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Thread: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

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    God/dess threlayer's Avatar
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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Graduates in the hard sciences, some engineering fields, or medicine/biology are still in demand.

    Remember that it is the employer that applies for the H1B Visas, not the workers. You see, the lowered H1B salaries reported by Melonie is odd (or corrupt) if true because the law itself has this WAGE provision:

    Again.....
    Employers must attest that wages offered are at least equal to the actual wage paid by the employer to other workers with similar experience and qualifications for the job in question, or alternatively, pay the prevailing wage for the occupation in the area of intended employment, whichever is greater. By signing the LCA (Labor Condition Application), the employer attests that: prevailing wage rate for area of employment will be paid; working conditions of position will not adversely affect conditions of similarly employed American workers; place of employment not experiencing labor dispute involving a strike or lockout.
    I guess we shouldn't be surprised that businesses can circumvent this law too. Wonder if that is a treasonous offense?
    Last edited by threlayer; 07-03-2009 at 05:11 PM.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Earl_the_Pearl View Post
    Nationally 26% are collage graduates but in some cities over 50% are. That is a lot of people wanting high paying jobs.
    It is a matter of the law of supply and demand.

    You corrupt the supply, then you corrupt the demand.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by threlayer View Post
    Graduates in the hard sciences, some engineering fields, or medicine/biology are still in demand.
    But even the situation for those people is getting more and more bleak.

    My moms been a nurse for almost 30 years. She's always been able to get a job anywhere. She left a job at an oncology clinic, and was amazed to discover that, for 6 months, she couldn't find a hospital or clinic that was hiring nurses in our city. They were all scaling back, getting back towards the minimal legal ratio of nurses to patients. She had to take a job almost 3 hours away. She told me "I NEVER thought I'd see the day when a nurse couldn't get a job in town!"

    Just the other day I heard someone on the radio who had gotten a degree in mechanical engineering over a year ago, and was still working at a car wash. He said competition had just gotten so stiff. Everyone wanted more experience then he had. They expected several years of internship, and as a graduate, he was no longer eligible for the majority of internships, and didn't know how he could put in the hours required at so many internships anyway while still trying to support himself working at a car wash.

    It makes one wonder if what's in demand today, would still be so in demand by the time one got out of school.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    As Katherine Hepburn put it so eloquently " Nature is what we were put here to rise above"

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Competition maybe due to the H1B visa workers and/or the general economy. Should be plenty of ME openings in the wind energy and energy conservation areas. Maybe soon in more efficient engine design, even diesel. If we go toward a mnore electric economy, plenty of jobs in utilities and related usage technology.

    If the US depends on other countries to do that sort of work for us (shame on us), then he may have to move.

    About nursing, plenty of employer compeition for nurses here, even billboard advertising.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    It makes one wonder if what's in demand today, would still be so in demand by the time one got out of school
    The larger question, of course, is whether or not what's in demand today will REMAIN in demand for the next 10-15 years necessary for most 'professionals' to pay back their student loans !!!


    Should be plenty of ME openings in the wind energy and energy conservation areas
    agreed in the short term, while gov't subsidies last. But as the Carter era biofuels history snows, and the recent ( suppressed ) Spanish green energy economic study shows, the true economics of wind energy is a huge loser ... meaning that without continued gov't spending on subsidies the entire industry will quickly fall apart. Same is true for ME jobs involving bridges / roads, which are similarly dependent on continued gov't based 'stimulus' spending. From a risk management standpoint, potential ME college students are betting a huge student loan and 4 years worth of lost income against the future green energy subsidies policy and 'public project' spending policy of a future US gov't ... which may change drastically in 2012 at exactly the time they will be graduating !


    Maybe soon in more efficient engine design, even diesel
    true, but this will probably take place in Italy ( new Chrysler owner ), India ( imminent low cost Mahindra diesel truck imports ), or Germany ( Volkswagen is world leader in high efficiency diesel tech, but US emission regs keep out the majority of these engines)

    He said competition had just gotten so stiff. Everyone wanted more experience then he had
    This is an unintended consequence of an ever increasing number of US industry closures / offshoring / low wage H1B 'professionals' being imported etc., which has already resulted in loss of jobs for experienced American engineers and other American 'professionals' of all ages. Thus new US graduates are now competing against 40 year old American 'professionals' with 10+ years of real world experience as well as with H1B 'imports'. And this competition is even 'stiffer' for new graduates of 'public' colleges, where prospective employers have reason to doubt whether the 'public' college's degree program has been 'watered down' to the point where the new graduate isn't actually qualified ( versus a 'private' college graduate and especially versus a 10+ year experienced 'professional').

