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Thread: One Set of Facts for Everybody

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    Default One Set of Facts for Everybody

    The recent downturn gave statists and Keynesians the opportunity to wag their fingers and natter " I told you so".

    The death of Jack Kemp has heightened the liberal hypocrisy and factual delinquency culminating in Bob Herbert's column in today's New York Times. In his usual ideologically heavy handed way, Herbert tries to compliment Kemp for tying to have a "Big Tent" within the Republican Party. However, he claims that Kemp was wasting his time by trying to be inclusive with a "racist" institution. As evidence he cites a FIFTY (50) year old quote from Bill Buckley which he long ago repudiated re: Southern reaction to Brown vs. Bd. of Education.

    Herbert then says that Kemp's supply side economics was A. a failure and B. responsible for our current economic situation. Both are blatantly untrue.

    JFK's tax cuts gave us unprecedented economic growth; full employment with low inflation. So did Reagan's and so did Clinton's and so did Bush's.

    Herbert repeats the claim that the "rich got richer and the poor got poorer". The first part is correct and the second is not with one big "but". JFK's tax cuts increased employment and income at all levels. With Reagan's and Clinton's incomes went up for all groups except arguably the BOTTOM fifth of EARNERS and under Bush their wages were stagnant and some studies even show a decline.
    But it wasn't tax cuts for higher earners that caused the stagnation. Almost all of those people NEVER paid Federal Income Taxes in the first place ! PAYROLL taxes; YES ! And thanks to Reagan, O'Neil, Greenspan and Claude Pepper in the 1980's, PAYROLL taxes went UP ! Thanks to Clinton in the 90's, Payroll taxes went up . Thanks to Bush, Medicare fees went UP! The income stagnation had zero, zip, nada to do with cuts in marginal INCOME Tax rates.

    Just as importantly; maybe even MORE importantly depending on who you read and listen to; wages for the bottom fifth have been suppressed and forced down by ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. Low wage, unskilled jobs have been filled by Illegals.

    Under Clinton and Bush, the middle three tiers have experienced ever growing STATE and LOCAL tax increases and that's why they have NOT seen increased incomes. Again, it has NOTHING to do with cuts in marginal Federal Income and Capital Gains tax rates.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 01-14-2013 at 08:25 AM.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    This is political.

    You know where to go with it.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    Well any discussion of Keynes vs Hayek, as well as any discussion of the real facts regarding the results of JFK's tax cuts, the facts of net earnings of US residents by 'quintile' etc. certainly have extremely significant economic overtones. While the Jack Kemp link was obviously written with political intent, Stoner's points are at least 50% economic. They are also arguably 100% factually correct.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Well any discussion of Keynes vs Hayek, as well as any discussion of the real facts regarding the results of JFK's tax cuts, the facts of net earnings of US residents by 'quintile' etc. certainly have extremely significant economic overtones. While the Jack Kemp link was obviously written with political intent, Stoner's points are at least 50% economic. They are also arguably 100% factually correct.
    I posted it for it's ECONOMIC import which is being DIRECTLY affected by current events; now and more importantly, in the future.

    The reason MOST of us are working harder; actually making more money and yet having LESS to show for it is T A X E S ! Not just Federal taxes but state and local taxes.

    Here's just one insidious example of "stealth" tax increases. I am a compulsive energy conserver. I keep the thermostat as low as possible ( it's why they invented the sweater ) and I'm always trotting around shutting off lights, T.V.'s , radios etc. My actual usage of energy has gone DOWN yet my Con Ed bill has gone UP. Despite the fact that Con Ed's energy generating costs have also gone down because oil and natural gas used to generate the electricity have gone down. Some of the increase has gone to Con Ed but MOST of it has gone to NYS and NYC. The utility taxes that Con Ed passes on to me ( and other customers) are included in the total sale on which is charged SALES TAX i.e. the increased taxes inflate the amount of the sale. Same thing for National Grid ( gas) ; Verizon ( FIOS and cell ) and at the gas station.
    Probably the most Kafkaesque example is the water bill. Water consumption has gone DOWN- ( we're all saving water) but the rates have gone UP.

