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Thread: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    I live near Chicago, and unfortunately I'm seeing companies offer an even lower salary, and expecting more. Places think nothing of offering $10 hour for a job with no benefits, yet requesting a bachelors (or even masters) and experience. Doesn't matter whether someone has a degree or not. I have a masters, experience, and many skills, yet I'm not being offered even $30,000 jobs, which here is low, and much less than I previously made.
    Not going to lie, I have to. There are many, many jobs here paying $8- $10 an hour, so after taxes, what is that $350 take home a week, a little less? My apartment is $900 a month, and it's a one bedroom, which is pretty typical here. Nevermind my car payment, car insurance, electric, internet, credit card payments, cell phone, groceries and clothing. Obviously if a company has a dress code, you are expected to have said clothes. So even though I have an education and have worked since I was 14 fucking years old I should live with a roomate? I don't fucking think so. I think I will move to Thailand and work as a consultant to the US companies that are sending manufacturing jobs there. What do they speak in Thailand? I will order the Rosetta stone before the last pennies I have in the bank are gone.
    XoXo Gia
    Danielle Fishell (the Dish): "If the Super-Star thing doesn't work out, Gia makes a great stripper name"

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Gia2608 View Post
    Not going to lie, I have to. There are many, many jobs here paying $8- $10 an hour, so after taxes, what is that $350 take home a week, a little less? My apartment is $900 a month, and it's a one bedroom, which is pretty typical here. Nevermind my car payment, car insurance, electric, internet, credit card payments, cell phone, groceries and clothing. Obviously if a company has a dress code, you are expected to have said clothes. So even though I have an education and have worked since I was 14 fucking years old I should live with a roomate? I don't fucking think so. I think I will move to Thailand and work as a consultant to the US companies that are sending manufacturing jobs there. What do they speak in Thailand? I will order the Rosetta stone before the last pennies I have in the bank are gone.
    I don't like it either, but that's how it is right here now. It bothers me because I have two degrees, experience and skills and shouldn't have to make the same as someone with none of that. I've gotten nasty with employers offering me these low salaries. Not just me, everyone I know seems to be in this situation. I know someone with a Ph.D who was a professor who can't find a teaching job. His problem is because colleges are either going to adjunct (part time no benefits) or hiring professors from other countries (my pet peeve).

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Gia2608 View Post
    My apartment is $900 a month, and it's a one bedroom, which is pretty typical here. ..., electric, internet, ..., groceries and clothing. ...I should live with a roomate? I don't fucking think so.
    What if said roommate paid the above had a key but didn't live there full time? Top shelf adult beverages are included in the groceries if not for you for your dancer friends.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Kellydancer View Post
    I've gotten nasty with employers offering me these low salaries.
    That is counter productive and does you little good and much harm; they will never consider you for employment if you return when the economy recovers. They offer what people will accept for a new hirer. Most aren't dancers and and don't expect those wages.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Earl_the_Pearl View Post
    What if said roommate paid the above had a key but didn't live there full time? Top shelf adult beverages are included in the groceries if not for you for your dancer friends.

    I'm a big fan of liquor.
    XoXo Gia
    Danielle Fishell (the Dish): "If the Super-Star thing doesn't work out, Gia makes a great stripper name"

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    It bothers me because I have two degrees, experience and skills and shouldn't have to make the same as someone with none of that. I've gotten nasty with employers offering me these low salaries. Not just me, everyone I know seems to be in this situation. I know someone with a Ph.D who was a professor who can't find a teaching job. His problem is because colleges are either going to adjunct (part time no benefits) or hiring professors from other countries (my pet peeve).
    The underlying point here is that globalization is causing downward pressure on the pay rates of all 'professionals', because unlike the unskilled there is no gov't mandate setting a 'bottom' for US wage scales. In the absence of a labor shortage ( of which there currently is no shortage, and in all likelihood there will never again BE a shortage in the US at least ), pay rates for 'professionals' will now be driven by the world's lowest common denominator. If this means that a doctor from Pakistan is willing to come to the US under an H1B visa and work for $100k a year, US medical school graduates will be hard pressed to find any opportunities that pay significantly more. If this means that a software engineer from India is willing to come to the US under an H1B visa and work for $40k a year, US graduates will be hard pressed to find any opportunities that pay significantly more.

