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Thread: Apartment deposit, HELP!

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    Featured Member kandie_kitten's Avatar
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    Default Apartment deposit, HELP!

    So I had found a great roomie in a nice apartment, and was all excited. I applied for the apartment, the application "fee" was the first month's rent, which is $485. There was also a credit check fee ($35) and a "lease transaction fee" ($150).

    Well, just as I went over to the apartment to sign the lease, the roomie breaks it to me that she's into heavy drugs.

    This is a complete dealbreaker for me, so I told her I'd have to find a new place to live, instead of moving in with her August 1.

    I never signed a lease, I never spent a single day in the apartment, but the apartment complex is giving me trouble about giving me my first month's rent back.

    Any advice on how I can negotiate with them, or how to word things so I'll get my cash back?

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    Featured Member Winged Dinghy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    I don't know how you could word it, but it seems like if you never signed anything, they should be obligated to give you back your money.

    Worst case scenario, threaten them with a lawyer. Or if even this doesn't work, could you still get the apartment in your name and just find a different roommate?

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    Featured Member kandie_kitten's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    ^No, she's the current tenant, so she's already on the lease.

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    Veteran Member bluelight's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    First things first: Go look at the contract you signed and read it carefully. You can find out how bound you are to them. You might be able to back out with only having a non-refund on your application fees. The answer to your question is in those pages.

    Second: To make sure you're not being toyed with: Google "apartment association you city and state" In every city there are an organization or two who represent renter's rights.

    Many times apartments try to make their own rules and get really bitchy and difficult to deal. Some may give you false information. But there are laws they have to abide by. Call an association and find out if they are breaking any laws.

    That's the best advice it can give you>>> It's saved me from some bullshit in the past!!!

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    God/dess verfolgung's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    It may help to know what state you live in, so we can refer to the proper landlord/tenancy laws. However, I competely understand if you do not wish to disclose this on a public forum.

    One suggestion I might have is call up your state's commercial real estate licensing board. They will be familier with your local laws and be able to refer you to proper resources just as real estate attorneys if needed. You can also contact your state's attorney general and better business bureau. (If none of that works, post your story online to all the local media outlets and perhaps someone will investigate it for you.)

    I'm am a bit curious why they took so much money prior to signing the lease. I could see providing some small admin fee to complete their background check, but to charge a month's rent as part of the application "fee" sounds shady and punitive. If there is no signed lease, and you have not established occupancy than they have no right to collect your rent. In any event, even if you sign the lease your local state may have a grace period within which you can cancel the lease.

    Best of luck.
    If you can't win. Make the fellow in front of you break the record.


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    Featured Member kandie_kitten's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    Thanks everyone. I'm in PA, if that helps.

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    AudreyLeigh
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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    Thats a toughie. I know here in CA youd be SOL. Without a signed lease youre automatically in a month to month and need to give 30 days notice. If today is the 9th and you want out you would be responsible for 9 days of rent in August. Make sense?

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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    She was supposed to move in August first. If you handle it properly you should be able to get back the rent money but kiss of the app. fee and possibly the other $150. You did apply and they probably checked your credit or whatever.

    Be adult like and very polite about it (anytime a person whines or is confrontational they get no where). Explain to them that you can'tmove in because of "lifestyle differences" or (if you are young enough to get away with it ) say that your Mom and Dad don't want you to move out. They really can't keep all of that money,

    Have you gone to your bank? Maybe they can help you.... I dunno though
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    AudreyLeigh
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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by Gia2608 View Post
    She was supposed to move in August first. If you handle it properly you should be able to get back the rent money but kiss of the app. fee and possibly the other $150. You did apply and they probably checked your credit or whatever.

    Be adult like and very polite about it (anytime a person whines or is confrontational they get no where). Explain to them that you can'tmove in because of "lifestyle differences" or (if you are young enough to get away with it ) say that your Mom and Dad don't want you to move out. They really can't keep all of that money,

    Have you gone to your bank? Maybe they can help you.... I dunno though
    If the bold was meant for me...

    Like I said - depends on state laws. Even tho she didn't move in they couldn't rent the place because they held it for her. Therefor she still owes a 30 day notice even if she didn't move in yet. That's here tho.

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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    Oh, I didn't mean it for you I just don't know that they can charge her pro-rated rent. If they do, it's not the end of the world but there's no way they can charge her for the whole month.

    I just hope she doesn't need to go to small claims.
    XoXo Gia
    Danielle Fishell (the Dish): "If the Super-Star thing doesn't work out, Gia makes a great stripper name"

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    God/dess verfolgung's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    Here is a link to the PA Attorney General. Contact phone number is at the bottom...

    http://www.attorneygeneral.gov/consumers.aspx?id=405
    If you can't win. Make the fellow in front of you break the record.


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    God/dess verfolgung's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    You never signed a lease, so you have no written contract.

    You never moved in, so you have no oral contract.