    Another related issue is deciding WHERE to live and work. Taxes play a major part in such a decision. According to the George Mason University Mercatus Center's Freedom Index- New York is dead last by a wide margin. This is based on dozens of variables affecting personal, social and ECONOMIC freedom. A big part of the ECONOMIC calculus are debt burdens of various states - Somebody ( guess who ? ) has to pay all that money back. Add in personal freedom; business freedom ( regulatory and licensing burdens); educational freedom; gun laws; etc. etc. and New York desrves its place in the cellar.

    There is an incredible correlation between ranking on this Freedom Index and the current condition of the respective states. At the bottom with the least freedom for it's citizens are New York ( 50th), New Jersey ( 49th ) Rhode Island ( 48th ) and California (47th). N.Y., N.J. and Cali have 2/3 of ALL state debt in the U.S. All have seen low to negative economic and job growth and negative population growth. ( Even during the "good times" under Clinton and G.W. Bush. ) Contrast the bottom dwellers with the states ranked highest- New Hampshire, Colorado, South Dakota, Idaho and Texas. All have unemployment at or below the national average. N.H. 's is 6.2% which is two points below the national rate of 8.2 %. All have far more people entering than leaving.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 05-06-2009 at 09:16 AM.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Well any discussion of Keynes vs Hayek, as well as any discussion of the real facts regarding the results of JFK's tax cuts, the facts of net earnings of US residents by 'quintile' etc. certainly have extremely significant economic overtones. While the Jack Kemp link was obviously written with political intent, Stoner's points are at least 50% economic. They are also arguably 100% factually correct.
    They're not. Bill Clinton raised taxes.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    They're not. Bill Clinton raised taxes.
    They most certainly are.

    Clinton raised marginal Income tax rates and slapped a retroactive surcharge on the highest earners but NOT to anything remotely resembling where they had been before Reagan's tax cuts. Instead of 70% under Carter; the top rate was 39.6 % .And after those increases there was NO real economic improvement. The country was already well on its way out of the brief and shallow Bush Recession of 1991-2. Dole was initially way ahead in the polls in 1996 and his primary issue was the sluggish ECONOMY.

    Employment and economic growth did not substantially increase until AFTER Clinton cut Capital Gains taxes in 1997.

    Clinton also raised Payroll taxes.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 05-08-2009 at 07:17 AM.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    There was significant economic improvement after Clinton's tax increases were passed. In 1994, the year after the tax increases were passed, the GDP grew 4%. In 1996 the GDP grew another 3.7%.

    http://indexmundi.com/united_states/...owth_rate.html

    Also, after initially cutting taxes, President Reagan passed several tax increases when revenues after the tax cuts did not meet projects.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    If less tax is good, why isnt't no tax even better. Let's all not pay taxes and see where that takes the country. Simple, huh?

    Actually it's what is taxed as much as how much is the tax. And there are a LOT of inconsistent and nonsensical things in the tax structure for the average American. The tax code has just gotten more complex with more loopholes and more and more patches to make up for fuzzy thinking, mistakes, and omissions made by all those administrations. Don't forget that the House is just as responsible as Treasury and the President. Certainly don't forget all those lobbyists with something to gain and the American public always trying to get something, or more, for nothing.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    I love paying my taxes. They pay for everything that makes my country a wonderful place to live, and I love that I contribute fully to that.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    ^^^ knock yourself out there Bobby ... I'm sure that if and when you become seriously ill, like many other Canadians you'll make a bee-line for a US medical center (who will gladly accept your Canadian dollars as payment, but not your Canadian national health insurance coverage) rather than waiting in line for months to see a Canadian specialist who is paid with your own tax dollars.