    Returning to the housing market analogy, like the 'glut' of foreclosed houses available versus the number of 'qualified' home buyers, it remains to be seen if and when the aggregate hiring demand for new 'professionals' by US business / industry / gov't will again exceed the number of US 'professionals' that are available. Just like housing, as long as the available 'supply' of 'professionals' exceeds the aggregate 'demand', wage levels will remain stagnant or decline. Thus just like new home builders, bringing additional 'supply' into this market is a questionable investment. And this is even more the case when the new supply is 'substandard' (i.e. particle board houses = 'public' college graduates)


    About nursing, plenty of employer compeition for nurses here, even billboard advertising
    If you're referring to upstate NY, this is happening because A) comparative pay levels suck, B. comparative working conditions suck, C. better opportunities / lower taxes / lower cost of living available in other states is prompting 'local's to move out etc.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 07-04-2009 at 12:53 AM.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Nursing is one of those rare fields where you can literally go almost anywhere in the world and easily find a job.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Look, there's ALWAYS going to be a need for US engineers at least to work on US projects. There's lots of stuff that needs to be done where engineers have to be onsite, even if its infrastructure and pollution abatement. The only way there would not be demand is if all building, retrofits, and design in the US would stop. and it that would stop, it would stop worldwide. I've been in engineering since before you started gradeschool and I keep up with the trade journals. I'm not talking about a field in which I have NEVER worked and don't knowmuch about except news articles andindividual blogs.

    US has lost a lot of ground in technologies that are not politically popular anymore such as nuclear energy and 'clean coal'. Actually the true cost of nuclear was never positive in the US if you count permanent radioactive material, the cost of fuel enichment and processing and liability insurance for disasters of lw probability. But wind energy is such a simple technology that is almost cannot help but be successful if siting and system integration issues do not become difficult since the biggest environmental impact is visual and distortion of OTA TV reception.

    Yes, the sold a lot of Yugos and Isettas and Fiats and other junk cars decades ago. But who in their right mind wouold buy a new Indian auto design and expect it to be reliable and safe enough? I doubt it'll make a big impact in less than 8-10 years. And with the price of natural gas decreasing rapidly a lot of engine redesign work will be needed. And look at the great reviews of the Ford Fusion Hybrid; They started their recovery several years ago and likely will be doing OK within 2-3 years.

    It must be fun being a Doomsday Priestess, but not many industry experts will agree with all your prognostications. And most everyone has a more optimistic viewpoint.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Look, there's ALWAYS going to be a need for US engineers at least to work on US projects
    Yes, but this is not the same as a need existing for NEW US ENGINEERING GRADUATES. As long as unemployed US engineers exist ( and there are an increasing number of them between the ages of 25 and 65 who have seen their former employer go bankrupt, who have seen their work outsourced to India, who have seen their contracts cancelled due to budget problems with the developer or state / local gov't), new engineering graduates will find themselves competing with experienced US engineers as well as new H1B imported engineers for a DECREASING number of total US engineering jobs.

    But who in their right mind wouold buy a new Indian auto design and expect it to be reliable and safe enough?
    ... any American who needs a car to get to work, but who is unable to obtain the credit / afford the payments to buy any new car costing more than $10,000. Yugos fell by the wayside because buying one was a matter of choice. Tata Motors / Chery etc. will find a ready US market out of economic necessity, as US paychecks remain stagnant but US taxes increase / US dollar devalues making all products more expensive etc. I would also point out that it was those US mainstream media experts who missed last year's 'crash', who have been promoting 'green shoots' which are actually 'brown weeds' etc.

