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Thread: The ultimate question is a simple one.

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    Default The ultimate question is a simple one.

    In all these threads dealing with this program and that; as Obama stumbles around trying to spend us out of a recession ; the ultimate question is a simple one : Who is smarter when it comes to spending YOUR money; the government or YOU ? Do you need the government to tell you what kind of car to drive ? What kind of health care to buy ?

    If conservative principles had been followed by Bush, we'd be well on our way out of this mess.

    In 1919 there was a post-W.W. I recession. We recovered through Treasury Secretary Mellon's tax cuts.
    Hoover turned a recession into a depression by raising taxes. FDR prolonged it by raising taxes.
    JFK generated economic growth by cutting taxes. So did Reagan. So did Bush.

    Who seriously thinks that allowing Bush's tax cuts to expire will cause the economy to improve ? Or that raising taxes further will generate growth REGARDLESS of what laudable programs those taxes go to fund ?

    Why are so many of you so willing to surrender so much personal freedom to a bunch of ninnies who prove over and over again that all they really care about is getting themselves reelected ?

    If you boil all our discussion down to its simplest terms, that is the issue. It never ceases to amaze me that the same people who demand freedom over their bodies ( who to sleep with, whether or not to smoke pot, freedom to choose on abortion, whom to marry) do NOT demand the same freedom with regard to their wallets and purses. The very people who decry government surveillance that probably will NEVER impact them in the slightest are blithely willing to let government control their health care. Folks who would rebel at being told how high their skirt could be or what shoes to wear are apparently willing to let the government decide what kind of car they can drive.

    Why are you competent to make one kind of choice but not another ?

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    The problem is multi-fold in my eyes.

    The tax cuts that need to be made would need to be so deep, spending must be cut. This is disagreeable with many democrat's economic theory of how the world works.

    In addition, there were a hell of a lot LESS laws and regulations in 1919 compared to today's government over sight. When the government is shutting down little girl's lemonade stands () you can only imagine the barriers of entry and barriers of operation regulation is imposing on "real" job creating businesses.

    And I don't just mean Melonie's favorite pollution control laws. I mean incessant amounts of reporting and paper work processing to satisfy multiple levels of government - some of which - like the IRS - don't even know their own rules.

    I mean, just take a look at what government requires to own and operate a strip club as well the BS dancers need to do simply to smile and gyrate. Once they get their licenses, sherriff's cards, background checks, and lawyer retained - the regulation of what you can show, who you can touch, where you can touch, how far you must be, etc. all start wearing on a pretty simple process to making money (compared to making a car ya know.)

    This kind of obnoxious regulation is EVERYWHERE in EVERY BUSINESS.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deogol View Post
    The problem is multi-fold in my eyes.

    The tax cuts that need to be made would need to be so deep, spending must be cut. This is disagreeable with many democrat's economic theory of how the world works.

    In addition, there were a hell of a lot LESS laws and regulations in 1919 compared to today's government over sight. When the government is shutting down little girl's lemonade stands (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/251/story/73160.html) you can only imagine the barriers of entry and barriers of operation regulation is imposing on "real" job creating businesses.

    And I don't just mean Melonie's favorite pollution control laws. I mean incessant amounts of reporting and paper work processing to satisfy multiple levels of government - some of which - like the IRS - don't even know their own rules.

    I mean, just take a look at what government requires to own and operate a strip club as well the BS dancers need to do simply to smile and gyrate. Once they get their licenses, sherriff's cards, background checks, and lawyer retained - the regulation of what you can show, who you can touch, where you can touch, how far you must be, etc. all start wearing on a pretty simple process to making money (compared to making a car ya know.)

    This kind of obnoxious regulation is EVERYWHERE in EVERY BUSINESS.
    And a LOT of it comes right back to MY question i.e. ceding control from the individual to the government. It's ALWAYS cloaked in a hgiher purpose: protecting the public health and safety, providing essential services, helping the poor and ALWAYS involves LESS benefit and MORE burden than initially advertised.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    You can also add the abandonment by the mainstream press of their essential functions.

    Is anyone else as shocked as I am by the press seriously discussing whether Americans ought to protest against Obama's Health Care Plan ?

