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Thread: Difficult Question????

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    The following quote sums this topic up perfectly:

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden_Rule View Post
    ANYONE YOU PAY TO SPEND TIME WITH YOU IS NOT YOUR REAL FRIEND. REAL FRIENDSHIP ISN'T PURCHASED. What you have is a fantasy friend who you seem to be pretending is a real friend.
    If you are paying her for her time, she is not your friend, she is your employee, albeit a very friendly employee, but an employee nonetheless.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

    If you're in your twenties and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're in you're forties and aren't a conservative, you have no brain - Winston Churchill

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    God/dess Elvia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden_Rule View Post
    OK. That's honest and straight forward enough.

    What about if it causes harm to another? Like some guy goes through his retirement money, or the rent, because he is a love sick PL with self-control issues?

    Do you think, and I am asking an honest question here, that if you see someone falling over the cliff because you helped send him in that direction, that you have any obligation to pull him back from the brink before he falls to a very dicey landing? [Its never the fall that kills you. Its the sudden stop. ]

    This is a poor analogy. For one, how on Earth is the dancer supposed to know how much money the guy has to spend? There's no way to know if he can afford what he chooses to spend his money on or not. Doing our job can't be equated to sending someone to fall off a cliff. Would you have sales people start questioning customers as to whether they should really be spending all that money on a new car, or expensive clothes, etc? Of course not. Because it's none of their business and it would only serve to offend the customer.

    I'm sure the OP is well aware that there are prostitutes that he could pay to have sex with him. That's not how he chooses to spend his money. Whether he can afford to be spending his money how he chooses to isn't something anyone here really knows. And it's no one's job to save him from himself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    As Katherine Hepburn put it so eloquently " Nature is what we were put here to rise above"

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvia View Post
    This is a poor analogy. For one, how on Earth is the dancer supposed to know how much money the guy has to spend? There's no way to know if he can afford what he chooses to spend his money on or not. Doing our job can't be equated to sending someone to fall off a cliff. Would you have sales people start questioning customers as to whether they should really be spending all that money on a new car, or expensive clothes, etc? Of course not. Because it's none of their business and it would only serve to offend the customer.

    I'm sure the OP is well aware that there are prostitutes that he could pay to have sex with him. That's not how he chooses to spend his money. Whether he can afford to be spending his money how he chooses to isn't something anyone here really knows. And it's no one's job to save him from himself.
    Well, I guess you'd have no problems then with the bankers who gave people mortgages they couldn't reasonably afford.

    I think what you are doing is rationalizing your behavior to relieve yourself of any responsibility for the situation.

    Rich or poor, if the guy willingly spends hundreds to thousands per week, week after week, on one dancer , clearly there is something wrong with the picture. You may not have created the problem, but if you cultivate it, you own at least a part of it, especially if puts the guy in a financial death spiral. I've seen ( and heard of ) it happening several times and while these guys might have been accidents waiting to happen, that doesn't exonerate the people who facilitated and profited from that crash.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

    If you're in your twenties and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're in you're forties and aren't a conservative, you have no brain - Winston Churchill

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    God/dess Elvia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    ^^ Why are you addressing me specifically? You do realize I'm not the girl the OP is talking about, right? That would be quite a coincidence.

    The OP did not say he is in a financial death spiral, or anything to suggest it. He does not seem to expect anything to happen OTC. He seems to understand what's going on. In fact, he seems pretty calm and happy with the arrangement, save for one issue that he wants to address with her. Maybe he's a multi-millionaire and can easily afford such things. If that's the case, I don't see anything wrong with him spending his money in a strip club. It's no worse than spending the same amount on luxury cars or expensive vacation rentals or anything else that's non-essential.

    Besides, most of the guys here don't seem to be so concerned about the amount he's spending. They're concerned that he's not getting laid for that amount of money. My point is, I don't think that constitutes a rip off, or financial manipulation. He knows that's not really what strip clubs are about. I don't feel bad for anyone who spends a lot of money in a strip club and doesn't get sex, especially when the gentleman in question doesn't even seem bothered by it. So why should anyone else be bothered by it?

    We are not bankers. We don't have the ability, or even the right, to pry when it comes to our customer's financial standing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    As Katherine Hepburn put it so eloquently " Nature is what we were put here to rise above"

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    Well, I guess you'd have no problems then with the bankers who gave people mortgages they couldn't reasonably afford.
    Except it's really not the banker's money. It belongs to the depositors.