    not many industry experts will agree with all your prognostications. And most everyone has a more optimistic viewpoint.
    This is true if you refer to those industry experts who typically get air time / exposure in US mainstream financial media. This is not true if you look beyond US mainstream financial media.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    I was just saying you CAN'T outsource the many engineering jobs to wherever. If the salary scales goes down, both new graduates and existing engineers will have to adjust to it. Like the rest of us will. New engineers will never be able to compete with existing engineers, because experience is completely necessary and because college courses are incomplete and just give a sketchy idea of how to attack a problem. That is, unless the existing engineer has not been able to adapt to 'new', well-=accepted computerized technologies like MATLAB, AutoCAD, and SPICE etc. and many other simulation tools. And those are definitely a few older engineers and their managers close to retirement anyway. As I say, if the US becomes stagnant (with the remainder of the world's advanced countries), then we're ALL in big trouble.

    ...any American who needs a car to get to work, but who is unable to obtain the credit / afford the payments to buy any new car costing more than $10,000...
    Most of those people, as in the past, will continue to buy late-model used cars with proven records of reliability and sustainability. After all, they use them to get to work. S Korea is quite different in my estimation because they have had a lot more experience, and even the it took them any years to break into the US market. Now if you can't get in the market fast, you're not going to be successful.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Crap, I was thinking of getting trained to be a respiratory therapist but it sounds pretty dangerous.

    Forgetting things we shouldn't remember is why god invented amnesia and Tequila. - Samantha Who

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by dlabtot View Post
    Nursing is one of those rare fields where you can literally go almost anywhere in the world and easily find a job.
    It certainly HAS been. That's why my mom got into it- They loved to travel. My father would get a job teaching English at overseas universities. My mom would get a job at a nearby military base hospital. However, there seem to be fewer and fewer of those available. She told me recently that there's even a wait much of the time to get into nursing school! I asked her why, and she said that they pay for nurses to go into teaching is getting too low, no one wants to stop working in hospitals and take the pay cut to teach.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vamp View Post
    As Katherine Hepburn put it so eloquently " Nature is what we were put here to rise above"

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    I think that none of the things said in the article or opined here are universally true. Every location has a different need for different professions. This is what's different now, that some are more over-populated in some areas than previously.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    some very interesting statistics were just released regarding the starting salaries being paid to graduates of various universities ...



    As discussed earlier in the thread, state colleges dominate the bottom of the list !

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post

    As discussed earlier in the thread, state colleges dominate the bottom of the list !
    Could it be that people that go to state colleges live and work it those states?

    New Jersey Institute of Technology (NJIT)

    State Schools
    $55,100
    $104,000

    Rutgers University

    State Schools
    $50,000
    $92,900

    University of Arkansas - Little Rock (UALR)
    State Schools
    $35,800
    $57,100

    University Of North Alabama (UNA)
    State Schools
    $38,100
    $54,300

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    I can see some "doom & gloom" (current rec./dep.?? & structural changes), but also some flaws in the study.

    1) Study doesn't consider students taking part time jobs- so 4 yrs college isn't 4 yrs of "zero income" as study assumes. May not be available to everyone, but depending on degree program, internships in workforce related positions occur. These provide oppurtunities for making contacts, plus some degree of "real world" work experience.

    2) Who says that 1 must go to more expensive private college in Jr & Sr year to get a 4 yr degree? How about staying at 4 yr state school, or better yet, going to community/Jr. college for 2 yrs, then transferring to state 4 yr?? Much of the courses in 1st 2 yrs. of college are generic required courses for most any degree program, why not knock them out at a lower tuition/board cost. Going that route tilts $$ favor more into college grad column vs high school.

    Yes, it's a different world out there, vs Mel's early dancing yrs., et al. Globalization isn't going to go away. Yet, the Indias , etc that have had US $$ pouring in also needs US contract engineers, etc for their improving infrastructure.
    I'm right 96% of the time. I don't sweat the other 5% .......................