    Andrea Mitchell of NBC saying that protesters at various town meetings "don't know what's good for them."

    Stories in the N.Y. Times, Washington Post and on CNN and MSNBC questioning whether people ought to be protesting.

    Scant coverage to Obama collecting NAMES of those leading the opposition to his health care plan.

    Where was this debate when it was Reagan or Bush policy being protested ?

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    ^^^ it's not that simple. One needs to agree on a definition of 'better' ... in light of a modern day 'Bread and Circuses' based American democracy where 40%+ of registered voters pay no income taxes but collect gov't benefits funded by the income taxes collected from others, and where another 15% or so of registered voters directly derive their employment from the government.

    (snip)"Those scornful words "bread and circuses," panem et circenses in Latin, become more meaningful when you understand that Roman citizens became increasingly addicted to free distributions of food and the violent gladiatorial and other contests held in the Coliseum and the chariot races of the Circus Maximus. He felt that Romans had lost the capacity to govern themselves so distracted by mindless self-gratification had they become.

    Thus, bread and circuses, is a phrase now used to deplore a population so distracted with entertainment and personal pleasures (sometimes by design of those in power) that they no longer value the civic virtues and bow to civil authority with unquestioned obedience. Bread and Circuses has also become a general term for government policies that seek short-term solutions to public unrest.

    Unfortunately, Juvenal's words apply quite strikingly to the United States, certainly a people who at the turn of the 3rd millennium are almost wholly distracted by cheap fast food (relative to other countries) and by the decadence of an entertainment industry that that deals so much in sex, violence and propaganda.

    I wonder how our own mass distractions compare with those of Juvenal's era:
    bullet In ancient Rome, muscular men called gladiators (actually slaves from all parts of the empire) fought each other in front of thousands with swords and axes to the death. If they fought savagely and well, the emperor du jour might save the loser with a "thumbs up." Hmm, muscular young men and women (many of whom are the descendants of slaves) contest for our allegiance in a complicated "box" while fighting desperately to overcome opponents and sell beer.


    bullet While the Romans threw Christians to the lions, we watch reality TV and watch young men and women devouring such appetizing concoctions as Pureed Centipede a la Mode or Black Pepper Grilled Scorpion with Grubs and Live Ants on the side.


    bullet Related to the prior bullet: Please note that for Romans who had eaten too much but who still wished to indulge themselves, there were "Vomitariums" available, rooms, where those feasting on delicacies superior than the ones mentioned above I am sure, lightly waved a feather against the back of their throats. . . Well, you get the picture.


    bullet Also playing on reality TV, more young men and women attempting to survive canoe trips on the Amazon without Off or other insect repellents while fending off hungry piranha and avoiding deadly snakes. Great fun! I sure do enjoy watching all that suffering.


    bullet We watch "electrons deify" dubious politicians into hero status while the economy worsens and matters of real nation security (such as our poorly guarded borders and mediocre safeguards for nuclear power stations) are ignored. I seem to recall that while Nero fiddled (actually more of a symbolic legend), no one paid much attention until the capital of the Empire started burning.


    bullet Viewed with a little distance, almost all television commercials are really satires of a low (certainly not high) order. I mean, really, who can watch those clips advertising prescription drugs without snickering. All those "feel good" scenes of couples playing on the beach or rolling around in grass without peeing or collapsing due to allergies are pure comic opera.


    bullet Now don't get me started on the television news! Ok, if you insist I will say just a few words. . .actually maybe only one: Condit. . .Now I know the man is not particularly likable maybe even somewhat reprehesible, but the media news--all of them but especially the "fair and balanced" one-- crucified the poor man in the court of public opinion. I seem to remember reading that in the United States we are innocent until proven guilty. For those of you not familiar with the "Roman Spectacle" that sometimes passes for TV news in this country, Gary Condit was a Democratic congressman from California who was investigated for the death of a politcal aide.

    Disgracefully, the corporate news media gave the U.S. populace saturation coverage of this "non-event." Do you think it was a conspiracy to distract the people from various corporate accounting scandals and downright felonious actions of Enron et al? Who knows? Nevertheless, we were distracted!