    If less tax is good, why isnt't no tax even better. Let's all not pay taxes and see where that takes the country. Simple, huh?
    It will take us back to 1912, which wasn't all that bad of a place to be.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ knock yourself out there Bobby ... I'm sure that if and when you become seriously ill, like many other Canadians you'll make a bee-line for a US medical center (who will gladly accept your Canadian dollars as payment, but not your Canadian national health insurance coverage) rather than waiting in line for months to see a Canadian specialist who is paid with your own tax dollars.
    Give your head a shake Mel. If that fantasy gets you through the night in your little Central American cesspool, well, you go girl.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ knock yourself out there Bobby ... I'm sure that if and when you become seriously ill, like many other Canadians you'll make a bee-line for a US medical center (who will gladly accept your Canadian dollars as payment, but not your Canadian national health insurance coverage) rather than waiting in line for months to see a Canadian specialist who is paid with your own tax dollars.
    More conservative mythology. I have a friend in Canada who is a professional wrestler. She's had a number of injuries during her career and she's had no problem getting her injuries treated right away in Canadian hospitals. If she lived in the US, she probably wouldn't even be able to get insurance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    It will take us back to 1912, which wasn't all that bad of a place to be.
    Yes it was, if you were one of the 60-70 percent of Americans who were living in poverty.

    http://ideas.repec.org/p/wop/wispod/1166-98.html

    "The rate of poverty exhibited a long-run downward trend from about 60–70 percent in the earlier years of the century to the 12–14 percent range in recent years, with considerable fluctuation around this secular trend. "

    Millions of Americans, including children, labored away in sweat shops.

    http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/childlabor/

    Is this your idea of an ideal society?

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    Millions of 'children' are still laboring away in sweat shops ... only those modern day sweatshops are in China or Vietnam or India. But modern day Americans conveniently ignore this fact i.e. that they are subsidizing such sweatshops every time they buy an imported product that originates in such a sweatshop whether they shop at WalMart or an upscale mall.

    But from an economic standpoint, as well as from a global poverty standpoint, the only two things that have changed are that that the sweatshops are no longer 'in American's back yard', and also that the well paying jobs associated with non-sweatshop American manufacturing industries are also no longer 'in America's back yard' either ... or front yard ... or side yard !

    For all of you compassionate Keynesians out there, check this out. Yes that's right folks truth is stranger than fiction !



    (snip)Gov. Deval Patrick’s free wheels for welfare recipients program is revving up despite the stalled economy, as the keys to donated cars loaded with state-funded insurance, repairs and even AAA membership are handed out to get them to work.

    But the program - fueled by a funding boost despite the state’s fiscal crash - allows those who end up back on welfare to keep the cars anyway.

    “It’s mind-boggling. You’ve got people out there saying, ‘I just lost my job. Hey, can I get a free car, too?’ ” said House Minority Leader Brad Jones (R-North Reading)."(snip)



    She's had a number of injuries during her career and she's had no problem getting her injuries treated right away in Canadian hospitals
    Broken bones and contusions are cheap and simple to treat. Lets hope your friend fares as well if she ever develops bone cancer or breast cancer. Of course, the patient often dies during the wait for a CAT scan at a Canadian hospital before their disease is actually fully diagnosed ...



    (snip)a Fraser Institute report from 2003 which shows that Canadian dogs have it better than Canadian humans when a specialist visit and a CT scan are needed.

    The total waiting time for patients between referral from a general practitioner and treatment, averaged across all 12 specialties and 10 provinces surveyed, increased this year; rising to 17.7 weeks in 2003 (from 16.5 weeks in 2001-02).

    “Canadians are waiting almost 18 weeks for essential medical care. And these lineups have almost doubled over the past ten years. The standard solution -- throwing more money at the problem -- is just not working. The federal and provincial governments are still failing to act in the face of international evidence that increasing patient options for private care reduces waiting times,” said John R. Graham, the Institute’s director of health and pharmaceutical policy research.

    The waiting time between referral by a GP and consultation with a specialist rose to 8.3 weeks, an increase of 14 percent over last year (7.3 weeks).

    The shortest waits for specialist consultations were found in British Columbia (6.7 weeks), Manitoba (6.9 weeks), and Saskatchewan (7 weeks). The longest waits for specialist consultations occurred in Newfoundland (12.6 weeks), New Brunswick (11.8 weeks), and Alberta (10 weeks).