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    WOW
    this is a very interesting thread, I want to introduce myself since I've never posted anything My name is Nina and Ilive in the los angeles area CA .
    I was considering being a stripper, simply because I am a college student struggling to make ends meet. Yet I also think collegeS are just there to take poor students money, people are getting loans and what IF they DO NOT even graduate because they cant work and study full time? In my area alone for example schools like cal state long beach are saturated with inner city students who most of them are getting aid or loans and many of those students work because they are low to middle class people, and cant just got to college for x amount of years and NOT work. Many programs are impacted and just this Tuesday the state of California announced that its hiking up state tuition 20% for students, and profs are getting 10% cut AND they are cutting back enrollment meaning this spring no one will be admitted to state university(s). for example I cannot get aid, because I am not poor enough( i mean my parent are not poor enough) they want to give me loans, or I just have to pay out of my own pocket, but how will I pay out of pocket if no one wants to hire me because i don't have "experience"? EVERYONE is on the same boat here. its ridiculous OH, and NO body can graduate on time because of the budget cuts many classes are being Cut, and students are on the waiting list to take classes to graduate can you believe the absurdity? colleges just accept students knowing many wont graduate just to stick them with a fat ass LOAN----OMG, I think its slavery Id rather STRIP then deal with this BULL CRAP.

    check this out I didn't paste everything the article is here:



    and this one





    So many drop out or graduate having learned frighteningly little. Worse, they end up with McCareers.

    if you graduated in the bottom 40 percent of your high school class and went to college, 76 of 100 won’t earn a diploma, even if given 8 1/2 years. Yet colleges admit and take the money from hundreds of thousands of such students each year!

    Even worse, most of those college dropouts leave college having learned little of practical value (see below) and with devastated self-esteem and a mountain of debt. Perhaps worst of all, those people rarely leave with a career path likely to lead to more than McWages. So, it’s not surprising that when you hop into a cab or walk into a restaurant, you’re likely to meet workers who spent years and their family’s life savings on college only to end up with a job they could have done as a high school dropout.

    Perhaps yet more surprising, even the high school students who are fully qualified to attend college are increasingly unlikely to derive enough benefit to justify the often six-figure cost and four to eight years it takes to graduate--and only 40% of freshmen graduate in four years. 45% never graduate at all.
    Colleges love to trumpet the statistic that, over their lifetimes, college graduates earn more than non-graduates. But that’s terribly misleading because you could lock the college-bound in a closet for four years and they’d earn more than the pool of non-college-bound--they’re brighter, more motivated, and have better family connections.
    Too, the past advantage of college graduates in the job market is eroding: ever more students are going to college at the same time as ever more employers are offshoring ever more professional jobs. So, college graduates are forced to take some very non-professional jobs.
    For example, Jill Plesnarski holds a bachelors degree in biology from the private ($160,000 published total cost for four years) Moravian College. She had hoped to land a job as a medical research lab tech, but those positions paid so little that she opted for a job at a New Jersey sewage treatment plant. Today, although she’s since been promoted, she must still occasionally wash down the tower that holds raw sewage.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    I've seen parents mortgage their future to pay for their kids' college education, sometimes a private college--four years at a brand name private college--when you count all outlays--almost $200,000 for four years.Even with financial aid that means not-rich people spending $100,000 PER CHILD. Even four years at a University of California campus, when you really add everything, is $100,000 for one kid. And the middle class is less likely to get financial aid at a public college, so that may be the same $100,000 per child.And the reality is - and I'm going to talk about this later -- most of them take longer than four years, so that $100,000 didn't cover it. Many students take five and six years.

    Some students have financial problems and they have to work to continue going to school, so maybe they take five or six years or maybe they need to stop out or they decide to spend a semester in Europe or whatever. So, let's give them six years. What percent of students would you guess graduate from college within six years? Forty percent. Six out of ten never graduate. Again, to use the corporate metaphor, imagine a company that--out of every hundred products put on its assembly line--60 fell off the assembly line before it reached the end. How long would that company stay in business? Because we view higher education as an awesome institution rather than the rapacious business that it is, we don't think twice about it. We don't even ask that question.