    The one area where global wage 'arbitrage' has been sidetracked by gov't regulation is at the unskilled end of the scale. In that regard, unskilled Chinese workers being paid $2 an hour must be compared to unskilled US workers guaranteed a $7.50 an hour minimum wage. However, the unintended consequence of the minimum wage is that it compresses US wage rate offerings into a tight range i.e $7.50 an hour for zero skills and zero responsibility, versus $9 an hour for some skills and some responsibility, versus $10 an hour for certain skilled positions requiring a college degree as others have already pointed out. Obviously this seriously kills all incentive to invest years of effort and tens of thousands of dollars in tuition for a net difference in income (after taxes) of less than $100 per week.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    College costs (tuition, etc) like healthcare has been rising faster than inflation. Soooo--- will "globalization" reach college tuition costs, resulting in college being relatively more affordable? OR, will the playing field be more like an endless loop Catch 22? It has often been said that the key to increased US competitiveness in the global marketplace is more education/training for citizenry. But, in the past several years, more US $$$, (and jobs) have flowed overseas. So, will the foreign recipients of these $$ be better positioned than US citizen to "bid" (and get) those college slots, thus further exacerbating the trade/brain drain imbalance? Tin foil hatters, grab your umbrellas!!
    I'm right 96% of the time. I don't sweat the other 5% .......................

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    I'm going to have to agree for the moment. My husband has a BS in mechanical engineering from a top 10 school. He's got over 2 years of work expeirience, graduated on the dean's list and is a very intelligent, confident-but not arrogant, and all around nice guy. So why the fuck can't he get a job?? He's got head hunters all over him - but prograhms keep getting cut due to the nasty economy and sorry state of our sorry ass state. And most of the companies that would normally be desperate for engineers have a hiring freeze.

    My dad has a masters in mechanical engineering and is also out of a job. He's gone from making 6 figures to living in a trailer, and his wife has to keep a crappy minimum wage gas station job. He's a bit of a different story, as he's a very unpleasant and stubborn sort of person and I can see why companies would be hesitant to hire him.

    Most of our friends in the engineering feild have gone off to Japan to get work. We may be next if things don't improve soon. But engineers aside, I'm amazed by all of the dancers I worked with that had college degrees, but couldn't find work. Not even that dancing pays more (it doesn't always anyway) but that there are just no damn jobs anymore it seems.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Earl_the_Pearl View Post
    That is counter productive and does you little good and much harm; they will never consider you for employment if you return when the economy recovers. They offer what people will accept for a new hirer. Most aren't dancers and and don't expect those wages.
    These aren't places I want to work. Dancing has no connection to this at all because my experience is very extensive. No, these jobs are in the salary range that someone with no college, no experience might make. Say $8 hour. Most college graduates won't take an $8 hour job. Most are places that happened to see my resume online and offered that to me.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    My husband has a BS in mechanical engineering from a top 10 school. He's got over 2 years of work expeirience, graduated on the dean's list and is a very intelligent, confident-but not arrogant, and all around nice guy. So why the fuck can't he get a job?? He's got head hunters all over him - but prograhms keep getting cut due to the nasty economy and sorry state of our sorry ass state. And most of the companies that would normally be desperate for engineers have a hiring freeze.

    My dad has a masters in mechanical engineering and is also out of a job. He's gone from making 6 figures to living in a trailer, and his wife has to keep a crappy minimum wage gas station job. He's a bit of a different story, as he's a very unpleasant and stubborn sort of person and I can see why companies would be hesitant to hire him.

    Most of our friends in the engineering feild have gone off to Japan to get work. We may be next if things don't improve soon
    If you really want to try and understand the fundamental changes taking place in the US economy, a useful 'history lesson' can be gleaned from FDR policies of the 1930's. Essentially, the purely 'private sector' US businesses are being run out of business. Yet at the same time, certain specific types of businesses remain busy and their employees keep receiving good paychecks. These obviously consist of (unionized) gov't employees, (mostly unionized) employees of companies that are 'supported' by the gov't (either literally or figuratively), and businesses where the gov't mandates a profitable market. If you are able to find work in one of these segments, you're all set. However, if not, you're more or less screwed and are likely to find yourself in an ever growing group of the 'permanently' unemployed.

