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Thread: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

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    Default NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local...-Shelters.html

    "Even the homeless can't escape the high price of a night in New York City.

    City officials this month began charging rent to working families staying in public homeless shelters.

    The policy stems from a 1997 state law that hasn't been enforced until now. Under that law, shelter managers started to require families to pay a portion of their income, depending on the shelter and family size, according to The New York Times. Residents could be expected to pay up to half their earnings.

    Some shelter residents say the new rule will ruin their chances of saving enough money to get an apartment.

    One single mother living in a Manhattan shelter tells the Times she got a letter saying she had to give up $336 of the $800 she makes each month as a cashier. Vanessa Dacosta makes $8.40 an hour at Sbarro. She got a letter under her door at the shelter a few weeks ago saying she'd have to fork up nearly half of what she was bringing in.

    For Dacosta, who pays nearly $100 a week on child care for her 2-year-old, paying the shelter is hardly an expense she can afford.

    “It’s not right,” Dacosta told the Times. “I pay my baby sitter, I buy diapers, and I’m trying to save money so I can get out of here. I don’t want to be in the shelter forever.”

    But the city says it's got to find a way to cover the costs of state housing aid. Officials had to pay back $2.4 million in 2007 that they said should have been paid by residents of homeless shelters who could afford it.

    “I think it’s hard to argue that families that can contribute to their shelter cost shouldn’t,” Robert Hess, the city’s commissioner of homeless services, told the Times. “I don’t see this playing out in an adverse way. Our objective is not for families to remain in shelter. Our objective is to move families back into their own homes and into the community.”

    It's not clear why the more than decade-old law hasn't been enforced until now, the Times reports. New York City has a higher rate of working homeless than elsewhere in the state and housing costs are much higher.

    About 2,000 of the 9,000-plus families in city shelters are expected to be covered by the new rule. More than 500 families were told they needed to start paying rent on May 1."

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    welcome to the 'Third World' !

    To be more accurate, this is one more example of the 'moral hazard' facing any unskilled American who wants to work their way out of 'poverty'. The underlying problem of course is that the actual value of the unskilled work they can perform doesn't come close to covering the actual costs of the 'minimum acceptable American standard of living' that the gov't has been providing. If the gov't attempts to recoup any portion of the actual costs of benefits provided (in this case shelter), there is so much disparity between the actual value of unskilled labor and the actual costs of services provided that 'moral hazard' essentially forces these unskilled workers to quit their jobs in order to maintain full eligibility for benefits and 'break even' in terms of actual standard of living.

    New York indeed has major state budget problems. Ever increasing tax rates have driven, and continue to drive, upper income residents and even upper middle income residents (and their contribution to tax revenues) out of the state. At the same time low / no income residents are increasing in number, both via an elevated birth rate and by ongoing immigration (legal and illegal), which steadily increases the state's cost of providing social services. Arguably this is an economic debacle waiting to happen.

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    That person will never be able to afford an apartment in NYC, working where she is, even if she can come up with deposit and first and last month's rent plus moving costs. She needs to develop marketable skills. Only the most basic skills are required where she works now. Since the supply of people with those low skills is almost endless, she will never be in great demand (that is, command a higher pay rate).

    Lady, wake up and smell the coffee.
    Last edited by threlayer; 05-15-2009 at 11:32 AM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    That person will never be able to afford an apartment in NYC, working where she is, even if she can come up with deposit and first and last month's rent plus moving costs. She needs to develop marketable skills. Only the most basic skills are required where she works now. sinc eht supply of people with those skills is almost endless, she will never be in great demand (that is, command a higher pay rate).

    Lady, wake up and smell the coffee.
    Or she needs to move to a less expensive area.

    I am surprised at the number of people who will continue their economic pain without regard to other places to live. Fill up the wagon, hitch up the horses, and haul ass outta there!

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Hard to find a place to live on $800/month, at least one where someone is making a profit by renting to you.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    welcome to the 'Third World' !

    To be more accurate, this is one more example of the 'moral hazard' facing any unskilled American who wants to work their way out of 'poverty'. The underlying problem of course is that the actual value of the unskilled work they can perform doesn't come close to covering the actual costs of the 'minimum acceptable American standard of living' that the gov't has been providing. If the gov't attempts to recoup any portion of the actual costs of benefits provided (in this case shelter), there is so much disparity between the actual value of unskilled labor and the actual costs of services provided that 'moral hazard' essentially forces these unskilled workers to quit their jobs in order to maintain full eligibility for benefits and 'break even' in terms of actual standard of living.

