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Thread: protectionism Obama style ...

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    Default protectionism Obama style ...

    (snip)"Is this what the first trade war of the global economic crisis looks like?

    Ordered by Congress to "buy American" when spending money from the $787 billion stimulus package, the town of Peru, Ind., stunned its Canadian supplier by rejecting sewage pumps made outside of Toronto. After a Navy official spotted Canadian pipe fittings in a construction project at Camp Pendleton, Calif., they were hauled out of the ground and replaced with American versions. In recent weeks, other Canadian manufacturers doing business with U.S. state and local governments say they have been besieged with requests to sign affidavits pledging that they will only supply materials made in the USA.

    Outrage spread in Canada, with the Toronto Star last week bemoaning "a plague of protectionist measures in the U.S." and Canadian companies openly fretting about having to shift jobs to the United States to meet made-in-the-USA requirements. This week, the Canadians fired back. A number of Ontario towns, with a collective population of nearly 500,000, retaliated with measures effectively barring U.S. companies from their municipal contracts -- the first shot in a larger campaign that could shut U.S. companies out of billions of dollars worth of Canadian projects."(snip)




    The CAW members at Aradco in Windsor, a working-class city on the banks of the Detroit River, had defied a plant closing with no compensation including no severance pay by Aradco’s parent company, Catalina Precision Products. Catalina halted production the week of March 8, when Chrysler severed its contracts with the corporation, which stamps parts for Chrysler.

    “The workers here have decided to take over the plant. That’s the only thing we have in order to try to get the monies that are owed to us,” said Gerry Farnham, president of CAW Local 195, to the press March 18.

    Catalina refused to pay the workers their severance, vacation pay and other benefits. Almost all of Aradco’s supplies are sold to Chrysler LLC, owned by the private-equity firm Cerebus Capital Management. The same is true for Aramco, another subsidiary of Catalina. Chrysler is now threatening to pull out of Canada if it doesn’t receive massive wage concessions from the CAW and a bailout from the government."(snip)




    (snip)WINDSOR -- Saying it has no new product to offer now or in the foreseeable future, General Motors pulled the plug on its Windsor Transmission plant with "finality" on Monday, putting 1,400 employees out of work.

    Arturo Elias, president of GM Canada Ltd., came to Windsor personally to break the news to the plant’s staff, ending years of speculation and politicking regarding the factory’s future.

    In separate shift meetings with all 1,200 members of CAW Local 1973 and the plant’s 200 salaried employees, Elias said the closure had nothing to do with the City of Windsor or the quality of the workforce.

    GM simply has no replacement product for Windsor to build, Elias said, now that market has shifted from four-speed automatic transmissions to five and six-speed gearboxes. The Windsor plant, built in 1920, will close in the second quarter of 2010, he told employees.

    “This extremely difficult decision in no way reflects on our excellent Windsor workforce or their outstanding track record in producing great transmissions,” Elias said in a statement.

    The CAW first learned of the decision during contract talks in Toronto on Friday. The union and company spent the weekend negotiating for a plant closure agreement and buyouts for the workforce.

    GM Canada told its Windsor employees last month that the company would no longer produce the automatic four-speed transmission they assemble after mid 2010. But there was no word then about the plant’s future.

    Most of the area’s politicians have spent the last 18 months urging GM to find a new product for the Windsor plant and pledging assistance. But the decision to close the factory came down suddenly and without any recourse, MPP Sandra Pupatello (L -- Windsor West) said."(snip)

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    Negativism Melonie style ...

    yawn.

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    Come on, hockeybobby, Melonie is helping us understand what's going on. She's able to see beyond "smoke and mirrors", not everybody has such an ability.
    She's taking her time to educate us, we should be more appreciative.

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    The underlying point of course is that GM and Chrysler now have a new de-facto CEO ... and one who owes a big debt to the UAW not the CAW !!!

    America also has a president who has moved from anti-NAFTA sound bytes to anti-NAFTA actions ... from the American content purchasing rule of the stimulus package to banning Mexican truckers within US borders to the highest percentage of GM / Chrysler plant closings just happening to take place in Canada.

    To put things in perspective, I highly doubt that American suppliers will be crying over a Canadian population of 500,000 refusing to buy American products for public projects. Somehow the thought of an American population of 250,000,000 being banned from buying Canadian products for public projects is probably a bit more worrisome for Canadian manufacturers.