    Where engineers are concerned, the opportunities today that would seem to fall within the FDR 1930's analogy are consultant engineers for gov't infrastructure projects, development engineers for new ( and heavily gov't subsidized) 'green' technology applications, regulated public utility company engineers etc. Engineering opportunities that are NOT likely to be found in the USA are manufacturing engineers, software engineers, basic building design and construction engineers, basic product design engineers etc.


    No, these jobs are in the salary range that someone with no college, no experience might make. Say $8 hour. Most college graduates won't take an $8 hour job
    not wanting to mix threads, but arguably this mindset is unrealistic in terms of today's 'global' value of skilled labor. A mechanical engineer in Mexico might be paid $25k per year, with a mechanical engineer in India or China being paid even less. Thus in the absence of a shortage of mechanical engineers, any US private sector company who offers to pay a mechanical engineer more than $25k a year is putting themselves at a dangerous cost disadvantage. But the minimum wage mindset cannot be avoided ... nor can the 'moral hazard' it creates. If the gov't guarantees that anybody walking in off the street with zero education, zero skills, and zero experience must be paid $7.50 per hour = $15,600 per year, it's difficult to rationalize that an American with 4 years of college education, proven skills, and proven experience should only be paid an additional $4.50 per hour.

    In China, India, Mexico etc. the $12 an hour paycheck offered to an educated and skilled worker is FAR higher than the $2-$3 an hour paycheck offered to an unskilled laborer ... and the educated and skilled worker's resulting standard of living is far higher as well. However, in the USA, the differential in paycheck and resulting standard of living between a $7.50 an hour minimum wage worker and a $12 an hour educated and skilled worker isn't all that significant ... and particularly so when one considers the equivalent cash value of benefits that the minimum wage worker will also be eligible to receive from the gov't.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 07-25-2009 at 04:20 PM.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    I absolutely will take a job in another country if offered as I'm pretty close to being fluent in Spanish and have decided to take it as a minor towards my BA. If I can make "big bucks" in Costa Rica or some other country where jobs have been offshored and the cost of living is low, then I'm there... if I don't take it someone else will. It's to the point now where I have to rationalize spending on day to day things like full coverage car insurance (taking off some of the coverage which in Fla is a really bad idea) and only running my AC for 3 hours a day max Do you know how hot it is here in July?., to buying nasty frozen fish that is cryo-packed instead of fresh.
    But what really burns my biscuits is I DO have professional experience and am willing to work very hard. I will not however accept a job that pays me a wage that is unlivable. And you will not get to me to beleive that it's all these companies can afford to pay, bullshit! They know people are desperate for work right now so they can get away with it. The fact that I will "HAVE" to dance at least one night a week for the forseeable future is a little hard to stomach for me. I always loved dancing and it was always fun, now I have serious burnout and apprehension to even show up there!
    XoXo Gia
    Danielle Fishell (the Dish): "If the Super-Star thing doesn't work out, Gia makes a great stripper name"

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    ^^^ on becoming a Costa Rican ex-pat, I've met several. If you like living in South Florida you're likely to love living in the Costa Rican capital of San Jose.

    For my own part, Costa Rica is too far south, has too much in the way of leftover 'Hispanic' culture / lifestyle, is too friggin close to potentially 'unstable' neighboring countries, and the banking system and potential citizenship have major question marks. Again for my own part, I now enjoy being a bit farther north, in a country with leftover 'Anglo' culture / lifestyle, more stable neighboring countries, and a banking system and potential citizenship path which are quite secure.

