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Thread: Obama = CEO of GM

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    Default Obama = CEO of GM

    I thought he was the POTUS but now he's the CEO of GM.

    He canned Rick Wagoner.
    Named his replacement.
    Prompted selection of a new Bd. of Directors.
    Rejected GM's reorganization plan.
    Set ANOTHER deadline for a new plan.

    All the while saying with a straight face: " The U.S. government has no interest in running GM ." Well, I guess he isn't as long as he doesn't bother with the cafeteria menu or the decor in the Ladie's Lounge.

    In actuality, of course, Obama IS running GM with TAXPAYER money rather than permit nature to take its course i.e. Chapter 11. The fact that he collected lavish contributions from the U.A.W. is OF COURSE not connected to this silliness. Let's keep it real and avoid petty partisan sniping.

    As I pointed out last year, one reason GM is being propped up is to enable it to market the Volt. A vehicle whose main purpose is to please several hundred automotive engineers currently serving in the U.S. Congress. Again, the fact that Congress has voted a $7500 tax credit for purchasers of such cars clearly demonstrates that their expertise is not limited to automotive engineering and manufacturing but also includes marketing.

    They MUST know something that everyone else does not. GM earns the lion's share of its profits from selling SUV's, trucks and pickups which "Barack and the Obamanations" have determined is contrary to actual consumer preferences for smaller and less crashworthy vehicles. For some reason they are ignoring plunging sales of hybrids ( W.S. J. 12/9/08 & L.A. Times 3/17/09).

    Perhaps they want GM to be more like Toyota which in February, 2009 sold 13,600 Tundra and Tacoma pickups and a whopping 7,232 Priuses. Toyota sells Priuses at a loss. They make tons of money selling pickups, SUV's and Lexuses. So do Ford and GM whose best selling and most profitable models happen to be vehicles that Americans want to buy. They simply don't want the vehicles that the proponents of industrial policy want them to want. The solution is obvious: Obama, Michelle and the kids have to do car commercials. And Pelosi, Waxman and Reid have to spend less time in Washington and more time in Detroit at the drawing boards and on the test tracks. It's a Win - Win - Win.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 04-07-2009 at 11:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    ^^^ did you see what CEO Obama had GM roll out today ?

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Hopefully, that doesn't portend future pace cars for Indy500

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    I'm guessing Obama is going to have to do a lot of things he would have preferred not to. However, a lot of people are depending on him to lead your nation out of the mess it was left in by incompetent people. He will have to think outside the very very small box some would like to put him in.

    GM, and the people who depend on that company for their living don't need the same old same old, and neither do the people of the United States of America.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    I am a registered Republican. I am a Republican Election Judge. I raised money for George W. Bush's reelection campaign in 2004. I raised money for Pat McCrory's election campaign and for every GOP candidate on the slate. I gave money to John McCain. So, I think my GOP credentials are solid.

    Now, with my credentials established, let me say I do not think Barak Obama is overstepping the proper role of government with GM. GM came begging to government for handouts. It is only right that the government put conditions on those handouts. There is no point in a taxpayer bailout if it is simply going to delay the inevitable. I don't think that is the case. GM is in terrible shape and if left on its own, it will go out of business. Not chapter 11, but out of business. And that kind of failure will take Ford down too. Perhaps even Toyota. Certainly it will destroy the US automaking business. That kind of economic disaster to prove some pureist point is not reasonable. The government's demands are a reasonable path toward solvency.

    Z

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    I'm guessing Obama is going to have to do a lot of things he would have preferred not to. However, a lot of people are depending on him to lead your nation out of the mess it was left in by incompetent people. He will have to think outside the very very small box some would like to put him in.

    GM, and the people who depend on that company for their living don't need the same old same old, and neither do the people of the United States of America.
    Just because Bush was an inarticulate incompetent does NOT mean Obama is competent just because he can construct an intelligent and intelligible sentence.

    I voted for Obama HOPING he would in fact be more competent than Bush. To date, there is little if any evidence that he is. Particularly on the economic front.