    You did fill out an application, and in PA a landlord can charge an "Application Fee" which may be non-refundable, and at their discretion choose to apply it to the first month's rent. So far I have not seen anything which says the "Application Fee" cannot be more than X, even though I feel a non-refundable Application Fee of first month's rent seems punitive.

    Here is an important Q: Were you given a copy of your completed Application? If not, you may be able to claim that they were in "breach of contract" and that they did not lawfully provide proper notice of the terms in the Application including the extent of the non-refundable items.
    If you can't win. Make the fellow in front of you break the record.


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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by kandie_kitten View Post
    So I had found a great roomie in a nice apartment, and was all excited. I applied for the apartment, the application "fee" was the first month's rent, which is $485. There was also a credit check fee ($35) and a "lease transaction fee" ($150).

    Well, just as I went over to the apartment to sign the lease, the roomie breaks it to me that she's into heavy drugs.

    This is a complete dealbreaker for me, so I told her I'd have to find a new place to live, instead of moving in with her August 1.

    I never signed a lease, I never spent a single day in the apartment, but the apartment complex is giving me trouble about giving me my first month's rent back.

    Any advice on how I can negotiate with them, or how to word things so I'll get my cash back?
    If you have never signed any lease then you are under no obligation. May be Jack can chime in to help you a bit better.

    Banks can initiate a reversal of transaction at your request if they believe your story to be credible. Have you talked to your bank?

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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    I found some additional feedback pertaining to PA state law ...

    Some states have a "right of rescission", where you can have three business days to cancel the lease and get your money returned. Unfortunately, in Pennsylvania, this rule does not apply to applications for residential leases.

    Here is a legal opinion on this matter from a PA Attorney ...

    "This question is definitely a fact sensitive one, to which I will try to provide a brief but comprehensive response. There is no specific statute which gives the Tenant a certain period of time to change his or her mind to obtain a refund of the deposit. The issue is one of contract, which requires some "consideration" (e.g., something of value) to pass between the parties. A court might be persuaded to follow the plain language of the application and to find the deposit to be nonrefundable. However, the better view would be to determine whether the Landlord "gave" anything to the prospective Tenant in exchange for the "deposit". In my opinion, it would be unlikely that the Landlord "gave" anything to the Tenant unless it actually gave the Tenant a lease or specifically took the apartment off the market. Even in those cases, the Landlord should not be able to keep the deposit if it has not actually suffered a loss. My general answer is that in most cases, in the absence of a signed lease, the Landlord should not be permitted to retain a deposit if the Tenant cancels."
    - Jon Sirlin, attorney with the law firm Sirlin, Gallogly & Lesser, P.C. in Philadelphia

    As I mentioned above, your case would be made even stronger if you were not provided a copy of your App.

    Good luck!
    If you can't win. Make the fellow in front of you break the record.


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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    Quote Originally Posted by kandie_kitten View Post
    So I had found a great roomie in a nice apartment, and was all excited. I applied for the apartment, the application "fee" was the first month's rent, which is $485. There was also a credit check fee ($35) and a "lease transaction fee" ($150).

    Well, just as I went over to the apartment to sign the lease, the roomie breaks it to me that she's into heavy drugs.

    This is a complete dealbreaker for me, so I told her I'd have to find a new place to live, instead of moving in with her August 1.

    I never signed a lease, I never spent a single day in the apartment, but the apartment complex is giving me trouble about giving me my first month's rent back.

    Any advice on how I can negotiate with them, or how to word things so I'll get my cash back?

    I leased apartments for about 2 years. I don't know what city you're in, or what type of complex it is, but with my former company, once an applicant had applied, if they canceled within a certain time period or before being approved, then they would receive their deposit back but not their application fee/background check. But once someone had been approved as an appropriate possible resident and informed of their approval, then their deposit was non-refundable until they completed their full lease term.

    Go back and read all of the print on the application you filled out. There's more than likely something on there about the deposit (which in some cases is the first months rent, or 2x normal deposit). If they had been professional they would have explained to you that is non refundable. But it is your responsibility to read and make sure that you're clear and ok with the terms before signing anything at all. The applications is a legal document, and if it has your signature then you are bound to the terms stated.

    I feel for you I really do. All I can suggest is that you request to read the application form and anything else that your signature is on. Read it carefully and see if it does mention anything of the sort. If it does not mention anything related then you can either contact their corporate office or the US dept of HUD and you may be able to argue that they've violated the Fair Housing Act somehow by not complying with the terms of the signed application.

    If the application is in compliance with the National Apartment Association (you will see a bold NAA somewhere on the form) then there will be something that says that the deposit is only refundable after a certain amount of time.

    But the problem is that even if there is nothing regarding a deposit on the application then that means that there is also nothing obligating them to refund your money. I could see a refund being valid if you paid rent early and just never moved in or moved out super early, and then a prorated amount being refunded- but the fact that they labeled it as a "fee"/"deposit" makes me wary that they might be able to weed around it completely.

    It sounds like you might be out of luck in either case. But I'm keeping my fingers crossed!!

    Go get a copy of everything you signed if you didn't already, and maybe contact HUD or find a lawyer who will give you a free consultation.