    You are correct though that for the same US $1500 a month you are trying to get by on in South Florida, you can live an EXTREMELY comfortable lifestyle in any country in the region. Life can get even MORE comfortable if you happen to live and socialize in an area frequented by very rich European and north American tourists *wink* *wink* ! Also, if structured correctly, your first $91k per year of 'foreign' income is exempt from US income taxes.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Obviously this seriously kills all incentive to invest years of effort and tens of thousands of dollars in tuition for a net difference in income (after taxes) of less than $100 per week.
    Don't go to college one is protected by the minimum wage. This will open up more spots for foreigners to come into the US of A to do the skilled jobs. The minimum wage is B.S. as illegal works are not subject to that and if a company can save a nickel the job will be done over seas. No American can compete against $2 an hour slave labor in China.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    No American can compete against $2 an hour slave labor in China
    They can if the gov't mandates the existance of their job, and mandates market prices that guarantee that employers can afford to pay the $7.50 per hour. Perfect example is the ever-famous New Jersey gas pumping law, which A. requires that gas stations employ minimum wage workers to pump gas into customers' tanks ( the customers are not allowed to fill their own tanks !), and B. which taxes / price fixes the market price of New Jersey gas at a level where the gas stations can remain profitable ( which is ultimately paid for by New Jersey drivers being stuck paying higher prices for their gasoline fill-ups than they otherwise would have needed to).

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Essentially the world's capitalistic countries are not ready for globalization. A lot more thought should have gone into how to make the transition and when. Now how can we protect ourselves from seemingly inevitable stiff competition? Because we surely cannot live on $2/hour pay rates -- that went out with World War II.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Because we surely cannot live on $2/hour pay rates -- that went out with World War II.
    This point actually brings us full circle on the topic of a minimum wage. First let's try and absorb a few 'inconvenient' truths about unskilled workers and the global 'value' of their work product. In point of fact, the 'value' added by a minimum wage US worker is actually much less than the $7.50 an hour he must be paid. In theory the 'value' added by a minimum wage US worker can be no greater than that of his $2 an hour global counterparts.

    This difference in actual minimum wage pay rate versus actual 'value' added must be made up from some other source. In the USA that other source is usually more highly skilled workers, whose pay rate now closely matches the 'value' added the worker is capable of producing. In fact, it can be argued that between pay rates, tax rates, and jacked up prices, the higher added 'value' being produced by educated, highly skilled US workers is being diverted to subsidize unskilled minimum wage workers.

    While this same sort of subsidy arrangement takes place in Western Europe, it does NOT take place in Asia or 'third world' countries. As a result, uneducated and unskilled workers in Asia and 'third world' countries face a standard of living that actually matches the added 'value' their work is capable of producing. At the same time, the standard of living of educated and skilled workers in Asia and 'third world' countries is now arguably HIGHER than the standard of living of their US counterparts ... or at least those US counterparts that are working in the private sector ( as opposed to those lucky Americans who are 'insulated' from global financial reality via the gov't, a strong union, a gov't regulated marketplace etc. ). The reason for this is that the educated and skilled Asian and 'third world' workers face a much less expensive cost of living ( because 'social' costs and subsidy costs are not tacked on top of local prices ), and because these educated and skilled Asian and 'third world' workers are able to 'keep' the lion's share of their actual earnings ( as opposed to having 20-30-40-50% of their earnings taxed away by the gov't).

    In point of fact, the US economy has yet to see the full impact of imposing a $7.50 an hour minimum wage ... which is more than three times as 'expensive' as global 'competitors'. Educated and skilled US workers have also yet to see the full impact of the 'cost shifting' necessary to support a $7.50 an hour minimum wage ... which will begin to materialize in the form of higher prices as well as lower pay rates for those educated and skilled workers. However, once state + federal unemployment benefits start to run out for the 4+ million educated and skilled but unemployed Americans, and they find themselves FORCED to accept jobs that pay $10-$12 an hour working next to irresponsible uneducated deadbeats who are earning 2/3rds as much as they are, things are likely to get 'interesting'.

    If and when things get 'interesting' enough, it may indeed come to pass that the US gov't takes a fresh look at the 'moral hazards' it has created by mandating a minimum wage which is so far disconnected from global economic reality. This fresh look will also be motivated by the huge shortfall in federal and state tax revenues that can actually be 'extracted' from educated and skilled US workers. Eventually the financial realities will need to be discussed ... i.e. that the 'minimum acceptable US standard of living' made possible by a $7.50 per hour minimum wage mandate plus social welfare program benefits is financially unsustainable without also dragging down the standard of living of educated and skilled Americans to essentially the same level as their uneducated unskilled neighbors. Arguably, this issue has the potential of turning 'seriously ugly' a year or two down the road - and perhaps much sooner of California goes bankrupt and stops sending out gov't checks.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 07-25-2009 at 08:04 PM.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ( which is ultimately paid for by New Jersey drivers being stuck paying higher prices for their gasoline fill-ups than they otherwise would have needed to).
    Got ya; New Jersey has some of the lowest gas prices in the nation and we don't smell like the great unwashed. $2.29 today and I don't have to get out of my car.