    ... but hey, feel free to keep on paying those high Canadian taxes and viewing Obama through rose colored glasses ! In this case at least, what's bad for Mexican and Canadian companies is good for American union workers !


    I'm not actually trying to 'educate' anybody ! I merely try to seek out news coverage of (what some consider) important developments that mainstream news media chooses to ignore, spin right out of orbit, or confine to the back page. I also seek to point out possible 'connections'.

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    We don't have enough money to save the whole fucking world. When the choice becomes saving their jobs or our jobs, I know where I stand. Globalism could only work when the west had excessive amounts of money that could be leaked out of the system via trade deficits, etc. Now we don't have extra money.

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    No smoke and mirrors. Nor is it a protectionist trade war. It's survival.

    The financial amplification factor is needed to get the most from the stimulus. The US debt ($787B) increase for stimulation would be a SHAM if the 'amplification' went to foreign countries. I want that stimulation to go as far as possible. Further I don't see anyone banning Americans from buying Canadian goods; it's their own choice. What the heck is wrong with buying American anyway? After all it is pretty hard for any of us to do anymore. Even a lot of our food is grown in different countries.

    Durned simple to see. Obama has a huge responsibility to see that the stimulation works as well as it can be made to. What an American outcry I would hear if only labor and not goods purchased were from the US stimulus. The article is just more 'sky is falling' alarmist drivel by those whose concept is different. If Canada is spending their own debt for stuimulation, I hope theirs is very effective also. But I don't want my portion of that debt to solve their problems; we have huge enough problems of our own.

    (Personally I didn't have a part in creating this debt, and I didn't support those who did any more than I absolutely had to. Sorry, Canada, the US caused it but I had no part in US corporations (and government) duping other countries with these fly-by-night schemes that caused it.)

    Too bad about the Windsor GM transmission plant. We had a big Chrysler product transmission plant right here in Syracuse that just went under too.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    I'm not actually trying to 'educate' anybody ! I merely try to seek out news coverage of (what some consider) important developments that mainstream news media chooses to ignore, spin right out of orbit, or confine to the back page. I also seek to point out possible 'connections'.
    It's a little more directed than that. Sometimes those articles are pretty far out in right field. I have yet to see you post an article that wasn't conservative and/or pro-business. Not much that is pro-business is also pro-citizen; it's an adversarial position that those business articles take.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    ^^^ not to drift off topic, but there is usually no shortage of LEFT field business news articles from the NY Times, CNN, MSNBC, CNBC, Washington Post, etc.

    Not much that is pro-business is also pro-citizen
    IMHO this is a matter of how much a particular citizen's personal finances depend on private sector business success, versus that citizen's personal finances depending on gov't programs / union pay scales.

    What the heck is wrong with buying American anyway? After all it is pretty hard for any of us to do anymore. Even a lot of our food is grown in different countries
    And why do you suppose this is the case ? You don't suppose that a rising minimum wage, rising property taxes, rising regulatory / compliance costs for fertilizer and pesticides etc. had anything to do with foreign food suppliers underselling US producers out of business - in a manner very similar to Kia / Hyundai and soon Mahindra and Chery underselling US auto producers out of business ? The US gov't already has mandates in place that gov't agencies must purchase new vehicles with X amount of 'domestic content'. I wonder if the same is true for gov't purchases of food products ?

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    And why do you suppose this is the case ?
    Mostly it is marketing techniques, consumer baiting, government foreign trade policies, international exchange rates, and corporate profitability. Except for unions, the rest of us are not guaranteed any salary adjustments, and those that get them usually see them just a little under inflation rates. For those corporations that have to be 'encouraged' to raise rates, still well below inflation rates, theu would do little on their own, forcing emplyees even further into destitution, when they could, instead, provide training to increase their worths as employees.
    Last edited by threlayer; 05-17-2009 at 10:42 AM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    Sorry Melonie, didn't know the word "educate" would be inappropriate here. I guess I should have said inform.

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ...You don't suppose that a ... rising regulatory / compliance costs for fertilizer and pesticides etc. had anything to do with foreign food suppliers underselling US producers out of business ... ?
    You would actually prefer to see US agriculture be responsible for noxious run-offs causing polluted crops and rivers, carcinogenic fertilizers and pesticides, price instability, etc? Besides the FDA's look-away tactics of recent years, most of the food problems we have had have come from lower cost, foreign production regions and techniques. I realize that we don't actually have to be concerned about those food producing countries' pollution problems affecting their residents, any more than we have to be concerned about foreign sweatshops producing cheap, dollar store knick-knacks and clothing.