    New York indeed has major state budget problems. Ever increasing tax rates have driven, and continue to drive, upper income residents and even upper middle income residents (and their contribution to tax revenues) out of the state. At the same time low / no income residents are increasing in number, both via an elevated birth rate and by ongoing immigration (legal and illegal), which steadily increases the state's cost of providing social services. Arguably this is an economic debacle waiting to happen.
    There is nothing "arguable" about it. The debacle is already here. Too much spending and too few taxpayers.

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    Or she needs to move to a less expensive area.

    I am surprised at the number of people who will continue their economic pain without regard to other places to live. Fill up the wagon, hitch up the horses, and haul ass outta there!
    It costs money to move...

    That's why people get stuck in the cycle. They need to move so they can make money, but they need money so they can move. And who are we to judge, we really don't have any idea as to her situation or why she stays there.

    Life isn't so black and white as 'oh, you're living in a homeless shelter? Find a better job/city/boyfriend/life/etc.'

    I'm sure that most people who are living in homeless shelters would do a whole lot of things to get out of them but they likely feel hopeless or powerless to do so because they lack the skills or the education or the drive. Hell, maybe she was a top earner at a company that went under and she lost all her savings and so she's just trying to get by until she can find something else.

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    The next big thing to watch, imo, is massive dollar devaluation that will not only cause death of the consumer society, but will make many people unable to pay even their electric bill or fill the gas tank in order to get to work!

    It happened back in the USSR and Argentina, when the currency collapsed and people were selling their real estate for dirt cheap because they were unable to cover costs of basic utilities.

    At least this homeless lady lives in NY where she can probably WALK to work. Most of the American suburbia would die if our currency collapsed to the point where we became unable to buy foreign goods and travel by cars to work!

    The end result, as Melonie correctly noticed, is the standard of living of a Third World nation.

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Quote Originally Posted by Adelina View Post
    The next big thing to watch, imo, is massive dollar devaluation that will not only cause death of the consumer society, but will make many people unable to pay even their electric bill or fill the gas tank in order to get to work!

    It happened back in the USSR and Argentina, when the currency collapsed and people were selling their real estate for dirt cheap because they were unable to cover costs of basic utilities.

    At least this homeless lady lives in NY where she can probably WALK to work. Most of the American suburbia would die if our currency collapsed to the point where we became unable to buy foreign goods and travel by cars to work!

    The end result, as Melonie correctly noticed, is the standard of living of a Third World nation.
    It's what Peron did to Argentina ; what Castro did to Cuba ; what Chavez is doing to Venezuela; what the PRI did to Mexico; what Allende did to Chile ( there are several other examples of varying degrees including Britain under Labor in the late 40's;60's and 70's) and it's starting to happen here.

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    when I read the title I thought well thats ok.. the shelter around here charges 9 dollars a week.. and I dont think that is bad but 350 a month!! that is crazy!! just terrible.. you can get housing assistance or a effic. apt. very small for about the cost of 350-600 a month here


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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    ^^^ which is precisely the reason that the 'poor' lady in the NY shelter needs to move to wherever you are living ! A very small apartment in one of the less desireable areas of metro NY will run $1000 per month ! This is of course a function of NY property tax levels as well as NY real estate valuations.

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ which is precisely the reason that the 'poor' lady in the NY shelter needs to move to wherever you are living ! A very small apartment in one of the less desireable areas of metro NY will run $1000 per month ! This is of course a function of NY property tax levels as well as NY real estate valuations.
    Part of her poverty is probably because NY taxes jack up EVERY thing in cost. Hopefully she doesn't like sodas!

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Its sad because she probably doesnt have any way to move anywhere that she could afford to live if she cant even support herself now =(


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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    ^^^ she couldn't support herself to start with ! This is probably the reason that she moved to NY in the first place. Not to worry though. All she has to do is quit her job, sign up for public housing + welfare + food stamps + medicaid + utility bill assistance and she'll be just fine ! Might even want to pump out a couple of additional kids to boost the benefit level !

    Obviously I'm being facetious. The real problem here is the 'moral hazard' created by the state of NY's social welfare structure, which is amply demonstrated in this specific instance i.e. the state makes sure that the woman can't afford to keep working at a low skill level job, but is perfectly willing to take care of her and her children if she's permanently unemployed !

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    Part of her poverty is probably because NY taxes jack up EVERY thing in cost. Hopefully she doesn't like sodas!
    It's a LOT more than taxes! And a LOT of other states have high taxes also. Landlords jack up their rentals so they can make money to liove on; cewrtainly not all that money gopes to taxes. It's a supply/demand thing. Example there are no supermarkets in Manhatten; you have to buy your groceries at little expensive mom-pop (or Hindu-owned) markets where prices are high due to rent, insurance, utilities, etc.