    I don't understand your fascination with a country you have abandoned.
    I give you credit, "America love it or leave it"; like they did in the 60s.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    ^^^ true about New Jersey retail gasoline prices. New Jersey has chosen to augment state and local tax revenues by jacking up property taxes, sales taxes and state income taxes to very high levels rather than hitting gasoline. This places a greater burden on 'rich' Joiseyites than 'poor' Joiseyites versus an outrageous gasoline tax like New York. But this also strongly motivates those 'rich' Joiseyites to pack up and move to lower tax rate states in greater numbers, which will eventually have a profound impact on the state's economy !

    I don't understand your fascination with a country you have abandoned.
    I give you credit, "America love it or leave it"; like they did in the 60s.
    Actually I haven't 'abandoned America / New York. I'm still paying US/NY income taxes ( fortunately subject to a $91k per year 'foreign income exclusion'), and since I still own property in the Adirondacks I'm also paying NY property taxes. I have fervent hopes that the 'tax and spend' pendulum will swing in the opposite direction in the next few years, such that I can 'afford' to spend more than 35 days per year in America / New York again ! But at the moment, being an ex-pat literally means about a $35k annual savings in US/NY taxes on my investment income, as well as an additional $25k annual savings in cost of living. This literally makes the difference between my being able to live as a de-facto 'retiree' south of the border, versus having to work full time in New York !

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ true about New Jersey retail gasoline prices. New Jersey has chosen to augment state and local tax revenues by jacking up property taxes, sales taxes and state income taxes to very high levels rather than hitting gasoline.
    You do know the situation.

    A side note about New Jersey;
    In the middle of making a hard push for health care reform before the August recess, President Obama is taking a time out to drum up support for New Jersey Gov. Jon Corzine in his race for re-election, where the Democratic incumbent has been consistently trailing his Republican opponent.
    Corzine is still behind we in New Jersey can smell B.S. no matter what side of the aisle the wind is blowing from.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    This point actually brings us full circle on the topic of a minimum wage. First let's try and absorb a few 'inconvenient' truths about unskilled workers and the global 'value' of their work product. In point of fact, the 'value' added by a minimum wage US worker is actually much less than the $7.50 an hour he must be paid. In theory the 'value' added by a minimum wage US worker can be no greater than that of his $2 an hour global counterparts.

    This difference in actual minimum wage pay rate versus actual 'value' added must be made up from some other source. In the USA that other source is usually more highly skilled workers, whose pay rate now closely matches the 'value' added the worker is capable of producing. In fact, it can be argued that between pay rates, tax rates, and jacked up prices, the higher added 'value' being produced by educated, highly skilled US workers is being diverted to subsidize unskilled minimum wage workers.

    While this same sort of subsidy arrangement takes place in Western Europe, it does NOT take place in Asia or 'third world' countries. As a result, uneducated and unskilled workers in Asia and 'third world' countries face a standard of living that actually matches the added 'value' their work is capable of producing. At the same time, the standard of living of educated and skilled workers in Asia and 'third world' countries is now arguably HIGHER than the standard of living of their US counterparts ... or at least those US counterparts that are working in the private sector ( as opposed to those lucky Americans who are 'insulated' from global financial reality via the gov't, a strong union, a gov't regulated marketplace etc. ). The reason for this is that the educated and skilled Asian and 'third world' workers face a much less expensive cost of living ( because 'social' costs and subsidy costs are not tacked on top of local prices ), and because these educated and skilled Asian and 'third world' workers are able to 'keep' the lion's share of their actual earnings ( as opposed to having 20-30-40-50% of their earnings taxed away by the gov't).
    Again, you're making things up based on your ideology. The cost of living in Beijing or Shangai is not much lower than the cost of living in New York City, and much higher than most other cities in the US.