    I see alot written on the boards by some guys about personal responsibility, especially when it comes to the economically disadvantaged. But it seems to go out the window when this subject come up. Then they expect the dancer to turn into the White Knight.

    But then, who knows better just how emotionally vulnerable men really are, than another man.

    WAAAH! Save me from myself!

    If it wasn't strippers, it'd be alcohol or gambling or whatever. Self destructive behavior always finds an outlet.
    Last edited by Dirty Ernie; 06-07-2009 at 10:37 PM. Reason: clarification

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    ^^^ I was not intending to address you specifically, but the idea that the dancer is 100% blameless when something like GR descibed happens. It was a collective "you" I was addressing. I was not referring at all to anything the OP posted but rather the last few posts in the thread which are somewhat off-topic.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

    If you're in your twenties and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're in you're forties and aren't a conservative, you have no brain - Winston Churchill

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post

    I think what you are doing is rationalizing your behavior to relieve yourself of any responsibility for the situation.
    Just FYI, this is the line that threw me off. Usually when someone refers to "your behavior" they actually mean "your behavior." Especially when we're referring to a specific dancer at the beginning of this thread.

    Whether you're referring to the OP's situation or not (and I was BTW, I think that's clear) I still don't see how dancers can be expected to know what our customers personal finances are like. If someone wants to buy a string of dances, I'll sell them. If someone prefers to pay to chat, I'll do that too. If someone wants to do extended VIP, let's go. Just like when I worked in retail. If a woman came up to the register with an armload of designer handbags and a credit card, I swipe it, bag it up and tell her to have a nice day.

    I'm not sure how you would have us verify whether they can afford that or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    As Katherine Hepburn put it so eloquently " Nature is what we were put here to rise above"

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvia View Post
    Just FYI, this is the line that threw me off. Usually when someone refers to "your behavior" they actually mean "your behavior." Especially when we're referring to a specific dancer at the beginning of this thread.
    Poor wording on my part I suppose. I was speaking only in general terms but still stand behind what I said. Sorry if you felt I was specifically impugning you.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

    If you're in your twenties and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're in you're forties and aren't a conservative, you have no brain - Winston Churchill

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvia View Post
    Whether you're referring to the OP's situation or not (and I was BTW, I think that's clear) I still don't see how dancers can be expected to know what our customers personal finances are like. If someone wants to buy a string of dances, I'll sell them. If someone prefers to pay to chat, I'll do that too. If someone wants to do extended VIP, let's go. I'm not sure how you would have us verify whether they can afford that or not.
    Well we now seem to be speaking generally. I am not talking about selling your time to a guy or what you do in the selling of that time. I am talking about guys spending thousands per week for months on end. There is nothing normal about that, especially if it is just for chat time. Whether the guy can afford it or not really isn't the question, he's still being taken advantage of for his lack of self-control.
    "never trust a big butt and a smile"-- Bell Biv DeVoe

    If you're in your twenties and aren't a liberal, you have no heart. If you're in you're forties and aren't a conservative, you have no brain - Winston Churchill

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    I am talking about guys spending thousands per week for months on end. There is nothing normal about that ...
    There are some people who consider that amount to be part of their miscellaneous expenses. I'm not one of those people! There is no arguing that he could get a better return of entertainment for his stated weekly expense.I am curious if Victor2 is thinking of changing his club mode.
    Last edited by FBR; 06-07-2009 at 03:06 PM. Reason: Fixed broken quote. They are annoying.

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Let's be honest; SC are set up to separate as much money as possible from men of diminished capacity. I'm not making a moral judgment just stating facts.

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden_Rule View Post

    Do you think, and I am asking an honest question here, that if you see someone falling over the cliff because you helped send him in that direction, that you have any obligation to pull him back from the brink before he falls to a very dicey landing? [Its never the fall that kills you. Its the sudden stop. ]
    I'm not sure if you were serious or just asking the question rhetorically and in the interest of promoting further discussion. I'll just chime in to say that I believe it is unreasonable for us to expect a dancer to agonize over the financial wherewithal of a customer other than the wherewithal of his wallet at that moment. She is not a social worker...she is there to make money. As you have stated several times in other threads, a one on one between a dancer and a customer is a free market business exchange between consenting adults. All the buyer and seller caveats apply but as I said in another post, SC's are the wild, wild west.