    The growing waits to see a specialist and to receive treatment were not the only delays facing patients in 2003. Patients also experienced significant waiting times for computed tomography (CT), magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), and ultrasound scans.

    The median wait across Canada for a CT scan was 5.5 weeks. The shortest wait for computed tomography was in New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland (4 weeks), while the longest wait occurred in Prince Edward Island (8 weeks).

    So if my friend had needed a referral for himself to a specialist and for a CT scan he'd probably have to wait at least 3 months. As it stands now his dog is getting through the same process in less than 3 weeks.

    If my friend got desperate he could always leave Canada. A drive south to New York would takes Canadians to a real medical market that allows competition and customer payment for services rendered. This ability to pay for services makes provision of such services much quicker, just like what a dog in Canada can get. Unfortunately, it is hard for Canadians to buy medical insurance to use in the event of a major illness. Therefore the trip south is more often an option for illnesses which are less expensive to treat and for wealthy people.

    On the bright side, it is good to know that Canadians place a such high priority on quick medical treatment for their dogs."(snip)


    Actually, while Canadian news media makes it a point to NOT report on this subject since a 2005 CBC report drew a ton of heat, there is in fact a growing 'private' medical referral industry being marketed in Canada that functions outside of the national health care system ... for those that can afford it !




    (snip)Isn't jumping the queue against the Canadian way?

    Indeed it is. Inmates in Federal prisons and politicians (among others) routinely jump the queue and we agree that this practice is outrageous. Jumping the queue occurs when convicted criminals and politicians are given preference over the rest of us. When they jump to the head of the queue, Mrs Brown - who had been at the head of the list - is forced to relinquish her place in line. Our clients don't jump the queue; they leave the queue and obtain timely care outside the public health care system. (snip)


    If my doctor has put me onto a waiting list, she must believe that the wait won't affect my health? Mustn't she?

    Doctors don't establish waitlists- governments do. The Fraser Institute has reported that "specialists now believe over 90% of waiting times are beyond clinically reasonable times". Ask yourself if it is reasonable for Canadian men in some jurisdictions to wait 9 months for the commencement of treatment for prostate cancer after the initial diagnosis? Is it reasonable for an elderly person with kidney stones to wait 8 weeks to see a urologist? Should a woman diagnosed with breast cancer wait 18 weeks before beginning radiation therapy? Clients of Timely Medical Alternatives can access immediate care for all of the above and, in fact, any medical condition. The sooner treatment begins, the more likely it will be that the patient will have favorable results. That's just common sense and why we say "Can you afford to wait?".


    Once I'm on an official waitlist, am I not guaranteed to get treatment on a specific date?

    It isn't possible to determine, with any accuracy, how quickly anyone will rise to the top of the list. Even when a surgical date is eventually established, our clients report being "bumped" time and time again by more urgent cases.


    What does the government think about Canadian residents leaving the country to get timely medical care?

    Who knows what governments really think. Realistically, they are happy when anyone leaves the 875,000 person waiting list-or at least they should be! The bad news is that Canada is one of only 3 countries where citizens are forbidden, by federal law, to pay a care giving medical facility for treatment. Hence the long waitlists. The good news is that, unlike the other two - Cuba and North Korea - Canadians are still free to seek care beyond the borders of their home country."(snip)


    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-07-2009 at 08:51 PM.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Millions of 'children' are still laboring away in sweat shops ... only those modern day sweatshops are in China or Vietnam or India. But modern day Americans conveniently ignore this fact i.e. that they are subsidizing such sweatshops every time they buy an imported product that originates in such a sweatshop whether they shop at WalMart or an upscale mall.
    and these countries follow the policies you so strongly advocate.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,3092824.story

    When it comes to healthcare, the U.S., Britain and Canada are hurting
    Healthcare in all three countries has the same problem. They just feel it in different places.
    By Ezra Klein
    April 7, 2009
    When asked by the New England Journal of Medicine to detail his healthcare vision during the campaign, John McCain concluded with a rousing denunciation of "new government bureaucracies that will translate into higher taxes, reduced provider payments and long waiting lines."

