secretary 'floats' carbon tariffs

    Anyone who thinks that China, India and others is just going to cheerfully sit still and let the U.S. slap "carbon tariffs" on their goods without retaliating has gone beyond just simple wishful thinking.
    as in shorting John Deere while buying ADR's for Mahindra Tractor ? As in shorting GM (currently top selling imported vehicles in China BTW) and buying ADR's for Hyundai ? Indeed US export industries will be victims of a double whammy, since they will not only get hit with higher US energy costs when making products for export, but they will get hit with a countervailing Chinese import tariff to offset the carbon tariff imposed on Chinese imports at the US border !!!

  5. #30
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    Default Re: Obama's Energy Secretary 'floats' carbon tariffs

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    as in shorting John Deere while buying ADR's for Mahindra Tractor ? As in shorting GM (currently top selling imported vehicles in China BTW) and buying ADR's for Hyundai ? Indeed US export industries will be victims of a double whammy, since they will not only get hit with higher US energy costs when making products for export, but they will get hit with a countervailing Chinese import tariff to offset the carbon tariff imposed on Chinese imports at the US border !!!
    You allude to yet another political perversity. John Deere has laid off thousands of workers. Colombia is a major importer of their products and yet the Dems won't approve the U.S. - Colombia Free Trade Agreement.

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