    Having said that, I still have enough faith in humanity to believe that if a dancer knew without a shadow of a doubt (as opposed to a sob story CS) that if she took his VIP money, he and his family would be out on the street, she would most likely decline.

    Dem's my 2 pennies.

    FBR
    Once again I have embraced my addiction and have put off the moral dilemma to another day.

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    ^While I mostly agree, I would add that there is the same spectrum of behavior in the dancer population as the rest of the world, so their would be some that would take his money regardless of their knowledge of the situation (just like there are some who not take his money even on a CS story).

    V

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    ^^

    V, I agree. That is why I said "most likely". Clearly, there are guys who would take advantage of a stripper in a bad place and desperate as well as strippers who would take similar advantage of a customer. But I like to think that most of the world goes around with reasonable civility.

    FBR
    Once again I have embraced my addiction and have put off the moral dilemma to another day.

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    ^I believe we agree. Hope for the best in people, expect the worst, and you'll be happy when they meet in the middle.

    Better quote:

    "...a pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events." Lazarus Long (Robert A. Heinlein)

    Lots of good quotes here (IMO, of course):
    Last edited by vmurphy252; 06-07-2009 at 03:49 PM. Reason: Because I can't leave stuff alone.

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvia View Post
    This is a poor analogy. For one, how on Earth is the dancer supposed to know how much money the guy has to spend?
    Averages. We are all gifted a certain amount of common sense. Some more than others but most have enough of it to be able to discern what is common from what is not.

    Would you have sales people start questioning customers as to whether they should really be spending all that money on a new car, or expensive clothes, etc? Of course not. Because it's none of their business and it would only serve to offend the customer.
    It is done all the time. It is why most states have a law that a sales contract can be invalidated during the first 72 hours [buyer's remorse laws]. It certainly is checked and double checked if credit is involved.

    So you are decidedly wrong about that

    We have all sorts of names for the type of sales people who can't or won't size up a customer and/or tries to take him for all that he's worth.

    This isn't a foreign concept I'm putting forth. Like most bits of business involving ethics, this is well trodden ground.

    .
    Fiat justitia, pereat mundus.


    BTW, while we are on the subject, is it needed to point out the obvious: That it is just possible that if you are willing to judge the worth of someone simply by what you read on a website about them it might say a whole hell of a lot more about you than it says about the person you are judging?

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Quote Originally Posted by bem401 View Post
    I've seen ( and heard of ) it happening several times and while these guys might have been accidents waiting to happen, that doesn't exonerate the people who facilitated and profited from that crash.
    There are several famous cases around here that ended in murders, etc. The "Delialah's Den" case is one.

    As a bouncer and even as a cop later on I became aware of very many, much smaller bits of business.

    Like I said, in any flim-flam [and that is what this is make no mistake about it] the victim always plays a role in their own demise. Either through greed, or in this case lust or some pathology that has them desiring have someone, anyone, to care for them. The grifter is just an expert at recognizing "the mark" and knowing what to do to work them free of their money.

    The best way to avoid it is two fold. Don't have the makings of a mark in the first place, and know how all the bunko crap works. The last will help you get the first.

    It works just like the best way to avoid being cheated at cards is to know how to cheat at cards. That way you can recognize it when you see someone else doing it.
    Fiat justitia, pereat mundus.


    BTW, while we are on the subject, is it needed to point out the obvious: That it is just possible that if you are willing to judge the worth of someone simply by what you read on a website about them it might say a whole hell of a lot more about you than it says about the person you are judging?

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Quote Originally Posted by Elvia View Post
    Besides, most of the guys here don't seem to be so concerned about the amount he's spending. They're concerned that he's not getting laid for that amount of money.
    Don't lump me in with that pool. You've seen me write nothing in that vein.

    All I'm talking about is taking advantage and not taking advantage. That doesn't require anyone getting laid, or whether someone is rich or not. It just requires a mark and an operator.

    Bunko is bunko, and a flim-flam a flim-flam. It doesn't make a difference if the mark can afford it or not.
    Fiat justitia, pereat mundus.