    Yeah, I know you're tempted to say that EVERYTHING is high due to taxes. But in fact there is a lot of 'exploitative' pricing in NYC because of classic supply/demand. Taxes are only a part of the costs; remember taxes are an operating expense; paying taxes is not the GOAL of businesses. Making a living for owners/employees and a profit is. If taxes were already that high, no one would work or live there already. Last time I checked there seemed to be a lot of people and businesses still there.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ...The real problem here is ... created by the state of NY's social welfare structure, which is amply demonstrated in this specific instance i.e. the state makes sure that the woman can't afford to keep working at a low skill level job, but is perfectly willing to take care of her and her children if she's permanently unemployed !
    There you go!! It is not the welfare concept itself; it how it is structured and administrated. Theoretically these things could be fixed (improved) if someone in power could/would just look at the big picture and realize that a LOT of rules/laws need to be changed, and then get busy fixing them. Entrenched politicians are not too curious about changing laws that they already had a hand in creating. Why, it would be almost like admitting a mistake. Which has gotta be worse for one 'political career' than fixing a wrong to improve things. Wow what a concept -- correcting a bad law. Whoever thought of that -- outrageous!
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ which is precisely the reason that the 'poor' lady in the NY shelter needs to move to wherever you are living ! A very small apartment in one of the less desireable areas of metro NY will run $1000 per month ! This is of course a function of NY property tax levels as well as NY real estate valuations.
    What would you think of the state giving this lady money to move out of NYC to where she can afford to live as a food server? A one-time larger payment to rid the state of a long series of smaller payments. And how about the state contracting with businesses to pay some initial salary and training costs to help grease the runway?

    We need some imagination and faith that we can actually improve things.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Entrenched politicians are not too curious about changing laws that they already had a hand in creating. Why, it would be almost like admitting a mistake. Which has gotta be worse for one 'political career' than fixing a wrong to improve things.
    not wanting to swing too far towards the political in Dollar Den, but many politicians may not consider such laws as a 'mistake'. After all, incentivizing the creation of a permanent block of voters who are dependent on those same politicians for next month's welfare check / public housing subsidy can be quite helpful at re-election time.


    Example there are no supermarkets in Manhatten; you have to buy your groceries at little expensive mom-pop (or Hindu-owned) markets where prices are high due to rent, insurance, utilities, etc.
    Other than the issue of most big city governments not wanting a huge non-unionized business offering very low priced consumer goods in their midst, the 'stealth' tax issue is also lurking just below the surface. When property taxes are high rents must be high. When states enact carbon cap and trade and/or extremely tight environmental restrictions on coal fired power plants, electricity and natural gas become more expensive. When cities 'red line' police enforcement of misdemeanor crimes in certain areas, insurance costs go up !

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    not wanting to swing too far towards the political in Dollar Den, but many politicians may not consider such laws as a 'mistake'. After all, incentivizing the creation of a permanent block of voters who are dependent on those same politicians for next month's welfare check / public housing subsidy can be quite helpful at re-election time.




    Other than the issue of most big city governments not wanting a huge non-unionized business offering very low priced consumer goods in their midst, the 'stealth' tax issue is also lurking just below the surface. When property taxes are high rents must be high. When states enact carbon cap and trade and/or extremely tight environmental restrictions on coal fired power plants, electricity and natural gas become more expensive. When cities 'red line' police enforcement of misdemeanor crimes in certain areas, insurance costs go up !
    There are some supermarkets in Manhattan ( Gristedes; D'Agostino's; BRAVO ) but they are usually high end and more expensive than Stop n Shop; Food Lion or Piggly Wiggly

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    not wanting to swing too far towards the political in Dollar Den, but many politicians may not consider such laws as a 'mistake'. After all, incentivizing the creation of a permanent block of voters who are dependent on those same politicians for next month's welfare check / public housing subsidy can be quite helpful at re-election time.




    Other than the issue of most big city governments not wanting a huge non-unionized business offering very low priced consumer goods in their midst, the 'stealth' tax issue is also lurking just below the surface. When property taxes are high rents must be high. When states enact carbon cap and trade and/or extremely tight environmental restrictions on coal fired power plants, electricity and natural gas become more expensive. When cities 'red line' police enforcement of misdemeanor crimes in certain areas, insurance costs go up !
    Melonie- It's not just the recipients. The bureaucrats and other indirect beneficiaries belong to AFSCME or SEIU or the Teamsters or the Health Care Workers union. More efficient and decentralized social service delivery would result in a loss of jobs for a lot of welfare service providers.