    The solution for GM is Chapter 11. Period. Instead Obama just continues to pump TAXPAYER money into a failed corporation. Why ? P O L I T I C S ! Chapter 11 means the union contracts get torn up.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    The solution for GM is Chapter 11. Period. Instead Obama just continues to pump TAXPAYER money into a failed corporation. Why ? P O L I T I C S ! Chapter 11 means the union contracts get torn up.
    Wrong again. Chapter 11 was long ago amended to prohibit the bankruptcy court from abrogating contracts entered into pursuant to a collective bargaining agreement.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Zofia View Post
    I am a registered Republican. I am a Republican Election Judge. I raised money for George W. Bush's reelection campaign in 2004. I raised money for Pat McCrory's election campaign and for every GOP candidate on the slate. I gave money to John McCain. So, I think my GOP credentials are solid.

    Now, with my credentials established, let me say I do not think Barak Obama is overstepping the proper role of government with GM. GM came begging to government for handouts. It is only right that the government put conditions on those handouts. There is no point in a taxpayer bailout if it is simply going to delay the inevitable. I don't think that is the case. GM is in terrible shape and if left on its own, it will go out of business. Not chapter 11, but out of business. And that kind of failure will take Ford down too. Perhaps even Toyota. Certainly it will destroy the US automaking business. That kind of economic disaster to prove some pureist point is not reasonable. The government's demands are a reasonable path toward solvency.

    Z
    Respectfully, I think you are letting wishes father your thoughts. Why are we bailing GM out at all ? You said it yourself : "There is no point in a taxpayer bailout if it is simply going to delay the inevitable." GM has now come up with TWO "Plans" neither of which do much to address the root causes of its problems and both of which were rejected. Part of the reason is that there is not enough urgency because of the Taxpayer bailouts.

    What is wrong with an orderly, pre-packaged bankruptcy with some minimal government guarantees such as for warranties ? And perhaps some Federal loan guarantees a la Chrysler in 1980 ? Why is Ford in much better shape than GM ?

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Zofia View Post
    Wrong again. Chapter 11 was long ago amended to prohibit the bankruptcy court from abrogating contracts entered into pursuant to a collective bargaining agreement.
    Not afaik ! Quite the contrary, actually. All the union is entitled to is a HEARING.
    And any changes or modifications must be approved by the Bankruptcy Judge.

    The Supreme Court has ruled on this more than once. ALL contracts are subject to revision or even outright rejection in a Bankruptcy.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    GM, like the banks but for a different reason, is just too big to fail without a fight.

    Also, as they say, if you win a country, you own it. GM is equivalent to a small country in terms of capitalization and employee dependency. Not only that, but whereever there are GM plants, you have regional economies very dependent on that failed company. And regional economies are leading indicators of the national economy.

    A significant reason that so many large companies have been failing is that today's Boards of Directors are just rubber-stamp operations that ave abdicated their powers likely in order to keep their lucrative BoD retainers. GM's board should have cleaned house at least two decades ago. (And other auto companies as well, letting foreign companies dominate their industry.) Another big factor is the poor efforts by the US Government in obtaining equitable auto trading agreements with Far East countries and in not being protectionist enough in the face of such salary/standard-of-living parities and outright dumping. Another factor is the American consumers who just do not understand the implications of buying foreign goods. There are multiplying factors at work that people just do not understand when buying foreign-made goods vs American-made ones. The dollars are just NOT equivalent. It's worth a cople of percent more to keep your community's economy in good shape.

    Yes, I know about how dollar-conscious the conservatives are, but they ought to be conscious of long-range effects of just how they spend that dollar.

    So there are many factors to consider, and lots of blame to go around.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    In any case what was so great about Wagoner? He had 20 years to learn to manipulate the market and he failed pretty badly.

    "And here we have a beautiful Hummer H-1. This is the pinnacle of our twenty-first century automotive technology; it lasts almost forever and no road is insurmountable to it." If only GM itself was that indestructible.
    Last edited by threlayer; 04-08-2009 at 07:15 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    GM, like the banks but for a different reason, is just too big to fail without a fight.

    Also, as they say, if you win a country, you own it. GM is equivalent to a small country in terms of capitalization and employee dependency. Not only that, but whereever there are GM plants, you have regional economies very dependent on that failed company. And regional economies are leading indicators of the national economy.