    Here are some of the things colleges do. Colleges are excellent at lying in statistics. They have more statisticians per square foot than anywhere else in the world and here is what they do. How many of you ever heard a college spout the following statistic: "We get twenty thousand applicants for four thousand slots in our freshman class." How many of you have heard that statistic? Nearly everybody. And what is the implication? The implication is what colleges want you to think -- they don't want you to think behind the ivy -- they want you just to think quickly. So you think, "Well, that basically means that the college admits 4,000 out of 20,000--it must be pretty hard to get into. Very deceptive and I'll explain to you why. Most students who get admitted to a college get admitted to many colleges. So they turn down most of them and only go to one. The typical college has what's called the yield rate of twenty to forty percent, that is, out of every 100 students they admit, only 20 to 40 show up. So if a college gets 20,000 applications, to get those 4,000 slots filled, they may have to admit 16,000 students. But most colleges don't want to give you that honest statistic: "We get 20,000 applicants and we admit 16,000. No. They use this very clever wording: "We get 20,000 applicants for 4,000 slots," to make themselves look selective.

    Now let's take a look at statistics that colleges omit. Colleges, like any other business, realize that their product has to be commercial. And one of the ways that colleges make their product commercial is by offering majors that are in high demand by students, for example, journalism, art, and fashion design. If a student receives admission into a college's program such as journalism, it would seem reasonable for the student to assume that "If I major in journalism and I do a reasonably good job, I'll have a reasonable chance of making a reasonable living at it. Otherwise, why would the college offer such a major?"

    Reasonable thinking, but not real. I was sitting on a top floor of the Time-Life building a couple of years ago with a number of the editors from one of the magazines, and we were talking about this question. One of the guys said, "It is unconscionable that colleges continue to allow students to enter the journalism major programs because only a tiny fraction will ever make even a subsistence living as a journalist."

    There's nothing wrong with colleges doing that (admitting students into majors such as journalism) but there's everything wrong with not telling them what the odds are (of landing a job that pays at least a living wage.) Imagine for a moment that you went to a doctor and the doctor said, I'm going to prescribe a treatment for you and it will take you four to six years to complete, and it's going to cost you $65,000-$130,000, and the doctor did not tell you that the odds of the treatment working were one in eight. What would you do? You would sue and you would win in any court in the land. And yet, colleges routinely encourage people to take the medicine called a journalism major or a music major or a fashion design major and don't tell them that the odds are one in eight, thereby committing educational malpractice. Yet because it's college, America's revered icon, we don't even question it.

    And how could colleges do that? What could be more important than choosing a college? It's the second largest purchase a person ever makes next to a home. Aren't prospective students entitled to decent consumer information? These are supposedly non-profit organizations, these colleges. I believe, instead of those glossy brochures that are the equivalent of new car brochures, we need to offer students the equivalent of a Consumer Reports evaluation on the college:

    * With real statistics like candor about class size. Don't give me faculty-student ratio. Tell me what the real class size is likely to be for typical classes.

    * Instead of B.S. statements about financial aid like, "We attempt to meet the full financial need of all students," let's have the facts: a chart that shows for every different income and asset category, how much cash financial aid you're going to get, how much loan you're going to get and how much you're going to have to pay out of your pocket. That way, families can really compare what it's going to actually cost to attend (College A vs. College B.)
    from this article

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by nina333 View Post
    I've seen parents mortgage their future to pay for their kids' college education, sometimes a private college--four years at a brand name private college--when you count all outlays--almost $200,000 for four years.Even with financial aid that means not-rich people spending $100,000 PER CHILD. Even four years at a University of California campus, when you really add everything, is $100,000 for one kid. And the middle class is less likely to get financial aid at a public college, so that may be the same $100,000 per child.And the reality is - and I'm going to talk about this later -- most of them take longer than four years, so that $100,000 didn't cover it. Many students take five and six years.

    Some students have financial problems and they have to work to continue going to school, so maybe they take five or six years or maybe they need to stop out or they decide to spend a semester in Europe or whatever. So, let's give them six years. What percent of students would you guess graduate from college within six years? Forty percent. Six out of ten never graduate. Again, to use the corporate metaphor, imagine a company that--out of every hundred products put on its assembly line--60 fell off the assembly line before it reached the end. How long would that company stay in business? Because we view higher education as an awesome institution rather than the rapacious business that it is, we don't think twice about it. We don't even ask that question.