    Eventually the media feeding frenzy calmed down. Gary Condit was never charged with a in the death of Chandra Levy. Talk about the distraction of "bread and circuses!"


    bullet Which brings us to Jerry Springer. I am not sure there is a Roman correspondence here; the times being what they were, full of danger and intrigue, they probably did their best not to air dirty laundry in public (not always successfully, I fear). I just cannot see the Empress, Agrippina, getting up in the Forum and telling all about her adulterous escapades while her husband, the Emperor Claudius, waits offstage to be ushered into her presence where she confronts him and the assembled Patricians with her latest lover from the Praetorian Guard. (Though she did come close!)

    Well, enough of this foolishness already! I do fear that Juvenal would probably be out of a job in the 21st century, since in our modern times we do not really need a literary genius of his calibre, only a humble scribe to write down the events of the day--epic or inconsequential--gleaned from the mass media, especially those on the small screen. "(snip)

    from

    "What kind of government do we have, Mr. Franklin?"


    "A republic," the elderly statesman, writer and scientist replied, ". . .if you can keep it. . ."



    America has obviously ceased to be a republic, and is now a 'bread and circuses' democracy.
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-06-2009 at 01:22 PM.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Thus, bread and circuses, is a phrase now used to deplore a population so distracted with entertainment and personal pleasures (sometimes by design of those in power) that they no longer value the civic virtues and bow to civil authority with unquestioned obedience. Bread and Circuses has also become a general term for government policies that seek short-term solutions to public unrest.
    This is at the core of the loss of our country's direction.

    I have a LOT of disgust over what passes both for "entertainment" and for valid "occupations."
    I loved going to strip clubs; I actually made some friends there. Now things are different for the clubs and for me. As a result I am not as happy.

    Customers are not entitled to grope, disrespect, or rob strippers. This is their job, not their hobby, and they all need income. Clubs are not just some erotic show for guys to view while drinking.

    NOTE: anything I post here, outside of a direct quote, is my opinion only, which I am entitled to. Take it for what you estimate it is worth.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ it's not that simple. One needs to agree on a definition of 'better' ... in light of a modern day 'Bread and Circuses' based American democracy where 40%+ of registered voters pay no income taxes but collect gov't benefits funded by the income taxes collected from others, and where another 15% or so of registered voters directly derive their employment from the government.

    (snip)"Those scornful words "bread and circuses," panem et circenses in Latin, become more meaningful when you understand that Roman citizens became increasingly addicted to free distributions of food and the violent gladiatorial and other contests held in the Coliseum and the chariot races of the Circus Maximus. He felt that Romans had lost the capacity to govern themselves so distracted by mindless self-gratification had they become.

    Thus, bread and circuses, is a phrase now used to deplore a population so distracted with entertainment and personal pleasures (sometimes by design of those in power) that they no longer value the civic virtues and bow to civil authority with unquestioned obedience. Bread and Circuses has also become a general term for government policies that seek short-term solutions to public unrest.

    Unfortunately, Juvenal's words apply quite strikingly to the United States, certainly a people who at the turn of the 3rd millennium are almost wholly distracted by cheap fast food (relative to other countries) and by the decadence of an entertainment industry that that deals so much in sex, violence and propaganda.

    I wonder how our own mass distractions compare with those of Juvenal's era:
    bullet In ancient Rome, muscular men called gladiators (actually slaves from all parts of the empire) fought each other in front of thousands with swords and axes to the death. If they fought savagely and well, the emperor du jour might save the loser with a "thumbs up." Hmm, muscular young men and women (many of whom are the descendants of slaves) contest for our allegiance in a complicated "box" while fighting desperately to overcome opponents and sell beer.


    bullet While the Romans threw Christians to the lions, we watch reality TV and watch young men and women devouring such appetizing concoctions as Pureed Centipede a la Mode or Black Pepper Grilled Scorpion with Grubs and Live Ants on the side.


    bullet Related to the prior bullet: Please note that for Romans who had eaten too much but who still wished to indulge themselves, there were "Vomitariums" available, rooms, where those feasting on delicacies superior than the ones mentioned above I am sure, lightly waved a feather against the back of their throats. . . Well, you get the picture.