    A significant reason that so many large companies have been failing is that today's Boards of Directors are just rubber-stamp operations that ave abdicated their powers likely in order to keep their lucrative BoD retainers. GM's board should have cleaned house at least two decades ago. (And other auto companies as well, letting foreign companies dominate their industry.) Another big factor is the poor efforts by the US Government in obtaining equitable auto trading agreements with Far East countries and in not being protectionist enough in the face of such salary/standard-of-living parities and outright dumping. Another factor is the American consumers who just do not understand the implications of buying foreign goods. There are multiplying factors at work that people just do not understand when buying foreign-made goods vs American-made ones. The dollars are just NOT equivalent. It's worth a cople of percent more to keep your community's economy in good shape.

    Yes, I know about how dollar-conscious the conservatives are, but they ought to be conscious of long-range effects of just how they spend that dollar.

    So there are many factors to consider, and lots of blame to go around.
    GM has certainly suffered from poor management for well over two decades. Starting with the horrible Roger Smith. The Board has been nothing but a rubber stamp for lousy management at GM and many other corporations. Mgt. selects the board for all intents and purposes at most U.S. Corporations. Most directors do not even have to be stockholders in the corporation they are charged with overseeing.

    Let's not let the UAW off the hook. For decades, the UAW was party to agreements that directly resulted in lay-offs and plant closings in return for keeping up wages , benefits and maintaining insane work rules. In turn, the UAW did NOT go after ridiculous executive compensation and perks.

    Btw, I wonder how the average UAW member felt about union delegates living it up at the Fontainbleu in Miami for the UAW's annual meeting ?

    I have always driven an American car. And I think our trade negotiators could have done a much better job in opening markets for American cars BUT GM and Ford ( I don't know about Chrysler ) both build cars in many countries overseas and sell them there. Just as Toyota and Honda build cars here in the U.S.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    In any case what was so great about Wagoner? He had 20 years to learn to manipulate the market and he failed pretty badly.

    "And here we have a beautiful Hummer H-1. This is the pinacle of our twenty-first century automotive technology; it lasts almost forever and no road is insurmountable to it." If only GM itself was that indestructible.
    I'm NOT a Wagoner fan BUT the Hummer IS a VERY profitable model for GM.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    ^^^ yes but the H1, and subsequently the H2, made LOTS of profits for GM right up until the point that gas hit $4 a gallon. Also, US consumers went right on buying the H2 right up until the point that gas hit $4 a gallon, and have again risen now that gas is back down to $2 a gallon. Arguably, GM's problems have every bit as much to do with US policies re oil drilling and CAFE standards as they do with product offerings. If US gov't policy wants to force Americans to buy ever smaller cars that Americans really don't want to buy, then setting such CAFE standards on US automakers immediately puts them behind the 8 ball relative to foreign automakers who are able to offer new SUV's in the USA without limit ( reference Audi and Porsche and Lexus ).

    Granted that union labor rates and union benefit costs put them at a disadvantage against foreign owned US automakers.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    ...Let's not let the UAW off the hook. For decades, the UAW was party to agreements that directly resulted in lay-offs and plant closings in return for keeping up wages , benefits and maintaining insane work rules. In turn, the UAW did NOT go after ridiculous executive compensation and perks.

    Btw, I wonder how the average UAW member felt about union delegates living it up at the Fontainbleu in Miami for the UAW's annual meeting ?
    Probably none liked those plush expenses. More to the point is why the members allowed the UAW mgt to sacrifice jobs of their co-workers so that they could, in decreasing numbers, could earn ever higher wages and benefits, far outstipping comparable jobs in other industries. That is my question.

    I have always driven an American car. And I think our trade negotiators could have done a much better job in opening markets for American cars BUT GM and Ford ( I don't know about Chrysler ) both build cars in many countries overseas and sell them there. Just as Toyota and Honda build cars here in the U.S.
    The Detroit Three have had operations overseas for many years, designing, making, and selling very different models, and to an extent better vehicles. They did not draw on that experience until very recently. Those 3 automakers developed partnerships under the philosophy that it is better to join them than to get defeated by them. Basically it was because those overseas automakers were producing better cars with better technology and Detroit wanted in on the action. and without having to develop it from scratch.