    Good luck!!

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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    If you can't afford a lawyer, you can go to small claims court.

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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    Also try PMing Jack. He may be able to help. He comes across as a nice guy.

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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    Don't take this as legal advice. However:

    It would depend on how they worded things, but it looks like they're trying to be clever by masking the first month's rent as a part of the application fee. You'd have no right of recovery were this actually a fee.

    It's cute, but possibly too cute by half. You can say: "Look, cut the pie however you like, a small claims court will not see it as a mere happenstance that the first month's rent is equivalent to the fee charged. They will give force to the spirit of our intent, and I as I didn't enter into a contract with you, I will recover my first month's rent and treble damages. I'm a sympathetic claimant and you're an unsympathetic defendant. This isn't worth your time to defend, but it's certainly worth my time to pursue."

    Be cordial and explain that you're aware of your rights, and that you know full well that a mere linguistic re-characterization of an otherwise standard agreement will not suffice to convince any judge with even the scantest familiarity with the law. And it might not convince those sitting in small claims court, either.

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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    "This question is definitely a fact sensitive one, to which I will try to provide a brief but comprehensive response. There is no specific statute which gives the Tenant a certain period of time to change his or her mind to obtain a refund of the deposit. The issue is one of contract, which requires some "consideration" (e.g., something of value) to pass between the parties. A court might be persuaded to follow the plain language of the application and to find the deposit to be nonrefundable. However, the better view would be to determine whether the Landlord "gave" anything to the prospective Tenant in exchange for the "deposit". In my opinion, it would be unlikely that the Landlord "gave" anything to the Tenant unless it actually gave the Tenant a lease or specifically took the apartment off the market. Even in those cases, the Landlord should not be able to keep the deposit if it has not actually suffered a loss. My general answer is that in most cases, in the absence of a signed lease, the Landlord should not be permitted to retain a deposit if the Tenant cancels."
    - Jon Sirlin, attorney with the law firm Sirlin, Gallogly & Lesser, P.C. in Philadelphia

    This is basically correct; it's resolvable on common law principles of contract. I would emphasize that the important point is not that no consideration was given - though none was - but rather that privity did not exist in the first place. There was no agreement, and certainly no writing that memorialized it. So the legal question of consideration isn't even reached, but it makes your case even stronger that no consideration was given.

    In plain English, this means no agreement = no payment = give me my money back.

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    Featured Member kandie_kitten's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    HI everyone, thanks so much for all of the advice, I really appreciate it.

    I was really in over my head, but a lawyer at my work was a real estate attorney earlier in his career, and when he overheard me ranting to my friend about this, he offered to look over the application for me (I don't have the lease, since I never got to that point to even review it).

    In the tiny fine print, it says that if I withdraw my application after being accepted, it will not be refunded.

    My friend said if they had stopped there, I would have been screwed, and they would have been in the clear to keep my money.

    However, he said they stupidly went on to elaborate on their application about their reasoning.

    The application has this under the "no refund" section:

    "The Applicant understands that when the Agent receives this signed application, the Agent will stop trying to lease this apartment. (If the Applicant decides not to lease the apartment, the Agent will have no way to know whether or not the Agent could have rented this apartment to someone else while the apartment was being reserved for the Applicant.)"

    My lawyer said because the landlord was not actively trying to lease this apartment, because it already had a tenant who just needed a roommate, they owe me my money back. Further more, because they give the reasoning "we could have rented it to someone else" , it's reasonable to assume then that if another tenant IS found, I get my money back.

    I typed that up in legal-speak, and suddenly I get a quick response (instead of being ignored), saying that they will give me my deposit back once there is a new roommate.

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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    Well done!

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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    Good job!

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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    Very glad to hear the good news.

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    Featured Member kandie_kitten's Avatar
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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    I Spoke too soon.

    I helped the druggie roomie find 10 prospective tenants, and she didnt like them. She has now decided to just give up and move in with her parents, so now I'm screwed.

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    Default Re: Apartment deposit, HELP!

    Ok, I've been through alot of apartment messes in my time, so here is my thoughts.
    Since you DIDN'T sign a lease, you ARE NOT obligated for that lease. Now if you would've signed it, thats totally different. Ok, now as far as the money you already invested....READ the paperwork discussing the application fee, etc....see if it says anything about fees being NON-REFUNDABLE.....If not, then you can approach them with that. If so, then either call & try to explain the situation once more & see if they will reimburse you the first month back, maybe negotiate that they can keep the credit check fee & partial lease fee just for their troubles. Now some apartment managers are willing to work with ppl, especially if this whole thing just happened & you approach them right away. If they are gonna be asses, contact an attorney to send them ONE letter (that usually works), & one letter shouldnt cost much to draft up with him/her.

    Also, is there anyone else who you could ask to be your roommate? OR
    Is there anyway you could swing the apartment for now, then find a roommate soon.
    These options are only if you LOVED the apartment & really didn't wanna give it up.

    Ok good luck to you!
    XoXo


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