    BTW, while we are on the subject, is it needed to point out the obvious: That it is just possible that if you are willing to judge the worth of someone simply by what you read on a website about them it might say a whole hell of a lot more about you than it says about the person you are judging?

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Quote Originally Posted by FBR View Post
    I'll just chime in to say that I believe it is unreasonable for us to expect a dancer to agonize over the financial wherewithal of a customer other than the wherewithal of his wallet at that moment.
    Is it unreasonable to expect a bartender to be able to tell, within reason, that someone he is selling booze to should be cut off?

    Not much difference. Its an intoxicant which causes SOME people to loose the ability to think rationally. We even hold home and apartment owners legally responsible for letting someone leave their home in an intoxicated state.

    I don't think its unreasonable that if a dancer sees a guy blowing through money that she pause a moment to do something as simple as ask the guy if he can afford this, or cut a guy off who is obviously more likely to be over his head than not.

    Having said that, I still have enough faith in humanity to believe that if a dancer knew without a shadow of a doubt (as opposed to a sob story CS) that if she took his VIP money, he and his family would be out on the street, she would most likely decline.

    Dem's my 2 pennies.

    FBR
    We can hope, but some of the things dancers I have worked with - even some I call friends - have said to me in candor makes me wonder just how cold they are capable of being in that regard. [I always hope they are just kidding around]

    Quote Originally Posted by FBR View Post
    ^^

    V, I agree. That is why I said "most likely". Clearly, there are guys who would take advantage of a stripper in a bad place and desperate as well as strippers who would take similar advantage of a customer. But I like to think that most of the world goes around with reasonable civility.

    FBR
    Absolutely, and understand I would say the same thing about those guys.

    Sauce for the goose and all. Not one standard for dancers and another for their "custies".
    Last edited by Golden_Rule; 06-10-2009 at 04:40 PM.
    Fiat justitia, pereat mundus.


    BTW, while we are on the subject, is it needed to point out the obvious: That it is just possible that if you are willing to judge the worth of someone simply by what you read on a website about them it might say a whole hell of a lot more about you than it says about the person you are judging?

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden_Rule View Post
    OK. That's honest and straight forward enough.

    What about if it causes harm to another? Like some guy goes through his retirement money, or the rent, because he is a love sick PL with self-control issues?

    Do you think, and I am asking an honest question here, that if you see someone falling over the cliff because you helped send him in that direction, that you have any obligation to pull him back from the brink before he falls to a very dicey landing? [Its never the fall that kills you. Its the sudden stop. ]
    There is personal responsibility from both ends here. On one end, the customer should have been wiser with this money; if he is retired he has had enough years on him that he should have learned how to manage his money. Therefore the dancer can take a survival of the fittest approach and say his fault for being dumb enough to spend, her benefit for being smart enough to take. Then there is the responsibility of the dancer. Did she lie to him and lead him on in a dishonest manner (i.e. I love you and want to marry you with no intentions of following through) or did she just charm him without dishonestly leading him on. If she did the former, that is unethical imo and it might rest heavy on her conscience one day. The latter is just how we conduct our business. There is always some acting and lying, but I generally try not to mindfuck people too much.

    I never lie to people in this manner... i try to keep complements relatively genuine, although sometimes i have to strive to find them or exaggerate here and there. I dont tell people that i plan on getting into a relationship with them because I actually do have a conscience. If i sensed there was potential to drag a lot of money out of one lonely old guy but he didnt really have the money to spend while saving for himself and it would require a lot of duplicity, then i would most likely pass. All being said, i need to live with myself in the end . Thats about the most honest response i can give.

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    ^You're very reassuring. I hope that most people feel like you do.

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden_Rule View Post
    IF they use unethical tactics to do so, I most certainly do.
    I'm sorry, but I nearly giggled when I read this. Who ever told you this line of work was about ethics had NO idea what they're talking about. People protest this business because it's against their personal ethics/morals. There are laws against how close clubs can open to certain structures (schools, hospitals, churchs, etc) because people believe it's not "ethical" to run this kind of business nearby. Just about the only truly ethical thing a dancer or customer can really do is not steal money directly, slip each other roofies, and (hopefully) not proposition/perform extras, and we all know that still happens from more often than we'd like to admit it does.
    I'm not saying that individual custies and dancers don't have ethics, by any stretch of the imagination! I'm glad to know that a good number of us do, but like any other form of entertainment, ethics are one of the last things to come to mind in this job.