    You know, it actually takes some effort to keep things healthy for human consumers and farming environments. Foreign food manufacturers and agribusiness in this country would be only too glad to reduce their burdens of safety if government would let them. This is analogous to the safety of a 1950s car compared to what you are driving now. Yes, it would abe a lot cheaper if you don't factor in the cost of safety and human life.
    Last edited by threlayer; 05-17-2009 at 10:53 AM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    ^^^ this comes back to the same NIMBY argument that has already been raised re the outsourcing of US manufacturing activities. Arguably, when new US regulations increase the cost / difficulty of producing food on American farms to the point where that food production is outsourced, the total level of global problems due to fertilizers and pesticides, polluted rivers etc. winds up being much higher after food production has been outsourced since the foreign producers don't even have to follow the basic levels of regulation that were formerly in place in the USA ! Thus from a standpoint of America's own back yard things seem better ... but from a global standpoint they are actually worse. In exchange America loses jobs, tax revenues, self-reliance on the source of important products, and de-facto controls over product safety.

    Arrguably, Obama is aware of all of this. He arguably also knows that the only way to stop this is to 'lock down' the US borders against much lower cost imported products ... whose low cost is made possible by a lack of environmental, safety, labor etc. regulations in the producing country. While this is a realistic possibility where gov't mandates towards gov't purchases are concerned (as the original article points out), attempting to do the same throughout the 'free market' is an entirely different story. And nobody is prepared to discuss the end result of such protectionism ... i.e. a likely 30% across the board increase in prices to US consumers for everything from food to flannel to 'frigerators, with zero US wage increases to help make up for the cost difference.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-17-2009 at 05:54 PM.

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    THe less food roduction is done away from US shores, the less safe it is. Personally I don't take chances on my health for a few hundred bucks more or less per year. I doubt that any other Americans, esp those feeding people they actually care about, would either. If the FDA did a worse job than they already do, and more people would get sick, any of use would blame the President, whomever s/he is. Food quality is a very basic requirement. If your new country would be producing food for US consumption, and runoff from hog farms would contaminate food you eat, you might have a different attitude about your environment too.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    ^^^ but the ultimate problem isn't in my new country, it's in the USA. The way that US food producers are being pressured by high taxes, expensive fertilizer and pesticide regulations etc, the more the US food supply is being divided into two 'classes'. Middle class Americans like yourself are welcome to pay $1 each for US grown organic tomatoes. However, 'poor' Americans who cannot afford to feed their entire family paying organic prices are forced to buy Mexican grown tomatoes at 3 for $1 ... and take their chances regarding food safety.

    The object of Obama protectionism in this context is to lock down the US border against imported 33 cent tomatoes, thus forcing the purchase of US grown tomatoes at $1 each ... ok maybe 67 cents because volume will increase. To rich people this doesn't matter since only a tiny fration of their incomes is spent on food. To extremely poor social welfare benefit recipients this doesn't matter either since benefit levels will be increased to accomodate the higher prices. But to working class Americans, such a gov't mandate forces them to allocate more of their incomes toward their food budget, and adds to the 'moral hazard' as to whether it's 'worth it' to keep on working. And to middle class Americans it means that both their food budget and their taxes will go up ... in order to pay for the now higher costs of providing food stamp benefits ! And in the end, taxes on the rich will also be raised in order to fund the now higher costs of providing food stamp benefits !

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    well melonie u left the usa to potect ur income from rising taxes so who are you to talk !!!!!!

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    Quote Originally Posted by wild slash View Post
    well melonie u left the usa to potect ur income from rising taxes so who are you to talk !!!!!!
    I don't understand this comment. Are you saying her information is false?

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    Quote Originally Posted by wild slash View Post
    well melonie u left the usa to potect ur income from rising taxes so who are you to talk !!!!!!
    So what ? She acted in her own economic interest. Just like everybody else.

    She's supposed to stay here in the U.S. and pay over what SHE sweated for just to make YOU happy ?

    There are a lot of people who'd like to join her but simply cannot.

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    There are a lot of people who'd like to join her but simply cannot.
    How many approximately?