    bullet Also playing on reality TV, more young men and women attempting to survive canoe trips on the Amazon without Off or other insect repellents while fending off hungry piranha and avoiding deadly snakes. Great fun! I sure do enjoy watching all that suffering.


    bullet We watch "electrons deify" dubious politicians into hero status while the economy worsens and matters of real nation security (such as our poorly guarded borders and mediocre safeguards for nuclear power stations) are ignored. I seem to recall that while Nero fiddled (actually more of a symbolic legend), no one paid much attention until the capital of the Empire started burning.


    bullet Viewed with a little distance, almost all television commercials are really satires of a low (certainly not high) order. I mean, really, who can watch those clips advertising prescription drugs without snickering. All those "feel good" scenes of couples playing on the beach or rolling around in grass without peeing or collapsing due to allergies are pure comic opera.


    bullet Now don't get me started on the television news! Ok, if you insist I will say just a few words. . .actually maybe only one: Condit. . .Now I know the man is not particularly likable maybe even somewhat reprehesible, but the media news--all of them but especially the "fair and balanced" one-- crucified the poor man in the court of public opinion. I seem to remember reading that in the United States we are innocent until proven guilty. For those of you not familiar with the "Roman Spectacle" that sometimes passes for TV news in this country, Gary Condit was a Democratic congressman from California who was investigated for the death of a politcal aide.

    Disgracefully, the corporate news media gave the U.S. populace saturation coverage of this "non-event." Do you think it was a conspiracy to distract the people from various corporate accounting scandals and downright felonious actions of Enron et al? Who knows? Nevertheless, we were distracted!

    Eventually the media feeding frenzy calmed down. Gary Condit was never charged with a in the death of Chandra Levy. Talk about the distraction of "bread and circuses!"


    bullet Which brings us to Jerry Springer. I am not sure there is a Roman correspondence here; the times being what they were, full of danger and intrigue, they probably did their best not to air dirty laundry in public (not always successfully, I fear). I just cannot see the Empress, Agrippina, getting up in the Forum and telling all about her adulterous escapades while her husband, the Emperor Claudius, waits offstage to be ushered into her presence where she confronts him and the assembled Patricians with her latest lover from the Praetorian Guard. (Though she did come close!)

    Well, enough of this foolishness already! I do fear that Juvenal would probably be out of a job in the 21st century, since in our modern times we do not really need a literary genius of his calibre, only a humble scribe to write down the events of the day--epic or inconsequential--gleaned from the mass media, especially those on the small screen. "(snip)

    from http://www.thomasjamesmartin.com/breadcircus.htm

    "What kind of government do we have, Mr. Franklin?"


    "A republic," the elderly statesman, writer and scientist replied, ". . .if you can keep it. . ."



    America has obviously ceased to be a republic, and is now a 'bread and circuses' democracy.
    Maybe if we had more vomitoriums, we'd have less obesity with corollary benefit to the public health.

    While I think there is a LOT of merit to your "bread and circuses" analogy, the REAL reason we have so many "reality" shows are because they are so much cheaper to produce than sit-coms and dramas. A dancer friend of mine starred on one and told me it is all scripted.

    The real shame of T.V. afaic is the death of the documentary on the three major networks. Fox, CNBC, MSNBC and to a lesser extent CNN do a few. PBS still has FRONTLINE but ALL of those are politically slanted.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Melonie

    Just in case you don't remember because I know you were getting a little work much apreciated by some of us done in Houston at the time, with respect to Gary Condit it took 9-11 happening to quit hearing about him day and night. Just like all we heard about all summer long in 05 was how poor little Natalie Holloway the good little girl virgin from Alabama who went to church every day and twice on Sunday who got a terminal case of girls gone wild in Aruba "was missing" it took Katrina to quit hearing about her.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    ^^^ don't forget Anna Nicole Smith and most recently Michael Jackson's death filling the latest role of 'circus of the month'.

    With one in nine Americans now receiving Food Stamps, and with the incessant parade of sensationalist 'news' coverage, the days of 'Bread and Circuses' has arguably arrrived big time !

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    ^^^ don't forget Anna Nicole Smith and most recently Michael Jackson's death filling the latest role of 'circus of the month'.