    http://www.mercer.com/costoflivingpr#top_50

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    In point of fact, the US economy has yet to see the full impact of imposing a $7.50 an hour minimum wage ... which is more than three times as 'expensive' as global 'competitors'. Educated and skilled US workers have also yet to see the full impact of the 'cost shifting' necessary to support a $7.50 an hour minimum wage ... which will begin to materialize in the form of higher prices as well as lower pay rates for those educated and skilled workers. However, once state + federal unemployment benefits start to run out for the 4+ million educated and skilled but unemployed Americans, and they find themselves FORCED to accept jobs that pay $10-$12 an hour working next to irresponsible uneducated deadbeats who are earning 2/3rds as much as they are, things are likely to get 'interesting'.
    That's a mean thing to say about workers doing their best to make a decent living at a low-wage job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    If and when things get 'interesting' enough, it may indeed come to pass that the US gov't takes a fresh look at the 'moral hazards' it has created by mandating a minimum wage which is so far disconnected from global economic reality. This fresh look will also be motivated by the huge shortfall in federal and state tax revenues that can actually be 'extracted' from educated and skilled US workers. Eventually the financial realities will need to be discussed ... i.e. that the 'minimum acceptable US standard of living' made possible by a $7.50 per hour minimum wage mandate plus social welfare program benefits is financially unsustainable without also dragging down the standard of living of educated and skilled Americans to essentially the same level as their uneducated unskilled neighbors. Arguably, this issue has the potential of turning 'seriously ugly' a year or two down the road - and perhaps much sooner of California goes bankrupt and stops sending out gov't checks.

    ~
    As always you're making up your own "facts" that have no basis. The vast majority of minimum wage workers in the US are restaurant workers and retail workers who do not face competition from overseas. Most factory workers make far more than minimum wage in this country. Even in non-union auto-factories, workers get paid $15-$20 an hour plus benefits, and in most years, auto-manufacturers are able to profitably sells these vehicles at the same time they're paying these wages.
    Last edited by eagle2; 07-26-2009 at 10:27 PM.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    The cost of living in Beijing or Shangai is not much lower than the cost of living in New York City, and much higher than most other cities in the US.
    try factoring in 'after tax' versus 'before tax' ... which makes NYC twice as expensive !

    That's a mean thing to say about workers doing their best to make a decent living at a low-wage job.
    'doing their best' does NOT equate to living a lifestyle which actually requires 3 times the true 'value' of the work being done to pay for !


    As to your last comment about remaining US minimum wage workers being in 'service' industries, it is arguable that this is a RESULT not a voluntary development. The fact is that rising US minimum wage has driven out a lot of former US jobs for unskilled workers, from farm work to textile manufacture to dozens of others. This contributes to the estimated 16% rate of true unemployment, but the unskilled and 'permanently' unemployed are not counted in the official statistic.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    All this discussion about international wage comparisons is based in a false sense of parity between currencies. Which just ain't there because many countries try to shore up their world-wide evaluations by various tricks. Partly, for the less advanced countries, it's a holdover from the age of mercantilism.

    Also wages in such developing countries as China is a result of strongly excess demand from those migrating into industrialized from the areas due to starvation conditions there versus "promised" wages in the city which are largely illusory -- that is, risking deplorable rural conditions versus "promised" but nonetheless explotative and deplorable (sweatshop) urban conditions. In a sense about what was happening to the US workers in the late 1800s.

    I guess some people over here still believe we need to regress into those conditions because many other countries are still there and/or because they just haven't figured out how to live in a post-industrial age. It is rebellion against progressivism.
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    try factoring in 'after tax' versus 'before tax' ... which makes NYC twice as expensive !
    Once again you're just making things up based on your ideology. Chinese tax rates are higher than in the US. The top tax rate in China is 45%. In China there is a 17% VAT, which is much higher than New York City/State sales tax.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    'doing their best' does NOT equate to living a lifestyle which actually requires 3 times the true 'value' of the work being done to pay for !
    The value of their work is what they get paid. If it wasn't, they wouldn't be hired in the first place. That's how the laws of supply and demand work.