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ she couldn't support herself to start with ! This is probably the reason that she moved to NY in the first place. Not to worry though. All she has to do is quit her job, sign up for public housing + welfare + food stamps + medicaid + utility bill assistance and she'll be just fine ! Might even want to pump out a couple of additional kids to boost the benefit level !

    Obviously I'm being facetious. The real problem here is the 'moral hazard' created by the state of NY's social welfare structure, which is amply demonstrated in this specific instance i.e. the state makes sure that the woman can't afford to keep working at a low skill level job, but is perfectly willing to take care of her and her children if she's permanently unemployed !
    Yes but those things are hard to get to.. not so much as food stamps but medicaid and welfare and housing can take forever.. I have been on everything before.. It took a month do get foodstamps.. It took about 8 months to get medicaid..I signed up for housing 2 years ago, and Im still on the waiting list.. but I dont need it know since Ive started dancing.. but I never could get welfare.. and it was only going to be about 200 a month.. and I tryed to get bill asst. once when I had lost my job but they didnt have the funds..

    Its hard be a young single mom if you dont have help from family or a man


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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    not wanting to swing too far towards the political in Dollar Den, but many politicians may not consider such laws as a 'mistake'. After all, incentivizing the creation of a permanent block of voters who are dependent on those same politicians for next month's welfare check / public housing subsidy can be quite helpful at re-election time.
    I get the political implications of the politician rescuer. That's why it has to cover many congressional districts -- to average out the political influence and include input from those who actually want an improved system that is internally consistent, easier to administer, harder to loophole around, and fairer to those really needing the most asdsistance and at the same time giving opportunity and incentive for those people to better help themselves out of their bad situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Other than the issue of most big city governments not wanting a huge non-unionized business offering very low priced consumer goods in their midst, the 'stealth' tax issue is also lurking just below the surface. When property taxes are high rents must be high. When states enact carbon cap and trade and/or extremely tight environmental restrictions on coal fired power plants, electricity and natural gas become more expensive. When cities 'red line' police enforcement of misdemeanor crimes in certain areas, insurance costs go up !
    Sometimes rents are high because those rents you pay have to suport a family, regardless of anyone's tax situation. I've also noticed that many times in low rent districts, many prices ae high. I figured it was just exploitation of people who didn't know better or those who were constrained to buy there.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ she couldn't support herself to start with ! This is probably the reason that she moved to NY in the first place. Not to worry though. All she has to do is quit her job, sign up for public housing + welfare + food stamps + medicaid + utility bill assistance and she'll be just fine ! Might even want to pump out a couple of additional kids to boost the benefit level !

    Obviously I'm being facetious. The real problem here is the 'moral hazard' created by the state of NY's social welfare structure, which is amply demonstrated in this specific instance i.e. the state makes sure that the woman can't afford to keep working at a low skill level job, but is perfectly willing to take care of her and her children if she's permanently unemployed !
    This is complete nonsense. On a national level, welfare reform was passed in 1996 that limits the amount of time one can stay on welfare. At a local level, in New York City, a strong emphasis was placed on work requirements for those receiving public assistance.

    http://www.urban.org/publications/410542.html

    Where did you get this idea that anyone can sign up for public housing and welfare, just sit at home and watch television all day, and collect money? This does not happen in the real world.

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    This is complete nonsense. On a national level, welfare reform was passed in 1996 that limits the amount of time one can stay on welfare. At a local level, in New York City, a strong emphasis was placed on work requirements for those receiving public assistance.

    http://www.urban.org/publications/410542.html

    Where did you get this idea that anyone can sign up for public housing and welfare, just sit at home and watch television all day, and collect money? This does not happen in the real world.
    You are correct to some extent. While welfare reform instituted work requirements and time limits it did NOT eliminate AFDC. New York's level of benefits ( including Medicaid) is higher than almost any other state. And for decades it not only drew poor people from elsewhere in the country and Puerto Rico but other states used to pay the busfare of their poor people to send them to N.Y.C.

    The fact remains that New York State and New York City still have far more than their respective shares of poor people and that many do receive various forms of subsidies and other public assistance.

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    Default Re: NYC Starts Charging Rent at Homeless Shelters

    ^^^ I would also add that New York gov't chose NOT to adhere to certain tenets of the 1996 welfare reform package ... like for example welfare mother's cash payments not growing larger if they enroll a 4th (or 5th or 6th) child. Under the federal mandate, having a 4th child would not result in an increase in welfare assistance. But under New York's policy, every additional child still equals an increase in the monthly welfare check !

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