    Long lines come up frequently in the American healthcare discussion, the symbol of all that is to be feared about a government-run system. And it's true that in Canada and Britain, the two countries most often cited in discussions of what nationalized healthcare might mean, some patients report having to wait months for some elective treatments. Sometimes.


    But we've got waiting lines too -- along with 50 million uninsured and a system that costs more than twice as much per person as that of any other country. We've just managed to hide our lines through clever statistical gimmickry.

    Britain and Canada control costs in a very specific fashion: The government sets a budget for how much will be spent on healthcare that year, and the system figures out how to spend that much and no more. One of the ways the British and Canadians save money is to punt elective surgeries to a lower priority level. A 2001 survey by the policy journal "Health Affairs" found that 38% of Britons and 27% of Canadians reported waiting four months or more for elective surgery. Among Americans, that number was only 5%. Score one of us!

    Well, sort of. American healthcare controls costs in another way. Rather than deciding as a society how much will be spent in the coming year and then figuring out how best to spend it, we abdicate collective responsibility and let individuals fend for themselves. So although Britain and Canada have decided that no one will go without, even if some must occasionally wait, the U.S. has decided that most of those who can't afford care simply won't get it.

    When that very same survey also looked at cost problems among residents of different countries, 24% of Americans reported that they did not get medical care because of cost. Twenty-six percent said they didn't fill a prescription. And 22% said they didn't get a test or treatment.
    Those latter numbers are probably artificially small: If you can't afford to see a doctor, you never know that you can't afford the treatment she would recommend. In Britain and Canada, only about 6% of respondents reported that costs had limited their access to care.

    Moreover, surveys conducted by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development have found that most countries don't have waiting lines or the uninsured. Not Germany or France or Japan or Sweden, all of which have more of a mix of public and private options. But Canada is next door, and Britain speaks our language, so we tend to spend a lot of time comparing our system with these systems and not a lot of time thinking through the full range of options.

    In light of the "Health Affairs" data, smugness about our speedy access to care seems a bit peculiar. If someone can't afford care, we record their waiting time as zero. You don't wait for what you can't have. But a more accurate accounting would record that wait as infinite, or it would record when the patient eventually ends up in the emergency room because the original ailment went untreated. Research like this raises a simple question: Would you rather wait four months for a surgery or be unable to get it altogether?

    Just last week, House Republicans expressed their preference for the latter. Their long-awaited budget document was admirably specific about changes to Medicare. They call for "a new Medicare program" in which enrollees are given a check "equal to 100% of the Medicare benefit," which they can then take to the private market to purchase their own care.

    This proposal has a purpose beyond dismantling a popular government entitlement program. Currently, Medicare does not abide by a budget. It is not run like the Canadian or British healthcare systems. Instead, it pays whatever is deemed "reasonable and necessary." Because of that, costs are shooting through the roof: The Congressional Budget Office estimates that Medicare spending will more than triple by 2050.

    The Republican plan gives Medicare a budget. Costs grow only as fast as the check grows. And because the check grows more slowly than health spending does, the program saves money. But this is, in effect, almost precisely the strategy of Britain and Canada: It is the government imposing an arbitrary budget on its healthcare spending.

    The difference is that the British and Canadian governments try to apportion that health spending so that the whole population gets care. That can mean, alongside other cost-saving measures, longer waits for services. The Republican budget simply would give individuals a fixed check. That will mean that patients who exceed that sum and don't have money of their own go without needed care.

    So Americans will continue to brag that no one waits, and Canadians and Britons will continue to brag that no one goes without. And somewhere, the French and the Germans and the Japanese and the Swiss and many others will wonder why we insist on choosing between such awful extremes.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    ^^^ my point was that, much like moving pollution out of Americans' back yards actually resulting in a loss of American jobs but a GREATER amount of total pollution being generated globally, moving low paying jobs out of American's back yards results in a loss of American jobs but a GREATER amount of sweatshop activities being generated globally.