    In third world countries, adult entertainers probably make about one percent of what you were getting paid. Therefore, according to your logic, you were getting paid about 100 times the true 'value' of your work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    As to your last comment about remaining US minimum wage workers being in 'service' industries, it is arguable that this is a RESULT not a voluntary development. The fact is that rising US minimum wage has driven out a lot of former US jobs for unskilled workers, from farm work to textile manufacture to dozens of others. This contributes to the estimated 16% rate of true unemployment, but the unskilled and 'permanently' unemployed are not counted in the official statistic.
    No it doesn't. The minimum wage was much higher in 1999, in constant dollars, than it was in 2008, and the unemployment rate was much lower. Therefore you're wrong that the minimum wage causes unemployment. We were actually at full employment in 1999 with a higher minimum wage.

    Having a higher minimum wage creates jobs. When consumers have more money, they spend more on goods and services, thus creating more jobs.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    First of all, I support the increases in the minimum wage. The arguments against it while plausible IN THEORY , never seem to be borne out by actual experience. In other words, afaik, unemployment never increases because the minimum wage went up. However, increases in the M.W. have NOT been shown to have the stimulative effect that you claim i.e. afaik it does NOT create jobs.

    As to China's tax rates, they are very low on CAPITAL. Corporate taxes are a relatively low 25 % and capital gains and investment taxes are very low.

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    Default Re: NY Post - Don't Get That College Degree ... it's not worth it !

    In third world countries, adult entertainers probably make about one percent of what you were getting paid. Therefore, according to your logic, you were getting paid about 100 times the true 'value' of your work.
    Now it is YOU who can be accused of making things up as you go along. But you do bring up a very important point. In America or anywhere else around the world, dancers support their standard of living based on money that customers voluntarily choose to spend. In contrast, US minimum wage workers have their standard of living partially supported by the taxation of others ( which funds social welfare benefits for which they are eligible), and partially supported by involuntarily forcing customers to spend more money than they would otherwise need to ( by elevated restaurant meal prices, by elevated Jersey gasoline prices etc.).

    Therefore you're wrong that the minimum wage causes unemployment. We were actually at full employment in 1999 with a higher minimum wage.
    ^^^ a statistic which is totally dependent on the fuzzy methodology of US unemployment statistics ... which don't record people who have been unable to find a job for so long that they have exhausted their unemployment benefits. This statistic does NOT mean that a 4% official unemployment rate equals 96% of people have jobs, as the logic of your comment would require !!!

    'Real World' US minimum wage unemployment has indeed increased as a result of minimum wage increases. This is the result of certain businesses / industries simply closing down and moving offshore ( textiles, canneries ), the result of automation ( bank tellers, WalMart checkout clerks, agricutural workers ), the result of consolidation ( 10 former local gas stations became 2 large convenience marts, shedding 6 minimum wage jobs in the process). Again, like Obama's 'saved' jobs, it is impossible to quantify current minimum wage employment levels versus the levels that might have existed had the minimum wage not been increased. But it is possible to find concrete examples, which for whatever reason are usually poorly publicized.

    (snip)"The company, COS Samoa Packing, "is disappointed" in the [minimum - sic] wage hikes. and "we expect to work with Congressman Eni H. Faleomavaega and the U.S. government to establish programs that offset this new minimum wage bill and that will make American Samoa competitive internationally," said Jim Davet, senior vice president of operations. Faleomavaega is American Samoa's nonvoting delegate to Congress.

    Depending upon the type of job, current [ 2007 - sic ] minimum wages in the territory range from $2.68 to $4.09 an hour. Workers at both COS Samoa, subsidiary of San Diego-based Chicken of the Sea International, and StarKist Samoa, owned by Del Monte Food Inc., currently earn a minimum of $3.26 an hour.

    "We want to do right for our employees and the people of American Samoa, but the minimum wage hikes will not allow us to remain competitive and will cause cuts in employment," Davet said. "Short term, the initial 50-cent increase will result in a work-force reduction of just over 200 employees."

    He said the company is already paying "five times the international wage to can tuna in American Samoa, and we will be paying six to 10 times the international wage as the new wage increase begins to take effect."(snip)

    from


    ^^^ you can also add 250 ex-minimum wage jobs at StarKist's cannery that will soon be closing ... which essentially ends operations of any cannery businesses in US territory.

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