    Here are some of the things colleges do. Colleges are excellent at lying in statistics. They have more statisticians per square foot than anywhere else in the world and here is what they do. How many of you ever heard a college spout the following statistic: "We get twenty thousand applicants for four thousand slots in our freshman class." How many of you have heard that statistic? Nearly everybody. And what is the implication? The implication is what colleges want you to think -- they don't want you to think behind the ivy -- they want you just to think quickly. So you think, "Well, that basically means that the college admits 4,000 out of 20,000--it must be pretty hard to get into. Very deceptive and I'll explain to you why. Most students who get admitted to a college get admitted to many colleges. So they turn down most of them and only go to one. The typical college has what's called the yield rate of twenty to forty percent, that is, out of every 100 students they admit, only 20 to 40 show up. So if a college gets 20,000 applications, to get those 4,000 slots filled, they may have to admit 16,000 students. But most colleges don't want to give you that honest statistic: "We get 20,000 applicants and we admit 16,000. No. They use this very clever wording: "We get 20,000 applicants for 4,000 slots," to make themselves look selective.

    Now let's take a look at statistics that colleges omit. Colleges, like any other business, realize that their product has to be commercial. And one of the ways that colleges make their product commercial is by offering majors that are in high demand by students, for example, journalism, art, and fashion design. If a student receives admission into a college's program such as journalism, it would seem reasonable for the student to assume that "If I major in journalism and I do a reasonably good job, I'll have a reasonable chance of making a reasonable living at it. Otherwise, why would the college offer such a major?"

    Reasonable thinking, but not real. I was sitting on a top floor of the Time-Life building a couple of years ago with a number of the editors from one of the magazines, and we were talking about this question. One of the guys said, "It is unconscionable that colleges continue to allow students to enter the journalism major programs because only a tiny fraction will ever make even a subsistence living as a journalist."

    There's nothing wrong with colleges doing that (admitting students into majors such as journalism) but there's everything wrong with not telling them what the odds are (of landing a job that pays at least a living wage.) Imagine for a moment that you went to a doctor and the doctor said, I'm going to prescribe a treatment for you and it will take you four to six years to complete, and it's going to cost you $65,000-$130,000, and the doctor did not tell you that the odds of the treatment working were one in eight. What would you do? You would sue and you would win in any court in the land. And yet, colleges routinely encourage people to take the medicine called a journalism major or a music major or a fashion design major and don't tell them that the odds are one in eight, thereby committing educational malpractice. Yet because it's college, America's revered icon, we don't even question it.

    And how could colleges do that? What could be more important than choosing a college? It's the second largest purchase a person ever makes next to a home. Aren't prospective students entitled to decent consumer information? These are supposedly non-profit organizations, these colleges. I believe, instead of those glossy brochures that are the equivalent of new car brochures, we need to offer students the equivalent of a Consumer Reports evaluation on the college:

    * With real statistics like candor about class size. Don't give me faculty-student ratio. Tell me what the real class size is likely to be for typical classes.

    * Instead of B.S. statements about financial aid like, "We attempt to meet the full financial need of all students," let's have the facts: a chart that shows for every different income and asset category, how much cash financial aid you're going to get, how much loan you're going to get and how much you're going to have to pay out of your pocket. That way, families can really compare what it's going to actually cost to attend (College A vs. College B.)
    from this article
    You hit on many great points, but the one I took special interest in was the comments about journalism. That was so on the mark. I went to college for a broadcasting degree. Like any communications field, broadcasting is extremely hard to get a decent job in. Many people if they get a job in radio or tv are astounded to find out it's notoriously cheap. Many graduate with the degree and end up making minimum wage. That is if they are"lucky" to even get a job at all. I've known many who had to take jobs at stores because their skills were worthless except in broadcasting. I was smart enough to get a minor in marketing. Though the chance of being a successful broadcaster is slim to none, it hasn't stopped colleges from limiting students. Their opinion is that it's wrong to limit because that student might be the "one". My undergrad is famous for their radio department, and if they have a low rate of hires, imagine what a no name college has.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Nina, your anecdotal commentary only reinforces the claim that potential employers are increasingly 'discounting' the value of a degree from a state college. This is based on the fact that state colleges have accepted a rising percentage of 'inner city' grant recipient students that are ill-prepared for college ... which results in course curricula being watered down to avoid the college having to bear the negative publicity of astronomical 'flunk-out' rates. However, the same watered down course curricula also decreases the overall preparedness of all graduates thus the 'perceived' value of their degree by potential future employers.