    So in one sense Americans have indeed eased their consciences because they no longer find these 'distasteful' things happening in their own back yard, but in point of fact they have actually worsened the very problems they were intending to eliminate on a global basis. And in the process of easing their consciences they have driven out well paying American jobs and incurred higher taxes while making these problems worse on a global level !!!

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    Millions of 'children' are still laboring away in sweat shops ... only those modern day sweatshops are in China or Vietnam or India. But modern day Americans conveniently ignore this fact i.e. that they are subsidizing such sweatshops every time they buy an imported product that originates in such a sweatshop whether they shop at WalMart or an upscale mall.
    Did you ever stop to think about what caused those "sweatshops" that we Americans, admittedly, benefit from? American big business, abetted by cooperative tax laws lobbied on Congress by big business. And don't forget American consumers who have unpatriotically betrayed American workers by demanding as much as possible for as little as possible. And they way to do that has been to buy from companies supporting foreign, or self-owned, sweatshops while American workers are dishing out cheap, tasteless hamburgers for Americans wanting food as cheaply as they can get it.

    The whole thing has been a shakedown because no one ever looks ahead to see the bumps in the road.
    Last edited by threlayer; 05-12-2009 at 07:23 AM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    Compare the population of Canada to the US. Compare the liveable land area to that of the US. Compare the history and immigration policy to that of the US. While you're at it compare the murder, rape, and robbery rates (including white-collar crime) to that of the US. Compare city life of any large Canadian city to that of ANY large US city.

    What does that bostonglobe article have to do with this debate? It's just one state in any case. Parapundit, what the heck is that, yet another blog of an anonymous someone's opinions? Canada's wait times are controlled by the availability of practitioners and facilities that provide high tech equipment, such as MRIs, not their single-payer system. "According to a 2007 article from CTV News, the Canadian medical profession is suffering from a brain drain. The article states, "One in nine trained-in-Canada doctors is practising medicine in the United States...If Canadian-educated doctors who were born in the U.S. are excluded, the number is one in 12." " Why? Because they can become richer in the US because of the lobbying efforts of the AMA, insurers, med manufacturers, lobbyists, and our government's collusion, to the detriment of USA residents' health.

    I can't believe any intelligent person could believe that that US healthcare system is going along the best path or even a reasonable one. We are just following along in the AMA and the pharmaceutical and health insurance industry's best interests. Big business rules over us again, this time we pay for it with our lives not just our dollars. Though they have that pretty well covered too.

    This is just NONSENSE. "According to the Institute of Medicine and others, the United States is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not provide universal health care."
    Last edited by threlayer; 05-08-2009 at 07:00 AM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ...moving low paying jobs out of American's back yards results in a loss of American jobs but a GREATER amount of sweatshop activities being generated globally.

    So in one sense Americans have indeed eased their consciences because they no longer find these 'distasteful' things happening in their own back yard, but in point of fact they have actually worsened the very problems they were intending to eliminate on a global basis. And in the process of easing their consciences they have driven out well paying American jobs and incurred higher taxes while making these problems worse on a global level !!!
    It is not American's 'consciences', it is big business and big business-controlled government's collusion and the "Pied Piper" of cheapness of American consumers that has done that. Read that as tax policies. We feel good about buying a lot of stuff, and we don't care about the worldwide consequences, nor does big business.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    In the USA we have a well-accepted system which promotes and rates health insurance coverage.

    The National Committee for Quality Assurance is a private, 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization dedicated to improving health care quality. Since its founding in 1990, NCQA has been a central figure in driving improvement throughout the health care system, helping to elevate the issue of health care quality to the top of the national agenda.
    ...
    NCQA has helped to build consensus around important health care quality issues by working with large employers, policymakers, doctors, patients and health plans to decide what’s important, how to measure it, and how to promote improvement. That consensus is invaluable — transforming our health care system requires the collected will and resources of all these constituencies and more.
    They state in their recent latter to Obama:

    Our nation’s troubled economy has brought the pressing need for access to quality, affordable health care into sharp relief. Far too many Americans live without adequate insurance, and escalating costs are bankrupting working families and businesses at an alarming rate. The wildly uneven quality delivered by the American health care system leaves us lagging behind most other industrialized nations in terms of life expectancy and other key measures of care.