    With one in nine Americans now receiving Food Stamps, and with the incessant parade of sensationalist 'news' coverage, the days of 'Bread and Circuses' has arguably arrrived big time !
    I don't think there is anything arguable about it. We are following the well trod path first set down by the Roman Empire. Instead of slaves, we use illegal workers. EXCUSE ME ! I mean undocumented immigrants. Instead of universal military service or a draft, we have a mercenary military. Albeit a very competent and fairly patriotic one .

    40% of income earners do NOT pay Federal Income Taxes. 11 % collect Food Stamps. Something like 80 % of the Federal budget is transfer payments: Social Security, SSI, Medicare, Medicaid, Federal and Veteran's pensions.

    We are losing sight of the things that ought to unite us. A common ethos, if you will in favor of "diversity" and hyphenated Americans. Why is it you never hear about Black Canadians or African Canadians or Asian Canadians ?

    And as Melonie has pointed out, the media feeds the public a steady diet of soft core titillation and distraction instead of examining the hard facts.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 08-10-2009 at 12:07 PM.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    the media feeds the public a steady diet of soft core titillation and distraction instead of examining the hard facts
    And arguably when the mainstream media does decide to do some 'hard facts' reporting, more often than not their facts are cherry-picked or even non-factual ! I offer the national health bill as the most recent and aggregious example.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    In all these threads dealing with this program and that; as Obama stumbles around trying to spend us out of a recession ; the ultimate question is a simple one : Who is smarter when it comes to spending YOUR money; the government or YOU ?
    Lol! I've known people that have no idea about how to handle money, and can't even count back change without a calculator. And these are college grads.

    Financial literacy in our nation is horrendous. So answer your own question, who knows more about handling money, the general public or the treasury and federal reserve?


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    And a LOT of it comes right back to MY question i.e. ceding control from the individual to the government. It's ALWAYS cloaked in a hgiher purpose: protecting the public health and safety, providing essential services, helping the poor and ALWAYS involves LESS benefit and MORE burden than initially advertised.
    There are just some things that require government oversight to prevent disaster. Would you allow anyone to practice medicine, or would you rather an oversight committee make sure that an individual is actually qualified to practice medicine before allowing him/her to do so?

    Think about all the things in this world that if anyone was permitted to do without first proving his/her worthiness first, could end in absolute disaster. Think about the little things that touch our lives everyday: people operating motor vehicles are first required to submit to a test of skill before the government allows them to drive, your doctor, banker, food handler, police officer, school teachers, barber, baker and candle stick maker are all required to submit to government licensing standards before being allowed the privileged of performing those tasks.

    Why are so many of you so willing to surrender so much personal freedom to a bunch of ninnies who prove over and over again that all they really care about is getting themselves reelected ?
    So how much freedom do you really want? Shall we do away with all those pesky DMV's that make sure people operating motor vehicles are proficient to do so? Because, you know, who is actually driving that car, you or the government?


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    Lol! I've known people that have no idea about how to handle money, and can't even count back change without a calculator. And these are college grads.

    Financial literacy in our nation is horrendous. So answer your own question, who knows more about handling money, the general public or the treasury and federal reserve?
    Are you seriously saying that the Treasury and Federal Reserve are more responsible than the average American ? The average American hasn't permitted the collapse of the dollar. The average American never caused the Great Depression or permitted runaway inflation . ALL of those things were caused by GOVERNMENT .

    The average Susie Homemaker is much more responsible with her family budget than the Congress or your average state legislature.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    There are just some things that require government oversight to prevent disaster. Would you allow anyone to practice medicine, or would you rather an oversight committee make sure that an individual is actually qualified to practice medicine before allowing him/her to do so?

    Think about all the things in this world that if anyone was permitted to do without first proving his/her worthiness first, could end in absolute disaster. Think about the little things that touch our lives everyday: people operating motor vehicles are first required to submit to a test of skill before the government allows them to drive, your doctor, banker, food handler, police officer, school teachers, barber, baker and candle stick maker are all required to submit to government licensing standards before being allowed the privileged of performing those tasks.