    Many 'domestic' cars and trucks are full of foreign components and have been designed overseas. One would think that, with all that successful competition, and outright acknowledgment of overseas carmaker superiority in terms of actually selling numbers, that they would have made some big turnarounds.

    Buy they didn't. And a stupid, non-reactive management ought to be replaced. I think Obama made an aggressive, but wise, decision. As I've said, those companies were just too big to fail.

    As I've posted here before, I also buy American cars. I try to buy other American-made goods, but it is very difficult anymore not to compromise very heavily on that goal.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    BTW Melonie, gas is now $2.20/g and going up almost daily. <sigh>
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    Don't forget why we even have SUVs: Government and auto maker 'deal making' over CAFE standards many years ago - The CAFE standards were exempted for 'light trucks'. (Which Japan, at the time did not make.) These light trucks (aka Surburbans) were then outfitted with leather and 'luxury interiors' and sold as luxury vehicles.

    Now many pople buy SUV because it is the only 'safe' vehicle to have if you are in a crash with another one...

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    Ugh. I own stock in GM. Not very much, but still...

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    What is wrong with an orderly, pre-packaged bankruptcy with some minimal government guarantees such as for warranties ? And perhaps some Federal loan guarantees a la Chrysler in 1980 ? Why is Ford in much better shape than GM ?
    There is no DIP financing available other than from Uncle Sam. No DIP financing, no pre-packaged bankruptcy. Also, BK for GM kills Ford and Chrysler. If that's what you want, then be up front about it. But, I don't think killing off the domestic auto industry and severely wounding Toyota in the process makes sense.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Not afaik ! Quite the contrary, actually. All the union is entitled to is a HEARING.
    And any changes or modifications must be approved by the Bankruptcy Judge.

    The Supreme Court has ruled on this more than once. ALL contracts are subject to revision or even outright rejection in a Bankruptcy.
    If you had bothered to read the Bankruptcy Code, you would see that section 1113 (and 1114 regarding retiree benefits) has been added. Section 1113 sets out the exclusive framework for revision or rejection of collective bargaining agreements. Before a bankrupt can even get a hearing, it has to bargain in good faith as that is defined within the National Labor Relations Act. If the parties bargain in good faith and cannot reach an agreement, then and only then can the court hold a hearing. At that hearing the court must follow the framework set up in Section 1113.

    HTH
    Z

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    Ford is doing well right now because they arguably have the best CEO available right now period. GM had a bad CEO.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Zofia View Post
    If you had bothered to read the Bankruptcy Code, you would see that section 1113 (and 1114 regarding retiree benefits) has been added. Section 1113 sets out the exclusive framework for revision or rejection of collective bargaining agreements. Before a bankrupt can even get a hearing, it has to bargain in good faith as that is defined within the National Labor Relations Act. If the parties bargain in good faith and cannot reach an agreement, then and only then can the court hold a hearing. At that hearing the court must follow the framework set up in Section 1113.

    HTH
    Z
    All TRUE and the end result can and will be the same. The contracts get torn up.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    Quote Originally Posted by Zofia View Post
    There is no DIP financing available other than from Uncle Sam. No DIP financing, no pre-packaged bankruptcy. Also, BK for GM kills Ford and Chrysler. If that's what you want, then be up front about it. But, I don't think killing off the domestic auto industry and severely wounding Toyota in the process makes sense.
    We don't know that. With Federal loan guarantees there is certain to be DIP financing available. It's a "no-lose" situation for any lender.

    I don't see how GM in bankruptcy necessarily harms either Ford or Chrysler. Or Toyota for that matter.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    ^^ The suppliers of GM will be severely stressed if GM cannot pay their bills. You can figure it out from there.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: Obama = CEO of GM

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    ^^ The suppliers of GM will be severely stressed if GM cannot pay their bills. You can figure it out from there.
    The suppliers are severely stressed now. Something has to give somewhere and sometime. The current situation cannot continue indefinitely.

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