    NCQA is dedicated to improving the quality of health care delivered to all Americans. We regard the recent enactment of the Children’s Health Insurance Program Reauthorization Act and the American Recovery and Renewal Act as significant steps towards maintaining and improving access to quality care. The two measures expand access to the system and provide for investments in performance measurement, health information technology and comparative effectiveness research.
    Nowhere do they discuss widening the healthcare insurance to those not covered due to cost or pre-existing conditions. Nor do they include in their measures for evaluation (either in measures of "Quality of Care" and "Access to Care"), any evaluation of the total population -- including those without access to healthcare because of insurance premium costs.

    All other 'first world' countries treat their total population health better than we do. Further, there are many measures where the US is nowhere near the top in effectiveness of healthcare, in fact we are well below many other such countries in some basic measues. This has been widely publicized in recent years. So as good as we think we are, when considering our total population, we are rather poor.

    Sure, if your health plan covers such risky procedures as stem-cell (bone marrow) transplants and you can afford high cost insurance premiums, that may save your life. Else I'll send flowers, maybe wild daisies because I can't afford anything better.
    Last edited by threlayer; 05-11-2009 at 08:46 AM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    If less tax is good, why isnt't no tax even better. Let's all not pay taxes and see where that takes the country. Simple, huh?
    It will take us back to 1912, which wasn't all that bad of a place to be.
    It wasn't that good either. Ever notice those old buildings with all their fancy skilled labor? That was because skilled laborers worked for pennies an hour. Got hurt on the job? Good luck getting well, because when you're laid off with no savings in a hand-to-mouth economy, you won't be. You say you have 15 kids, and half of them work now. Good, because their lives now will be spent buying you 'medicines' such as laudanum, to kill your pain.

    Try living in the Amish way and see how hard that life is. Oh, you're in the city now and off the farm? Good luck avoiding influenza and cholera in your rat-infested slum with muddy dirt roads and horse droppings all over.

    All that as a tradeoff for no income tax? No thanks.

    Ridiculous.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    There was significant economic improvement after Clinton's tax increases were passed. In 1994, the year after the tax increases were passed, the GDP grew 4%. In 1996 the GDP grew another 3.7%.

    http://indexmundi.com/united_states/...owth_rate.html

    Also, after initially cutting taxes, President Reagan passed several tax increases when revenues after the tax cuts did not meet projects.
    Of course there was an "improvement". The American economy started emerging from the G.H.W. Bush Recession in the last quarter of 1992. It was too late to help Bush and unemployment stayed high ( compared to where it had been under Reagan ) well into Clinton's SECOND term. After, and ONLY after, Clinton cut Capital Gains and other business and investment taxes did the economy really take off. Dole was ahead of Clinton well into the summer of 1996 running on the economy.

    Eagle - How do YOU explain the poor economic performance of high tax states like N.Y., N.J., California and Rhode Island compared to other low tax states like Idaho, New Hampshire and Texas ? What accounts for the declining populations of the high tax states and the growing populations of low tax states ?

    New Jersey is a perfect example. Not too long ago it was actually a low tax state; with high economic growth, low unemployment and a growing population. Many businesses relocated from N.Y. to N.J. Starting with Brendan Byrne, accelerating under Florio and reaching new heights under McGreevy and Corzine, state and local spending and taxes increased dramatically. ( In fairness, Kean and Whitman were NOT paragons of fiscal responsibility but both were clearly less bad than their Dem predecessors and successors.) The result ? N.J. is now one of the highest tax states in the country and has high unemployment ( even before the recession ) negative economic growth and a declining population. Not to mention a bankrupt State Highway Fund and unfunded pension obligations of at least $34 billion.