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ but the ultimate problem isn't in my new country, it's in the USA. The way that US food producers are being pressured by high taxes, expensive fertilizer and pesticide regulations etc, the more the US food supply is being divided into two 'classes'.
    This problem is universal, when other countries look at it. The real problem to worldwide growers is that of volume prodiction of the food supply without pollution and poisoning. When they realize that they need to deal with their opwn problem, their foodsuffs will cost them quite a bit more. And since most of them cannot/will not fix their problems, their populations will have to deal with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Middle class Americans like yourself are welcome to pay $1 each for US grown organic tomatoes. The object of Obama protectionism in this context is to lock down the US border against imported 33 cent tomatoes, thus forcing the purchase of US grown tomatoes at $1 each ... ok maybe 67 cents because volume will increase. To rich people this doesn't matter since only a tiny fration of their incomes is spent on food. To extremely poor social welfare benefit recipients this doesn't matter either since benefit levels will be increased to accomodate the higher prices. But to working class Americans, such a gov't mandate forces them to allocate more of their incomes toward their food budget, and adds to the 'moral hazard' as to whether it's 'worth it' to keep on working. And to middle class Americans it means that both their food budget and their taxes will go up ... in order to pay for the now higher costs of providing food stamp benefits ! And in the end, taxes on the rich will also be raised in order to fund the now higher costs of providing food stamp benefits !

    If US bought (tomatoes or whatever) food without any regard to our own safety or the effect on our agribusiness, we would have lose big and small businesses and would have poisoned many people, necessitating huge healthcare costs. (I grew well over 200 large! tomatoes last year from 4 plants in my yard. I think it cost me $10, not counting the water, transportation to acquire the plants, and annual charges on my hose and other tools.) Those who would like de-regulation are welcome to eat those melamine-infused chinese imports or bacteria-infested food grown with uncontrolled planting practices. Personally I cannot afford to take those chances, and I'd hesitate to depend on the FDA import inspections.

    Thanks for the comments; though I have no idea what your watchword, 'moral hazard' means..
    Last edited by threlayer; 05-18-2009 at 07:24 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    Thanks for the comments; though I have no idea what your watchword, 'moral hazard' means..
    From Wiki and other sources ...

    "Moral hazard is the prospect that a party insulated from risk may behave differently from the way it would behave if it were fully exposed to the risk."

    "Moral hazard arises because an individual or institution does not take the full consequences and responsibilities of its doings, and therefore has a tendency to act less carefully than it alternately would, leaving another party to hold some responsibility for the consequences of those actions"

    "Credence qualities involve both “simple” quality risks (i.e. the risk of being deceived with regard to a product’s quality category) and “serious” health risks (i.e. the risk of using or consuming substances which are harmful). While being tantamount to technological practices and while leading to downstream diseconomies and unacceptable material outcomes such as consumers’ exposure to increased residue levels, the threat of opportunistic malpractice has been labelled moral hazard, emphasising both the underlying cause of risk and the direction of potential countermeasures."


    In this context, one type of 'moral hazard' exists in the case of foreign food producers who are tempted to use lowest cost practices in terms of pesticides and fertilizers and unskilled labor in order to maximize profits - because they know that, if and when a 'toxic food' discovery occurs re product imported into the USA, it is next to impossible for the USA to actually trace the responsible source. They also know that it is even more impossible for the USA to seek changes in foreign country regulations governing the foreign supplier, or for the USA to seek compensation from the 'guilty' supplier. Also the foreign country and the foreign food supplier bear no costs whatsoever regarding American health care made necessary by the consumption of imported 'toxic food'.

    The other type of 'moral hazard' exists when Americans receiving social welfare benefits don't care how much a tomato costs, since they are 'buying' that tomato with food stamps which personally cost them nothing !

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 05-18-2009 at 02:01 PM.

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    Default Re: protectionism Obama style ...

    ^^ I get it. It's like a President who would declare war on a country if he gets a lot of others to go along with him, absolving him of individual responsibility for doing so.

    Given a little more thought, I could come up with a LOT better name for that.

    I wouldn't say that the Chinese adulterating milk products with melamine got away with it. China has caught them and given them the death penalty. I could see the US wishing we also had a severe penalty for doing the same with US food growers. Hoping for the best, we use reglations and inspections to avoid most of those catastrophes. Yes, caution costs a bit more, but it does so much more.
    Last edited by threlayer; 05-23-2009 at 05:46 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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