    So how much freedom do you really want? Shall we do away with all those pesky DMV's that make sure people operating motor vehicles are proficient to do so? Because, you know, who is actually driving that car, you or the government?
    It 's a tough call to let just anyone "practice medicine" when a number of non-physicians have so much to offer. I support full disclosure and certification; not necessarily licensure. Afaic the REAL problem is letting the medical establishment continue to limit admissions to medical schools. Btw, their licenses are no guarantee that they've washed their hands.

    Bankers ? I'm generally in favor of reasonable regulation of banks. What I'm even more in favor of, which we are getting less and less lately under Obama, is full disclosure. E.g. the Fed and Treasury trying to keep secret who is getting how much bailout money.

    Food handlers ? Twer it only true. Most food inspection is a joke.

    Police officers ? Depends where they work. The Police in most major cities and some state depts are not bad. Some, like New Orleans and Houston are notoriously corrupt and or brutal. Since I oppose anarchy, I am in favor of police.

    School teachers ? ROTFLMAO ! A shining example of the worthlessness of many a "license". Did you know that in most major city school systems, a Ph.D. in history, English, Biology, Chemistry etc would NOT be qualified to teach those subjects. They could teach in any college in the U.S. but not in most public high schools unless they had a Masters in Education. And that M. of Ed would excuse glaring deficiencies in the aforementioned fields and many others.

    Barbers ? Since they can still do shaves and handle other sharp objects: license em.

    Bakers ?- The heat of the oven will kill anything but there's still the frosting and filling. But see "food handlers" supra.

    Candle stick makers ?- who cares ?

    What you've pointed to is generally understood to fall within the "police power" of the state. So long as the government is doing what citizens generally cannot do for themselves, then it's close enough to an essential function to have government do it.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    And arguably when the mainstream media does decide to do some 'hard facts' reporting, more often than not their facts are cherry-picked or even non-factual ! I offer the national health bill as the most recent and aggregious example.
    Lately they've done little more than parrot Obama and DNC canards about the bona fides of the "protesters".

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Are you seriously saying that the Treasury and Federal Reserve are more responsible than the average American ? The average American hasn't permitted the collapse of the dollar. The average American never caused the Great Depression or permitted runaway inflation . ALL of those things were caused by GOVERNMENT .

    The average Susie Homemaker is much more responsible with her family budget than the Congress or your average state legislature.
    You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    The excessive borrowing and spending by Obama and the Dem Congress is exactly how Barack and Michelle lived for several years.

    Based on their financial disclosures, the Obamas lived off lines of credit until 2005 when 1. Obama's book royalties came through 2. Michelle got a 260% pay raise at the University of chicago and 3. Obama started serving in the U.S. Senate.

    In April, 1999 they bought a condo with a mortgage for $159,000. In May, 1999 they took out a $20,000 line of credit. In 2002, they refinanced with a $210,000 mortgage and in 2004 they took out a $100,000 line of credit. By 2004 they owed
    $240,000 on a condo they bought for $160,000. From 2000 to 2004 they had an adjusted gross income averaging a little over $250,000. They had little or no savings because they reported virtually no taxable interest.

    Without his book royalties pouring in starting in 2005 ( Michelle said it was like "Jack and his magic beans" ) the Obamas would have suffered the consequences of too much debt.

    Obama's first 100 days have been distressingly similar. He gave Congress free rein in writing the stimulus bill. He made no effort to control spending or reduce debt. As in his private life when he borrowed more and more to finance a lifestyle beyond his means until the "magic beans" arrived, Obama is doing the same thing with the Federal budget. The question is : Who is the Federal "Jack" and what are the "magic beans" supposed to be ?

    Um, Melonie ? Do you need a houseboy ? Maybe have a couch I could sleep on ?


    Promote yourself and earn more money! This is a business that is owned by strippers for strippers. Let's make that money!


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    Banned Eric Stoner's Avatar
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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paris View Post
    You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.
    Oh No you don't ! That was to illustrate what I contend is the financial irresponsibility of the Obamas first demonstrated in their personal life and then carried through with regard to the Federal budget. Michelle herself referred to Obama's book royalties as "magic beans" that rescued their rather precarious financial situation.