    Also, your comments on actual tuition dollars spent by 'middle class' families, while true, leave out a very important financial factor. Besides having spent $ 100,000 on a child's tuition, there is also the issue that by going to college rather than working right after high school, the child is also sacrificing four years worth of potential income ... which even at $10 an hour has a cash value of some $20,000 per year. Thus when the child graduates after 4 years, the family is actually 'out' $180,000 ! On an oversimplified basis, this means that over the course of a 40 year working life, that's still $4,500 per year ( more like $7,000 per year before taxes ) that needs to be earned during each of those 40 years over and above the potential earnings possible without the degree in order to just 'break even'.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    I would physically assault someone if they offered me $23 K in NY w/ a bachelor's. Then again, I also have experience on top of my degree, but that sounds a little crazy.
    Last edited by Gia2608; 07-23-2009 at 03:41 PM. Reason: Why else? Typos
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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    And yet, colleges routinely encourage people to take the medicine called a journalism major or a music major or a fashion design major and don't tell them that the odds are one in eight, thereby committing educational malpractice.
    I think you're putting too much blame on the colleges here. It's really up to the student to do the research to see if their major will pay an adequate salary. I don't think the colleges are proclaiming that everyone who gets a journalism degree will make big bucks. There's nothing wrong with getting a journalism degree from an Ivy League school as long as you do it affordably. But if you are going to Harvard strictly on loans, that's not a good path to take.

    One thing that would be useful is a chart which indicates an appropriate amount of college debt to take on for different majors. For example:

    $5000 Art History
    $7000 English Lit
    $10000 Journalism
    $20000 Mech Engineer
    $50000 PreLaw/Med
    ...

    That way the student has an idea how much debt is proportional to the typical salary for that major. They could use that as a guide when figuring out their college finances.

    Going to college can be a beneficial experience in and of itself. You are exposed to a wide variety of ideas and people that can benefit you for the rest of your life. But people should not treat it as a free-money, 4-year, sleepover camp.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Gia2608 View Post
    I would physically assault someone if they offered me $23 K in NY w/ a bachelor's. Then again, I also have experience on top of my degree, but that sounds a little crazy.
    I live near Chicago, and unfortunately I'm seeing companies offer an even lower salary, and expecting more. Places think nothing of offering $10 hour for a job with no benefits, yet requesting a bachelors (or even masters) and experience. Doesn't matter whether someone has a degree or not. I have a masters, experience, and many skills, yet I'm not being offered even $30,000 jobs, which here is low, and much less than I previously made.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by NickT View Post
    ...One thing that would be useful is a chart which indicates an appropriate amount of college debt to take on for different majors. For example:

    ...

    That way the student has an idea how much debt is proportional to the typical salary for that major. They could use that as a guide when figuring out their college finances.

    Going to college can be a beneficial experience in and of itself. You are exposed to a wide variety of ideas and people that can benefit you for the rest of your life. But people should not treat it as a free-money, 4-year, sleepover camp.
    You have the essence of a pretty good idea.
    ...................
    I think the study is essentially flawed because, if graduates get jobs in despressed areas near where the college is located, that is likely to be reflects in the study as bias. Still, the different classes of colleges show a very wide dispersion. Further the current quality of students is completely suspect. Comparing that to my experience years ago is completely bogus.
    ...................
    Also it makes NO sense to have your parents put that much money into going to a college for partying. What a downgrade to the parents!
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    In the comparison between the two in the original article, the article assumes that Ernie and Bill are going to be continuously employed until they retire. There is no guarantee of this. The unemployment rate for people without college degrees is much higher than for people with college degrees. Having a college degree makes it more likely that Bill will spend less time unemployed than Ernie, which could make a significant difference in the amount of money they end up with.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    If the US downgrades its technical and scientific graduates and continues exporting high tech jobs and allowing work VISAs for lower paid employees, then (if no one notices and does anything about it) our country's main advantage, and that is INNOVATION and DEVELOPMENT, will disapppear. Then we will truly be on the road to hell.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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