    So would you please point to a high tax state that is doing well economically ?
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 05-08-2009 at 07:46 AM.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    It wasn't that good either. Ever notice those old buildings with all their fancy skilled labor? That was because skilled laborers worked for pennies an hour. Got hurt on the job? Good luck getting well, because when you're laid off with no savings in a hand-to-mouth economy, you won't be. You say you have 15 kids, and half of them work now. Good, because their lives now will be spent buying you 'medicines' such as laudanum, to kill your pain.

    Try living in the Amish way and see how hard that life is. Oh, you're in the city now and off the farm? Good luck avoiding influenza and cholera in your rat-infested slum with muddy dirt roads and horse droppings all over.

    All that as a tradeoff for no income tax? No thanks.

    Ridiculous.
    I am NOT advocating eliminating the income tax or returning to 1912.

    I am advocating, as I always do, a Tax Code designed to raise the amount of money necessary for government to pay its bills while fostering economic growth.

    I AM advocating a restoration of FREEDOM and permitting most people to decide for themselves as much as possible about their lives as opposed to having the government do it.

    Btw, NO national health care reform has a prayer of working unless and until the shocking shortage of primary care physicians in this country is addressed. We are short 60,000 to 80,000 family practice doctors nationwide.And it's going to get MUCH worse. About half of all primary care doctors plan to retire in the next three years but only 7% of med students plan to enter family care and those planning to pursue pediatrics, geriatrics and internal medicine ( the second layer of primary care providers) are also much to low to replace recent and prospective retirees.

    Decades of restrictive medical school admissions and a slowing of immigrant physicians have left us with a serious doctor shortage.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    In the USA we have a well-accepted system which promotes and rates health insurance coverage.



    They state in their recent latter to Obama:



    Nowhere do they discuss widening the healthcare insurance to those not covered due to cost or pre-existing conditions. Nor do they include in their measures for evaluation (either in measures of "Quality of Care" and "Access to Care"), any evaluation of the total population -- including those without access to healthcare because of insurance premium costs.

    All other 'first world' countries treat their total population health better than we do. Further, there are many measures where the US is nowhere near the top in effectiveness of healthcare, in fact we are below many other such countries in some basic measues. This has been widely publicized in recent years. So as good as we think we are, when considering our total population, we are rather poor.

    Sure, if your health plan covers such risky procedures as stem-cell (bone marrow) transplants and you can afford high cost insurance premiums, that may save your life. Else I'll send flowers, maybe wild daisies because I can't afford anything better.

    Surprise ! Surprise ! Decades of importing poverty and tolerating behavior guaranteed to result in poverty ( premature marriage and child bearing; high school dropouts and going to jail ) have left us with a lot of comparatively poor people. And our working poor who don't qualify for Medicaid face continual downward pressure on their wages and upward pressure on the regressive taxes that they have to pay thanks primarily to the two "evil I's" = Illegal Immigration and Illegitimacy. I should also add a third "evil I "; functional Illiteracy. We are well into producing a THIRD generation of functional illiterates and high school drop outs totally unable to fill decent paying jobs in a modern high tech economy.

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    Default Re: One Set of Facts for Everybody

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    ...Decades of importing poverty and tolerating behavior guaranteed to result in poverty ( premature marriage and child bearing; high school dropouts and going to jail ) have left us with a lot of comparatively poor people. And our working poor who don't qualify for Medicaid face continual downward pressure on their wages and upward pressure on the regressive taxes that they have to pay thanks primarily to the two "evil I's" = Illegal Immigration and Illegitimacy. I should also add a third "evil I "; functional Illiteracy. We are well into producing a THIRD generation of functional illiterates and high school drop outs totally unable to fill decent paying jobs in a modern high tech economy.
    I pretty much agree with all you've said here in this quote. Regressive taxes...exactly, and that's why a flat system is not equitable nor workable. Sales taxes are always regressive. However, the drug enforcement, punishment and rehab industries are doing pretty well with current govt non-policies.

    He problem is that not all people who cannot afford to be 'in the system' (like the stereotypical Ozzie and Harriet) are as you've described. We all know that.
    Last edited by threlayer; 05-08-2009 at 05:30 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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