    In any event the Obamas were an atypical American family. More importantly, it was the GOVERNMENT that caused the ills with which we are trying to cope with now.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Think about all the things in this world that if anyone was permitted to do without first proving his/her worthiness first, could end in absolute disaster. Think about the little things that touch our lives everyday:
    Like 'registered voters' !

    Um, Melonie ? Do you need a houseboy ? Maybe have a couch I could sleep on ?
    You can sleep on my couch while I'm out cruising the Caribbean at the invitation of the 'rich and lonely gentleman of the week !'

    The average Susie Homemaker is much more responsible with her family budget than the Congress or your average state legislature
    ... which brings us full circle to the topic of this thread. Susie Homemaker is more responsible because she will be HELD responsible ! Members of congress and state legislators are never held responsible, because most American voters never connect the dots.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Melonie View Post
    Like 'registered voters' !



    You can sleep on my couch while I'm out cruising the Caribbean at the invitation of the 'rich and lonely gentleman of the week !'



    ... which brings us full circle to the topic of this thread. Susie Homemaker is more responsible because she will be HELD responsible ! Members of congress and state legislators are never held responsible, because most American voters never connect the dots.
    Sniff. Thank you Melonie. You won't be sorry. I make a GREAT mojito.

    As usual you're right. The average head of household has to deal with consequences. Congress and the legislatures usually do not because around 90% have more or less safe seats and rarely if ever have to face a serious opponent.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    In all these threads dealing with this program and that; as Obama stumbles around trying to spend us out of a recession ; the ultimate question is a simple one : Who is smarter when it comes to spending YOUR money; the government or YOU ? Do you need the government to tell you what kind of car to drive ? What kind of health care to buy ?
    When I buy a car, health care, or any other product, I would much rather have the government set standards for the safety of the product, than to allow anyone to sell any product they want without any government involvement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    If conservative principles had been followed by Bush, we'd be well on our way out of this mess.
    Which conservative principles were not followed by Bush and how do you know they would have gotten us out of this mess rather than making it worse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    In 1919 there was a post-W.W. I recession. We recovered through Treasury Secretary Mellon's tax cuts.
    Hoover turned a recession into a depression by raising taxes. FDR prolonged it by raising taxes.
    No, the economy grew substantially during President Roosevelt's administration. There was one brief downturn when Roosevelt cut spending to try and balance the budget, but other than that, the economy grew very rapidly.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    JFK generated economic growth by cutting taxes. So did Reagan. So did Bush.
    Overall, the economy performed better in the decades before Reagan cut taxes than it did after. The economy grew more in every decade since the Great Depression, than it did in the 1980's, except for the 1970's. The economy grew more after Clinton raised taxes than it did after Reagan and Bush cut taxes. Bush's economic policies turned out to be disastrous for the US.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Who seriously thinks that allowing Bush's tax cuts to expire will cause the economy to improve ? Or that raising taxes further will generate growth REGARDLESS of what laudable programs those taxes go to fund ?
    I think it will perform better than before the tax cuts expired.


    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Stoner View Post
    Why are so many of you so willing to surrender so much personal freedom to a bunch of ninnies who prove over and over again that all they really care about is getting themselves reelected ?

    If you boil all our discussion down to its simplest terms, that is the issue. It never ceases to amaze me that the same people who demand freedom over their bodies ( who to sleep with, whether or not to smoke pot, freedom to choose on abortion, whom to marry) do NOT demand the same freedom with regard to their wallets and purses. The very people who decry government surveillance that probably will NEVER impact them in the slightest are blithely willing to let government control their health care. Folks who would rebel at being told how high their skirt could be or what shoes to wear are apparently willing to let the government decide what kind of car they can drive.

    Why are you competent to make one kind of choice but not another ?
    There are no plans for government to control our health care. For those people who do get their health care paid for by the government, I'm sure they're much happier than not getting any health care at all, which would be the alternative for many of those people on government health plans.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    There are no plans for government to control our health care
    Obviously you've been listening to GE owned media ( a corporation whose medical equipment division has a huge vested interest in nationalized health care) and haven't read the house health care bill !