    But as for the OP's question- there are several holes here. He says that he sees her OTC also, plus several hours ITC. If you're spending money to just sit and talk for hours, your time is not so limited as you claim. On a purely professional note, I would say either A) pay her more for her time, or B) pay other dancers for dances while she dances for others.
    This is a job. She needs to treat it like one ITC. That means she is going to hustle for as much cash as she can. If this offends you, spend less of your friendly time with her ITC. If she gets less friendly with less money, then she is not truly a friend.

    Just my opinion...
    Exotic dancing is like any other job.
    If you work in an office, you wear dress shoes and a suit.
    If you work in a restaraunt, you wear skid resistant shoes and a uniform.
    If you work in a strip club, you wear 7" stilettos and lycra g-strings.

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    I would just see this transaction like a VIP (even if it's in the general club). If he paid for the time, then she should be focused on him for that time. If they haven't defined the parameters around the transaction, they need to do so, especially since it sounds like he has an issue with what he perceives as his received value. That being said, he can't expect her to just hang with him ITC for hours on end without being sufficiently compensated. I just think the level of compensation needs to be agreed upon.

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Elvia saved me the trouble of an extended reply with her excellent summation of my opinion, and Golden Rule has offered the much needed base to this acid pool several times - that this is kinda off topic from the OP's post. I will do so now as well.

    V2 never said the money was a problem. ~$200k annually on a dancer? Hell, that's not even one Ferrari 599, and I know several people with several of those. Is that exorbitant to those of us in what Commander has affectionately got us referring to as Class X? Yeah, it is. BUT THE OP DOESN'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT SO WHO ARE WE TO QUESTION HIS ISSUES IF ANY OR THE DANCERS ETHICS?

    Victor - you are paying her a rate that is on the very high side of what these girls can make in the highest end of clubs. Should you request that she not leave you when you are inside the club ad paying her at that rate, that is a VERY reasonable request. One respondent indicated that the managers might be taking issue with her spending so much time with you and the club not profiting. If you are paying her this money directly, consider spending it on the VIP room where the house gets a cut, and paying her the "rest" as a tip, that should quell any concerns there. Lastly, somebody stated that you should buy dances from other girls while she is away. Not a bad idea if you have any interest in any of the other girls.

    As for ading my personal 2 cents - not going to take the time. I've only made 40 or so posts on these forums since I joined, and I think already managed to make everyone more than familiar with most of my views, lol.

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    Default Re: Difficult Question????

    Now that I've actually read the last few post, I'd like to add in-

    Golden_Rule, you can't compare the way a person spends their money to letting them leave a bar or residence intoxicated. With intoxication, there is the immediate concern of bodily harm and risk of life! Money on the other hand, there is not SO much worry attached. Sure, some one is stupid and spends more in a club than they should and have to choose between food and rent that month. Like anyone with half a brain, they'll buy food. The worst that would happen in such a situation is that they will get a little black market next to some number and they'll pay extra the following month.
    When it comes right down to it, THEY know how much they have on them, not the dancer. Say I have $500 for the week on my person, then have a $50 cell phone bill and $300 rent to pay this week. I know for a fact that I have to pay $350 in bills and let's take out an extra $100 for food and tobacco this week, that's $450 that I should not spend. Before I even go out to party and have fun, I'm going to put that money away and only carry the $50 I can afford to spend. It's called a sense of responsibility. Even at 19, I know that. If he has a certain amount of money he shouldn't spend, he should be responsible enough to set that aside before spending.
    I will say though that you're right about the asking if they can afford it. A guy with a sob story would get a straight forward "then you shouldn't be here" from me. Asking teasingly "are you sure you can afford this?" could go either way- if they say they can, that's their choice and I'm not responsible for it. If they are obviously getting worried though, that's time to say "see you later".

    Athena made this point pretty clear. As long as we're not making false promises (ie- "let's get married", "I'll do this for X amount extra", etc) and outright lying, we are not to blame because they weren't responsible themselves.
    Exotic dancing is like any other job.
    If you work in an office, you wear dress shoes and a suit.
    If you work in a restaraunt, you wear skid resistant shoes and a uniform.
    If you work in a strip club, you wear 7" stilettos and lycra g-strings.

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