    The economy grew more in every decade since the Great Depression, than it did in the 1980's, except for the 1970's. The economy grew more after Clinton raised taxes than it did after Reagan and Bush cut taxes. Bush's economic policies turned out to be disastrous for the US.
    Again you are trying to float the idea that the official US gov't statistic for GDP is equivalent to real economic growth. I have already addressed this fallacy in another thread ... and without this fallacy being accepted as fact your argument has no merit.

    ~
    Last edited by Melonie; 08-13-2009 at 04:28 AM.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Well Eric...pick your ideal country, with the perfect blend of Social, regulatory, and fiscal policy, and show us the model for your unfeterred utopia. I'm keen to know.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by hockeybobby View Post
    Well Eric...pick your ideal country, with the perfect blend of Social, regulatory, and fiscal policy, and show us the model for your unfeterred utopia. I'm keen to know.
    Obviously there is no such place but several come close: Switzerland, Singapore, Hong Kong, Dubai, Australia and to some extent, the U.S.

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    Default Re: The ultimate question is a simple one.

    Quote Originally Posted by eagle2 View Post
    When I buy a car, health care, or any other product, I would much rather have the government set standards for the safety of the product, than to allow anyone to sell any product they want without any government involvement.


    Which conservative principles were not followed by Bush and how do you know they would have gotten us out of this mess rather than making it worse?



    No, the economy grew substantially during President Roosevelt's administration. There was one brief downturn when Roosevelt cut spending to try and balance the budget, but other than that, the economy grew very rapidly.





    Overall, the economy performed better in the decades before Reagan cut taxes than it did after. The economy grew more in every decade since the Great Depression, than it did in the 1980's, except for the 1970's. The economy grew more after Clinton raised taxes than it did after Reagan and Bush cut taxes. Bush's economic policies turned out to be disastrous for the US.



    I think it will perform better than before the tax cuts expired.




    There are no plans for government to control our health care. For those people who do get their health care paid for by the government, I'm sure they're much happier than not getting any health care at all, which would be the alternative for many of those people on government health plans.
    Can I make up my own facts too ? Can I look at the same charts you do and just see what I want to see ?

    Generally speaking, I do not have a problem with government safety standards.

    If, if Bush had cut taxes in half including the payroll tax, we would be in the middle of an economic boom. Assuming no bailouts and no stimulus packages, we would have a LOWER deficit than Bush's last one.

    As for economic growth under FDR, there was some and some of that undoubtedly resulted from government stimulus but what REALLY did the trick was increased defense spending starting in 1939. While FDR cut spending in 1937 that was only part of the picture. The Fed also cut the money supply and FDR raised taxes.

    As for Reagan's tax cuts you are grossly misreading the picture. Reagan's tax cuts were still substantially in effect during the 8 years of Clinton. Der Slickmeister trimmed them back but hardly went back to a top rate of 70%. More importantly he cut capital gains taxes to 10%.

    Could you kindly explain how RAISING taxes will help the economy ? How will removing money from the hands of taxpayers increase consumption, savings, investment and small business formation ? Could you please point to one period in our history when raising taxes INCREASED economic growth ? How do you explain the INCREASE in government revenues after JFK's tax cuts; after Reagan's tax cuts;
    after Clinton's Capital Gains Cuts ? There seems to be some kind of intellectual myopia that affects Libs that makes them incapable of recognizing that BEFORE money can be taxed it has to be earned. BEFORE it can be earned somebody has to be employed or has to have invested it and BEFORE that can happen some private citizen; human or corporate has to have the money in the first place and have a rational expectation of a reasonable return thereon. Instead, the government lately has just beem printing it and passing it out. How long do you seriously think that can last before the whole economy comes a cropper ?

    As for health care, you obviously haven't read Obama's plan. Especially the part about the "public option". The part that according to Obama is nothing to worry about because it will duplicate the booming success of the Post Office. HIS words, not mine. Essentially his plan wants to duplicate and expand Medicare which in turn will screw ( Excuse me ! I mean "control costs" ) hospitals, doctors, labs and drug companies by reducing reimbursement which will inevitably result in rationing.
    Last edited by Eric Stoner; 08-13-2009 at 07:36 AM.

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